Cyprus-Forum.com

[grokked]

The comments are certainly more interesting than Simon Tisdall's article !

-----------------


Turkey starts to love its neighbours

The rapprochement policies of Ahmet Davutoglu are making a splash in the region, though Israel relations remain prickly

*
Comments (36)
* Buzz up!
* Digg it

* Simon Tisdall
*
o Simon Tisdall
o guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 12 January 2010 20.00 GMT
o Article history

Ahmet Davutoglu has made quite a splash since his appointment last year as Turkey's foreign minister. Formerly chief foreign policy adviser to prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the dapper professor dubbed the "Turkish Kissinger" has energetically pursued the ruling AKP party's trademark policy of "zero problems with neighbours", a policy he first articulated in a 2001 book, Strategic Depth.

Given the torrid history of Ottoman involvement in the Balkans, southern Caucasus and the Arab lands, good-neighbourly relations are not a given for modern Turkey. But in the past year, Davutoglu has led a drive to strengthen ties to Iraq's new government, mend fences with Syria (with which Turkey nearly went to war ten years ago), and forge an as yet incomplete rapprochement with Armenia, another ancient foe.

Behind this drive lies the belief that Turkey, nearly a century after the Ottoman empire imploded, is destined once again to become a regional power with global influence. For Davutoglu, this ambition entails a "comprehensive" approach embracing enhanced economic, cultural and social ties as well as political and security relations. Hence Turkey's multiplying regional trade and energy deals, not least with Russia, and its lifting of visa requirements for citizens of Syria, Lebanon, Romania and several other countries.

Not everyone wants to be friends. Interviewed in London yesterday ahead of a meeting with foreign secretary David Miliband, Davutoglu spoke of three complex challenges where progress in 2010 remains problematic. The first is Cyprus, where long-running, UN-brokered talks on reunification are inching towards some sort of denouement. Analysts suggest that if a deal is not done by April, when presidential elections are due in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, all bets are off.

"We have reached an historic moment in the negotiations. That's one reason for coming to London now," Davutoglu said, noting Britain's role as a guarantor of any settlement. The Turkish Cypriot side had introduced a promising new package last week, he said, including a so-called "cross voting" scheme that would give the two communities a quota in each other's elections.

Although the initial Greek Cypriot reaction was to reject the package, Davutoglu insisted that was not the end of the matter. "We know first of all the Greek Cypriots always say 'No!' Then they say 'No-o-o'. Then they say 'No-maybe' ... I am optimistic. We need an intensified international effort by the EU, by the UN, by both sides, and by Greece and Turkey and Britain as guarantors, like we had in 2004." He had personally contacted US secretary of state Hillary Clinton and the UN secretary-general to generate momentum for a deal, he said. Meanwhile, the Turkish and Greek Cypriot presidents had embarked on six day-long negotiating sessions to try and find a way through.

Turning to Iran, a particular British preoccupation, Davutoglu said his advice to Miliband, if asked, would be to eschew more public name-calling and pursue discreet negotiations on the nuclear issue and other matters of concern. He said Turkey was at pains to maintain a friendly relationship with its Persian neighbour.

"The situation in Iran is not good, is not compatible with our vision," Davutoglu said. "We don't want nuclear proliferation in the region, we don't want nuclear weapons in Iran or Israel or anywhere. Second, every country has the right to pursue nuclear power for peaceful purposes. Third, we also don't want more sanctions [on Iran]. Sanctions hurt ordinary people and neighbouring countries.

"We don't forget the very bad experience in Iraq. We would advise intensified negotiations through diplomacy. An absence of mutual trust is the problem." If asked, Turkey would be happy to facilitate a constructive dialogue with Iran, he said.

Davutoglu reserved his sharpest words for Israel, with which Turkey, unusually, has enjoyed cordial relations in the past but with which Erdogan fell out noisily after last year's attack on Gaza. Verbal hostilities resumed this week after the Turkish prime minister called Israel a threat to peace and accused it of acting disproportionately. Israel hit back angrily, in effect telling Erdogan to mind his own business.

"When Israel follows a policy of peace, we have good relations," Davutoglu said. Before Gaza, Turkey had mediated indirect talks between Syria and Israel and made "remarkable" progress, he said. But the Israeli incursion had scuppered the talks. "That attack changed many things ... It created a very unstable situation in the region" that even Barack Obama had been unable to overcome. Since then, there had been further "provocations" such as additional Jewish settlement building in east Jerusalem.

"If Israel wants peace, they must learn that others have rights that must be respected," he said. Davutoglu pauses and smiles. But it's clear that when it comes to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, there are limits to even his highly developed sense of good-neighbourliness.


This article was published on guardian.co.uk at 20.00 GMT on Tuesday 12 January 2010.



COMMENTS:
ThomasWhitmore ThomasWhitmore

12 Jan 2010, 8:24PM

Thanks, Simon - a thoroughly interesting article all round.

And good on Ahmet Davutoglu in keeping up the pressure on Israel - especially after the gross inhumanity of the Gaza onslaught.

"If Israel wants peace, they must learn that others have rights that must be respected," he said. Davutoglu pauses and smiles. But it's clear that when it comes to Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, there are limits to even his highly developed sense of good-neighbourliness.


pietroilpittore pietroilpittore

12 Jan 2010, 8:32PM

We know first of all the Greek Cypriots always say 'No!' Then they say 'No-o-o'. Then they say 'No-maybe' ... I am optimistic.

Remind you of anything?

ThomasWhitmore ThomasWhitmore

12 Jan 2010, 8:37PM

pietroilpittore

Remind you of anything?

Well, err... lots of things. Of what does it remind you?

Insightful Insightful

12 Jan 2010, 8:39PM

When the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide,, for the mass murder of Kurds and for the Invasion of Cyprus.. then maybe they will be in a position to lecture morals on others... it is that simple...

In the meanwhile Israel would be stupid if it allowed Gaza´s Hammas
rulers the means the need to keep attacking Isareli civilians...

If they do not want confrontation with Israel they are doing a great job in hiding it.. if you pick a fight do not come crying when the other side reacts...

And for those Gazans that want peace and quite I say do not elect a terrorist organization seeking the destruction of your neighbor if you want good neighborly relations.. it seems simple enough!

AnotherBloke AnotherBloke

12 Jan 2010, 8:44PM

@Insightful

Take it the nom de plume is ironic? Never noticed the Israeliphiles whinging about the Armenian Genocide while Turkey was a friend of Israel?

Turkeys acts vis-a-vis the Armenians and Kurds are deplorable. But so are the Israel actions vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

And for a Terrorist organisation Hamas are rank amateurs in comparison to the IDF.

IllegalCombatAnt IllegalCombatAnt

12 Jan 2010, 8:44PM
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted.

*
starzy starzy

12 Jan 2010, 8:45PM

So Mr Tisdall, a champion of Turkey in all your past articles on the Turkey. Not only do you conveniently ignore the torture of its dissenters within its borders, but minimise its illegal invasion, ethnic cleansing, and occupation of a half of a foreign sovereign state named Cyprus, to a mere triviality. And so you think Turkey's latest ludicrous demand that a Cyprus settlement incorporate two, yes, TWO FIR's for the island as "a promising package" then you are a disgrace to journalism.

wedgwood wedgwood

12 Jan 2010, 8:51PM

Given Turkey's recent history with regard to it's Kurdish minority as well as the Kurds outside it's borders, the word Hypocrisy springs to mind.Which also applies to those who condemn Israel but excuse Turkey.

IllegalCombatAnt IllegalCombatAnt

12 Jan 2010, 8:52PM

Insightful 12 Jan 2010, 8:39PM

Unsightful,

When the Turks apologize for the Armenian Genocide,, for the mass murder of Kurds and for the Invasion of Cyprus.. then maybe they will be in a position to lecture morals on others... it is that simple...

No it is not that simple.

These are separate, unconnected issues. The Turks must apologise (or better make some sort of restitution) for the Armenian Holocaust however at the same time they can - and must - take action on Israel's thuggish behaviour.

stevehill stevehill

12 Jan 2010, 8:54PM

Turkey starts to love its neighbours

(Pause for quick google).

Nope. They still illegally occupy Northern Cyprus, part of the EU. They till deny the Armenian genocide and lock up people who mention it. They still ban internet access to sites seeking to argue with Islamic creationist theory involving plagiarised photos of hand-tied fishing flies.

That said, they do have a point or two on Israel, so there's hope. But it's a long way from making them saints. Or remotely credible candidates for EU membership.

ThomasWhitmore ThomasWhitmore

12 Jan 2010, 8:54PM

AnotherBloke and IllegalCombatAnt

Indeed - I agree unreservedly on all the points you make.

tuttifrutti tuttifrutti

12 Jan 2010, 9:08PM

First lets get the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' out of the way. Only the Turkish press refers to this illegally occupied part of the island as such. I expect more from the Guardian.
Secondly you refer to the nature of the Turkish Cypriot proposals, quoting Davutoglu as saying they were promising, and included a cross-voting system for elections. You fail to mention that that was a proposal by Greek Cypriots. The purpose of this package of proposals was to put 8 or 9 counteracting requests in directed by Turkey. Requests such as the right of Turkish nationals to settle anywhere in Cyprus, a right that would be denied to Greek Cypriots in any future solution. A request to have 2 separate flight information regions. In effect a confederation, not a Bizonal Bicommunal federation as envisaged from the high level agreements of the late 70s.
What really upsets me is you devote the next paragraph to Davutoglu's mocking of the Greek Cypriots understandable rejection of these proposals. Even Hurriyet knew the game with these proposals, that they were insincere and would never be accepted.
The Turks are insincere in their rapprochement egged on by sloppy journalism and immoral politicians. Turkey, wants a separate country in the north of Cyprus. If it can't have that it will press for 'as close' to that as they can get away with, this is not reunification, this is not rapprochement.

SackTheJuggler SackTheJuggler

12 Jan 2010, 9:10PM

Where do you get the idea that relations between Turkey and Israel are prickly? Because a Turkish minister says something? What are the practical implications of this alleged prickliness apart from a few gestures? Because it seems to me that while the governments might exchange heated words for domestic consumption they probably have a good chuckle about it later at the embassy cocktail party.

'"They ask us why we don't cut our ties with Israel," Mr Erdogan said last week. "We are running the Turkish Republic, not a grocery store." (BBC 16/1/09)

AnotherBloke AnotherBloke

12 Jan 2010, 9:13PM

@SackTheJuggler

What are the practical implications of this alleged prickliness apart from a few gestures?

Fair point - there is a long history of Politicians in many countries (re- Bill Clinton talking left while walking right) making nice noises but not followed up with anything in the line of positive action.

What is the current State vis-a-vis military cooperation between Turkey and Israel - I gather the Israel Air Force used Turkey in the past for training purposes - does that still continue?

stoneman stoneman

12 Jan 2010, 9:14PM

I'm afraid for Simon Tisdall's case Turkey has shown no interest in withdrawing its troops and settlers from Cyprus. Turkey's continuing demands for a two-state solution on the island have led to an impasse in the current talks and have all but condemned them to failure. In the meantime Turkey continues to occupy the island with 40,000 troops and has imported 150,000 settlers from Anatolia. It continues to exploit Greek-owned property on the island and refuses the right of return to the 200,000 Greek Cypriot refugees forcibly expelled from their homes. Meanwhile the destruction of the Greek and Christian cultural heritage of the island under Turkish control, continues apace.

In a further act of "friendship" to its neighbours Turkey continues to violate Greek air and sea space with its fighter jets in frequent acts of provocation in an attempt to "claim" the Aegean as a Turkish zone. With friends like this...

Simon Tisdall's article falls under the banner of wishful thinking I'm afraid. One only has to look at Turkey's continuing denial of the Armenian genocide and continuing persecution of its own Kurdish population to realise how little has changed in Turkish thinking.

Simon Tisdall does a disservice to those who would dearly like to see a less belligerent Turkey. Turkey needs to be judged by its actions and not by its words. I suggest Simon Tisdall study the continuing Turkish occupation of Cyprus a little more closely if he wants to gauge Turkish sincerity towards its neighbours.

robofluffer robofluffer

12 Jan 2010, 9:29PM

"Davutoglu insisted that was not the end of the matter. "We know first of all the Greek Cypriots always say 'No!' Then they say 'No-o-o'. Then they say 'No-maybe"

The opposite of the Turks, who say Yes then immediately start to backtrack and make new demands and whine about everything.

See their grandtanding over Rasmussen and NATO. That is why it will an absolute disaster if they are ever allowed in the EU and incidentally why the countries who have been under the Ottoman heel, Bulgaria, Greece and Austria will never allow it.

MartynInEurope MartynInEurope

12 Jan 2010, 9:32PM

Ah yes, don't look at the concerns about the plight of the Palestinians, point at something else, PDQ.

Ah that'll do; the Kurds. The term brass neck doesn't even begin to describe the blatant deflection that some people use when issues regarding the plight of the Palestinians are raised and discussed.

Leftisbest Leftisbest

12 Jan 2010, 9:44PM

It is only right the that illegal invasion and colonilisation of cyprus is spoken about here.

It is only right that the kurds and armeians are mentioned.

Apparently Turkey is reaching out to its neighbours whilst commiting terrible human rights abuses at home and abroad.

In simon Tisdall's case it see no evil hear no evil.

shiran shiran

12 Jan 2010, 9:48PM

IllegalCombatAnt : Any decent nation is bound to have prickly relations with Israel. Which nation could possibly have friendly relations...

Actually most countries in the world fortunately still have very good relations with Israel because they know that half of the points on your list are untrue, and the other half even if true and condemnable, are chicken feed compared to the deaths and suffering caused by:
US/UK in Iraq/Afghanistan
Russia in Chechnya
Turkey in Kurdistan
China in Tibet
Sudan in Drafur
Morroco's occupation in Western Sahara
Iran in Iran
The Arab world in the Arab World
etc etc

In other words if Israel's behaviour was your yardstick of unacceptibilty, nobody would be talking to anyone.

raymonddelauney raymonddelauney

12 Jan 2010, 10:05PM

Turning to Iran, a particular British preoccupation, Davutoglu said his advice to Miliband, if asked, would be to eschew more public name-calling and pursue discreet negotiations on the nuclear issue and other matters of concern. He said Turkey was at pains to maintain a friendly relationship with its Persian neighbour.

The British government could of course speak to the Turks about Cyprus, Kurdistan or even the Armenian massacres from the moral high ground. Well we could if our foreign policy were rational and fair.

If we were we to recognise our perverse involvement in the ethnic-cleansing that took place in Diego Garcia. Or acknowledge our role in the disasters in both Iraq and Afghanistan; not to mention our complicit silence in facilitating the supply munitions to Gaza.

To think New Labour started off with an "ethical" foreign policy.

TheWry TheWry

12 Jan 2010, 10:05PM

"Turkey starts to love its neighbours" - well it would - now Christmas is over, I bet it can't believe it's luck.

AnotherBloke AnotherBloke

12 Jan 2010, 10:08PM

@shiran

except israel is the only one on your list that we are constantly hearing about how democratic, freedom loving they are

MacCosham MacCosham

12 Jan 2010, 10:08PM

When discussing Turkey's new policy of "no problems with neigbors" , one should not forget that in allmost all cases, these problems were created by Turkey itself....

GreenRevolution GreenRevolution

12 Jan 2010, 10:20PM

Turkey is making a lot of money out of the Islamic Republic so why should they not advise the British foreign ministry against rocking the boat.

Many Mullahs and corrupt government officials of the Islamic Republic also enjoy Turkish banking services, all be it Turkey is one of several countries offering. Dubai, Malaysia, Switzerland,Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Austria, Lebanon and the UK(until recently) China & Russia have also provided such services.

Turkey is infested with Iranian agents and front companies.

My advice to the Turkish government is this; we are watching and we will remember!

morbleau morbleau

12 Jan 2010, 10:27PM

Now Turkey is determined to be on good terms with its neighbours maybe it will make amends for the first ethnic cleansing of the 20th century.
No not the Armenians but its Greek population that had lived in Turkey for a thousand years.

Turkey might be reaching out to the arab and islamic world but if it is interested in good relations with the Europe it has a lot of skeletons in its cupboard, and these need to be dealt with.

And as to the agreement with Armenia, well if someone holds a gun to your head you will sign anything. The fact that Turkey has maintained a blockade for 20 years of that country even after its genocide is nothing short of astounding (what would have been the reaction if Germany had done the same after the holocaust).

Armenians in America were very against Armenia signing any rapprochement with Turkey for good reasons. Let us see whether the border actually does open now to end Turkey's outrageous blockade of Armenia, a landlocked and very poor country.
That is the least that Turkey can do. It might even start thinking about reparations for the million Armenians killed.

ChrispyDuck ChrispyDuck

12 Jan 2010, 11:10PM

People seem to be forgetting that the 1974 Turkish invasion was in direct response to a Greek military junta backed coup staged by the Cypriot National Guard to deposed the democratically elected Cypriot president and instal Greek Nationalist Nikos Sampson in his place. The coup resulted in intercommunal conflict between the island's Greek Cypriot majority and Turkish Cypriot minority which left about 350 Turkish Cypriots and 200 Greek Cypriots dead.

tuttifrutti tuttifrutti

12 Jan 2010, 11:29PM

ChrispyDuck, the coup was an act of stupidity and in some ways the Turkish invasion would have been legitimate, but only if the intervention was to restore the constitution and then withdraw which clearly hasn't happened. Partition is the goal, always has been, still is, just trying to dupe the world into thinking it's reunification..

MiddleEast MiddleEast

12 Jan 2010, 11:32PM

Firstly Thanks to Simon Tisdall for this great article.

Those who write about Turkey Genocide and cyprus invasion you all just write what you heard, Study History. YOU DONT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT TURKEY.

Cyprus was ottoman Turks land and it was divided because of greeks, Greece started the war killing the Turkish and greek Cypriots and big brother Turkey couldnt watch. ask a true greek cypriot and they will tell you how greece killed many.
Turkey 100% legal to keep troops in Nothern Cyprus and no one even the EU cant do anything about it. Northern Cyprus is Turks land and it will always be get this in your brain.

When it comes to armenia, Turks are saying bring all your proof open your archives and we will too and lets bring international profesors historians and we will see if there is genocide if there is then we are willing to pay the highest penalty , but the armenians are refusing and photo editing fake pictures of ottomans genocide and with the help of EU they are spreading fake genocide to the world.

Lastly the kurds. Turkey has always looked after the kurds, in Turkey there is kurdish tv chanel, kurdish top politicians and many more. when saddam huseyn gas bombed the kurds Turkey opened the border so innocent women and children can live in Turkey and they were given Turksh citezenship. if turks realy wanted to clean the kurdish ethnic it would have been complete by now, Turks love Kurds and Kurds Love Turks, there is only 1 problem pkk militants controled by US&EU but turks will sort that out soon.

Israel made a big mistake by killing tens of thousends of innocent women and children in palastine, No turk can watch anyone getting killed.

p.s 96% of turks dont want EU. there are 300million turks turkic in the world. Turkbirdev.org Turkish Union has started many years ago but it will bigin in 2015 approx 7 Turkic country.

morbleau morbleau

12 Jan 2010, 11:58PM

@MiddleEast

Thanks for that interesting history lesson. Is that what you learned at school in Ankara? Or did you get your information from the Turkish embassy?

I did enjoy your sentence,

Turkey has always looked after the kurds,

well maybe you meant the Turkish Army has always looked after the kurds.

As someone who has travelled throughout Eastern Turkey i know all about the roadblocks and taking Kurds off the buses to check their credentials, as well as the terror that the army inspires in ordinary kurds. Many areas are ruled by what might be described as martial law. In my home town i'm not used to seeing armoured cars and gun toting militia and police riding around, but the kurds do. They also have to contend with the knock of the secret police.
I won't even go into the carpet bombing by the Turkish air force of Kurdish areas in Iraq.

Even foreigners who get too close to the locals are not spared the attentions of the military.

Turkey should decide whether it wants to throw in its lot with the likes of Ahmadinejad or Europe. Turkey went down the road of democratisation and secularisation. Why is it throwing that away? Cocking a snook at Europe because Turkey ihas been stymied for membership will not serve Turkey's interests or economy.

The Turkish people need to throw the islamist government out before it causes irreparable damage to Turkey.

ThomasWhitmore ThomasWhitmore

13 Jan 2010, 12:20AM

SackTheJuggler

Where do you get the idea that relations between Turkey and Israel are prickly? Because a Turkish minister says something? What are the practical implications of this alleged prickliness apart from a few gestures? Because it seems to me that while the governments might exchange heated words for domestic consumption they probably have a good chuckle about it later at the embassy cocktail party.

'"They ask us why we don't cut our ties with Israel," Mr Erdogan said last week. "We are running the Turkish Republic, not a grocery store." (BBC 16/1/09)

Sorry STJ, but not only are you talking total nonsense - you're also a year out of date with your info. It's Jan 2010 now, or hadn't you noticed? Try reading these latest news articles:

Turkey: Israeli Foreign Ministry crossed its boundaries (Israel's YNet)

Netanyahu: Turkey drift toward Iran is worrying (Israel's Ha'aretz)

And these two items posted online yesterday by Reuters:

Turkey says again Israel Gaza attack hurt peace

Turkey renewed its criticism on Tuesday of Israel for its 2008 invasion of Gaza, saying it had scuttled a potential peace deal, despite an Israeli warning that Turkey's stance was detrimental to their relations.

Turkey demands Israeli apology as ties sour

Turkey demanded an apology from Israel on Tuesday over what it called the discourteous treatment of its ambassador, further souring ties between the two regional powers on the eve of a visit by Israel's defense minister.

No, STJ - I don't think there's much chuckling going on at any "embassy cocktail party" right now.

AmViennaVA AmViennaVA

13 Jan 2010, 12:22AM

It is interesting that the list of the countries that Turkey is starting to 'love' does not include any of those that they occupied and are now members of the EU (Cyprus, Greece, Bulgaria, etc.). It is also interesting that at no point is there any indication that Turkey plans to abide by the agreements she reached in negotiations with the EU.

So, perhaps the first step for Turkey is to actually abide by its agreements vis-a-vis Cyprus. Then stop trying to change the borders to its West. Then acknowledge the massacres of the Christians from 1895 through 1955. Then improve its internal attitudes towards the Kurds and Christians.

greyfoxer greyfoxer

13 Jan 2010, 12:31AM

i would like to give a lecture to remind you what happened in the past but dont have nough time n space so listen up!!!we went to cyprus coz greek comunist army government were killing innocent turkish babies,families,elder people.we didnt do genocide to any nation including armenians. we did kill member of pkk coz they were shooting our soldiers.so when you westerns dont kill anyone in the centr of london coz of he looks suspicious and when u dont put innocent people in jail in guantanamo for years and when you dont invade countries for your interest and when you dont kill innocent kids on the beach as israel have been doing then come to me , we will talk about morality and dignity or genocide. We give you a humanity lesson at all stages so examine your mind before u talk nonsense. what can i say `bout eu. eu is even against itself and you know that and everyone else is aware of that.i assume that eu will not have any power in ten years when it comes to international relations.you cant even decide price of a pack of milk, what kind of union are you talking about? I will tell u what , eu will need turkey than turkey needs eu. by the way i was born in east of turkey and i used live there for 20 years so dont try to teach me my hometown. we have less problems with in turkey than uk has in belfast , we dont kill babies in cradle and we dont and never bombed religious places where people gather to pray. i was almost forgetting we have more freedom of speech than you do in your pro-democracy selfish world. at least we dont order our journalist to write what we say or what we think coz your mod did and is doing for journalists who travelled to afghanistan and tried to write what they saw...if the milk turn out to be sour we aint kinda pussy to drink it. that includes everything.cheers

Leftisbest Leftisbest

13 Jan 2010, 12:33AM

Countries that Turkey loves.

1. Iran- yes the regime that steals elections, kills, rapes and tortures its people.

2. Syria- doesn't bother with election stealing. The great thing about the Syrians they don't have the pretence of being a democracy. This dictatorship imprisons and kills its own people. Then when they can find the time they arm hizbollah and kill all Lebanese who oppose them.

And Simon Tisdall celebrates this like it is a good achievement.

shame on him

greyfoxer greyfoxer

13 Jan 2010, 12:38AM

the countries us and uk like
1- jordan - no democracy
2-egypt - no democracy
3-saudi arabia - no democracy

and shame on you LEFTISBEST , WHAT SCHOOL OF HISTORY DID YOU STUDY?

ShoeThrower ShoeThrower

13 Jan 2010, 12:49AM

and just to continue.
4 - uae - no democracy
5 - qatar - no democracy
6 - bahrain - no democracy
7 - lybia (after compensation paid) - no democracy
8 - morocco - no democracy
9 - israel (no comment required)

EmreKoc EmreKoc

13 Jan 2010, 1:02AM

Then stop trying to change the borders to its West. Then acknowledge the massacres of the Christians from 1895 through 1955. Then improve its internal attitudes towards the Kurds and Christians.

Anyone who got decent history lessons knows that the definition of "massacre" applies to 1686-2120 AD period. Therefore you are totally "wrong"

[grokked]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... rus-israel