Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

I think it's incredibly revealing that the "average TC" would brazenly sacrifice his own well-being in this way - and hence (and far worse) the well-being of those closest to him, those dependent on him - who are given no say in the matter.

It reveals, quite starkly, your sick mentality and why it's probably best to keep you at arms length, in the open prison you've constructed for yourselves.

For some TCs there are things worse than death,MP...

To depend on the kindness of the GCs is ONE of them...

If you really want to understand their mentality,open your mind, and go and study the 1955-74 period of our recent history...

Having access to a defibrillator during a cardiac arrest isn't "worse than death" but the difference between life and death. You're not depending on kindness from a perceived enemy but on state-of-the-art medical equipment; equipment which may not necessarily be to hand in the north, to prevent your wife becoming a widow, your children orphans.

I can't believe you're even trying to justify Viewpoint's mentality; and point to a period two generations ago to do so.

I am not justifying Viewpoint's mentality,I am just telling you that it is not only confined to VP...And if you are really curious as to why some TCs feel that way,I am pointing you in the right direction...But it is easier to dismiss people as mad than try to understand where they are coming from...

[YFred]

I think it's incredibly revealing that the "average TC" would brazenly sacrifice his own well-being in this way - and hence (and far worse) the well-being of those closest to him, those dependent on him - who are given no say in the matter.

It reveals, quite starkly, your sick mentality and why it's probably best to keep you at arms length, in the open prison you've constructed for yourselves.

For some TCs there are things worse than death,MP...

To depend on the kindness of the GCs is ONE of them...

If you really want to understand their mentality,open your mind, and go and study the 1955-74 period of our recent history...

Having access to a defibrillator during a cardiac arrest isn't "worse than death" but the difference between life and death. You're not depending on kindness from a perceived enemy but on state-of-the-art medical equipment; equipment which may not necessarily be to hand in the north, to prevent your wife becoming a widow, your children orphans.

I can't believe you're even trying to justify Viewpoint's mentality; and point to a period two generations ago to do so.

I am not justifying Viewpoint's mentality,I am just telling you that it is not only confined to VP...And if you are really curious as to why some TCs feel that way,I am pointing you in the right direction...But it is easier to dismiss people as mad than try to understand where they are coming from...

Bir, that is very curious, because normally it's the victim that blames themselves for the predicament they find themselves in. Only in Cyprus the oppressor actually blames the oppressed and then blames them for their predicament. To add insult to injury, the whole world accepts it.
It just goes to show what a comedy club the UN has become.

[Kifeas]

Sorry,DT,I just noticed this thread...

Some time ago I would've said "typical AKP mentality,they just behave as if they are horse-trading"...But this new Foreign minister,Ahmet Davutoglu,seems to be a really clever, on-the -ball type...He must know that the free access to Turkish citizens stuff would never be accepted...I think he is practising "Shock and Awe" tactics...The expectation is the GC will be so shocked they will give concessions elsewhere where it really matters...There is no other explanation...

And I think, Bir, that a FM minister of a(ny) country, believing his opponents are so stupid so as to fell into such cheap traps, is not such a clever foreign minister in the first place, but rather only a pathetically arrogant one.

Someone should explain Davutoglu that if no solution is reached -a definite outcome seeing his proposals, all sides will loose -including his own country, and no silly "shock and awe" tactics will inhibit the GCs from "blowing up" its EU accession process.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir
I can understand your point; if like you, you have experience of the past but even at VPs own admission he was born in the UK and never experienced any of of the troubles himself so therefore all his information about the Greek Cypriots is at best second hand. My parents lost members of their families through war but didn’t spend their lives hating and blaming; they moved on and it’s about time some of the people on this forum did the same.

Jimski

Personally I have no problem depending on GC kindness...Jimski...
In 2007 I spent a week in the RoC depending very much on the kindness of one special GC I have come to call my True Cypriot Brother..I will be in his debt forever,and i hope one day I will get the opportunity to return his amazing generosity,kindness and hospitality...Viewpoint is here to represent the official trnc way of seeing this conflict...That does not mean everything he says should be dismissed as propaganda...The period I was pointing to was the period which shaped a lot of TCs' mentality...You can make an effort to understand it,or take the easy way out and dismiss it as hatred or madness best left in the past...Simply wishing it away will not work...

[Kifeas]

Bir
I can understand your point; if like you, you have experience of the past but even at VPs own admission he was born in the UK and never experienced any of of the troubles himself so therefore all his information about the Greek Cypriots is at best second hand. My parents lost members of their families through war but didn’t spend their lives hating and blaming; they moved on and it’s about time some of the people on this forum did the same.

Jimski

Personally I have no problem depending on GC kindness...Jimski...
In 2007 I spent a week in the RoC depending very much on the kindness of one special GC I have come to call my True Cypriot Brother..I will be in his debt forever,and i hope one day I will get the opportunity to return his amazing generosity,kindness and hospitality...Viewpoint is here to represent the official trnc way of seeing this conflict...That does not mean everything he says should be dismissed as propaganda...The period I was pointing to was the period which shaped a lot of TCs' mentality...You can make an effort to understand it,or take the easy way out and dismiss it as hatred or madness best left in the past...Simply wishing it away will not work...

Brother Bir, how are you?
Thanks a lot for your kind words, but I must tell you I honestly feel I have done nothing so special, for you to be indebted to me. I had the pleasure to enjoy your company and get to know you on a personal level, and realize how an honest, genuine and sensible person you are. It did help me to understand how much you also love this country, and the injustices committed against both you on a personal level, and as a member of the TC community. I will definitely love the idea to see here again, and be sure the feelings are mutual.

[BirKibrisli]

I think it's incredibly revealing that the "average TC" would brazenly sacrifice his own well-being in this way - and hence (and far worse) the well-being of those closest to him, those dependent on him - who are given no say in the matter.

It reveals, quite starkly, your sick mentality and why it's probably best to keep you at arms length, in the open prison you've constructed for yourselves.

For some TCs there are things worse than death,MP...

To depend on the kindness of the GCs is ONE of them...

If you really want to understand their mentality,open your mind, and go and study the 1955-74 period of our recent history...

Having access to a defibrillator during a cardiac arrest isn't "worse than death" but the difference between life and death. You're not depending on kindness from a perceived enemy but on state-of-the-art medical equipment; equipment which may not necessarily be to hand in the north, to prevent your wife becoming a widow, your children orphans.

I can't believe you're even trying to justify Viewpoint's mentality; and point to a period two generations ago to do so.

I am not justifying Viewpoint's mentality,I am just telling you that it is not only confined to VP...And if you are really curious as to why some TCs feel that way,I am pointing you in the right direction...But it is easier to dismiss people as mad than try to understand where they are coming from...

Bir, that is very curious, because normally it's the victim that blames themselves for the predicament they find themselves in. Only in Cyprus the oppressor actually blames the oppressed and then blames them for their predicament. To add insult to injury, the whole world accepts it.
It just goes to show what a comedy club the UN has become.

The trouble is,YFred,nothing is black and white in this bloody conflict.
The oppressor and the victim have often changed places over the long years we have lived together...What is not helping is both sides trying to paint themselves whiter than white,while painting the other darker than black!..This must stop if we are to build mutual understanding,trust and respect...I am trying to point to the period where the TCs were most oppressed by the GCs...People can choose to accept it or deny it...The period after 74 was particularly traumatic for the GCs...We need to acknowledge that and show empathy and understanding...It is wrong to expect too much from the UN...We need to solve our problems amongst ourselves in a realistic fashion....When I say "ourselves" that includes Britain,Greece and Turkey as well...We can't escape our past....We must learn to deal with it openly,honestly,and humanely...Cypriots have nothing to gain by accusing and insulting each other...The status quo benefits Britain,Greece and Turkey...They must step up to he mark and discharge their responsibility as guarantors in a manner expected of mature,civilised people...But we must help them by accepting our own part in this mess...maturely and completely...

[YFred]

I think it's incredibly revealing that the "average TC" would brazenly sacrifice his own well-being in this way - and hence (and far worse) the well-being of those closest to him, those dependent on him - who are given no say in the matter.

It reveals, quite starkly, your sick mentality and why it's probably best to keep you at arms length, in the open prison you've constructed for yourselves.

For some TCs there are things worse than death,MP...

To depend on the kindness of the GCs is ONE of them...

If you really want to understand their mentality,open your mind, and go and study the 1955-74 period of our recent history...

Having access to a defibrillator during a cardiac arrest isn't "worse than death" but the difference between life and death. You're not depending on kindness from a perceived enemy but on state-of-the-art medical equipment; equipment which may not necessarily be to hand in the north, to prevent your wife becoming a widow, your children orphans.

I can't believe you're even trying to justify Viewpoint's mentality; and point to a period two generations ago to do so.

I am not justifying Viewpoint's mentality,I am just telling you that it is not only confined to VP...And if you are really curious as to why some TCs feel that way,I am pointing you in the right direction...But it is easier to dismiss people as mad than try to understand where they are coming from...

Bir, that is very curious, because normally it's the victim that blames themselves for the predicament they find themselves in. Only in Cyprus the oppressor actually blames the oppressed and then blames them for their predicament. To add insult to injury, the whole world accepts it.
It just goes to show what a comedy club the UN has become.

The trouble is,YFred,nothing is black and white in this bloody conflict.
The oppressor and the victim have often changed places over the long years we have lived together...What is not helping is both sides trying to paint themselves whiter than white,while painting the other darker than black!..This must stop if we are to build mutual understanding,trust and respect...I am trying to point to the period where the TCs were most oppressed by the GCs...People can choose to accept it or deny it...The period after 74 was particularly traumatic for the GCs...We need to acknowledge that and show empathy and understanding...It is wrong to expect too much from the UN...We need to solve our problems amongst ourselves in a realistic fashion....When I say "ourselves" that includes Britain,Greece and Turkey as well...We can't escape our past....We must learn to deal with it openly,honestly,and humanely...Cypriots have nothing to gain by accusing and insulting each other...The status quo benefits Britain,Greece and Turkey...They must step up to he mark and discharge their responsibility as guarantors in a manner expected of mature,civilised people...But we must help them by accepting our own part in this mess...maturely and completely...

I agree with mosy of the things you say but can you really say that the problem is only within Cyprus and not one of the UN Permanent members acting on their interests and perpetuating the Cyprus problem because it suits them?
When you consider that the legal government has allowed known murderers to roam free since 63, can you really expect decent TCs to trust the roc as an entity? ROC can be trusted as much as TRNC. They are two of a kind and yet the true hypocrisy is how the world views them.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir
I can understand your point; if like you, you have experience of the past but even at VPs own admission he was born in the UK and never experienced any of of the troubles himself so therefore all his information about the Greek Cypriots is at best second hand. My parents lost members of their families through war but didn’t spend their lives hating and blaming; they moved on and it’s about time some of the people on this forum did the same.

Jimski

Personally I have no problem depending on GC kindness...Jimski...
In 2007 I spent a week in the RoC depending very much on the kindness of one special GC I have come to call my True Cypriot Brother..I will be in his debt forever,and i hope one day I will get the opportunity to return his amazing generosity,kindness and hospitality...Viewpoint is here to represent the official trnc way of seeing this conflict...That does not mean everything he says should be dismissed as propaganda...The period I was pointing to was the period which shaped a lot of TCs' mentality...You can make an effort to understand it,or take the easy way out and dismiss it as hatred or madness best left in the past...Simply wishing it away will not work...

Brother Bir, how are you?
Thanks a lot for your kind words, but I must tell you I honestly feel I have done nothing so special, for you to be indebted to me. I had the pleasure to enjoy your company and get to know you on a personal level, and realize how an honest, genuine and sensible person you are. It did help me to understand how much you also love this country, and the injustices committed against both you on a personal level, and as a member of the TC community. I will definitely love the idea to see here again, and be sure the feelings are mutual.

Well,that response just sums you up,dear brother..Thank you from the bottom of my heart...And lets remember here our Armenian brother kafenes,the big man with a bigger heart..And humanist,the gentle soul with infectious energy and sense of fun...And MicAtCyp who went out of his way to meet us for that delightful seafood lunch!!!Remember???
I have a sense that we will meet again in our beloved Cyprus,and nothing will delight me more than enjoying your company again..

[BirKibrisli]

I think it's incredibly revealing that the "average TC" would brazenly sacrifice his own well-being in this way - and hence (and far worse) the well-being of those closest to him, those dependent on him - who are given no say in the matter.

It reveals, quite starkly, your sick mentality and why it's probably best to keep you at arms length, in the open prison you've constructed for yourselves.

For some TCs there are things worse than death,MP...

To depend on the kindness of the GCs is ONE of them...

If you really want to understand their mentality,open your mind, and go and study the 1955-74 period of our recent history...

Having access to a defibrillator during a cardiac arrest isn't "worse than death" but the difference between life and death. You're not depending on kindness from a perceived enemy but on state-of-the-art medical equipment; equipment which may not necessarily be to hand in the north, to prevent your wife becoming a widow, your children orphans.

I can't believe you're even trying to justify Viewpoint's mentality; and point to a period two generations ago to do so.

I am not justifying Viewpoint's mentality,I am just telling you that it is not only confined to VP...And if you are really curious as to why some TCs feel that way,I am pointing you in the right direction...But it is easier to dismiss people as mad than try to understand where they are coming from...

Bir, that is very curious, because normally it's the victim that blames themselves for the predicament they find themselves in. Only in Cyprus the oppressor actually blames the oppressed and then blames them for their predicament. To add insult to injury, the whole world accepts it.
It just goes to show what a comedy club the UN has become.

The trouble is,YFred,nothing is black and white in this bloody conflict.
The oppressor and the victim have often changed places over the long years we have lived together...What is not helping is both sides trying to paint themselves whiter than white,while painting the other darker than black!..This must stop if we are to build mutual understanding,trust and respect...I am trying to point to the period where the TCs were most oppressed by the GCs...People can choose to accept it or deny it...The period after 74 was particularly traumatic for the GCs...We need to acknowledge that and show empathy and understanding...It is wrong to expect too much from the UN...We need to solve our problems amongst ourselves in a realistic fashion....When I say "ourselves" that includes Britain,Greece and Turkey as well...We can't escape our past....We must learn to deal with it openly,honestly,and humanely...Cypriots have nothing to gain by accusing and insulting each other...The status quo benefits Britain,Greece and Turkey...They must step up to he mark and discharge their responsibility as guarantors in a manner expected of mature,civilised people...But we must help them by accepting our own part in this mess...maturely and completely...

I agree with mosy of the things you say but can you really say that the problem is only within Cyprus and not one of the UN Permanent members acting on their interests and perpetuating the Cyprus problem because it suits them?
When you consider that the legal government has allowed known murderers to roam free since 63, can you really expect decent TCs to trust the roc as an entity? ROC can be trusted as much as TRNC. They are two of a kind and yet the true hypocrisy is how the world views them.

I see the UN pretty much like I see the Judiciary system,Yfred...
They dont always get it right,justice don't always prevail,the guilty sometimes walk away free...Judiciary sytem is biased towards the rich who can afford better lawyers,and the UN is biased towards the Bigger powers who do everything to advance their own interests...

But you are right,there is no excuse for allowing murderers to walk free and often get treated as heros,on both sides...At community level this is the biggest obstacle on the road to mutual trust and respect...Till we become mature enough to allow an independent Truth and Reconciliation Commission to do its work,Cypriots will treat each other with suspision and mistrust..

[Nikitas]

Maybe, just maybe, Davutoglu made that silly offer so that the GC side would opt for the Annan provision which prohibited mainland Greeks and Turks from ever settling in Cyprus.

That is the game at level one, because at level two, the point where the GCs ask for a permanent exclusion of mainlanders, it would have to be accepted as a permananent deviation of the EU legal order.

Level three would be a demand that the whole of the Cyprus settlement would become a permanent part of the EU legal order and that maybe was the goal all along. It opens the door to all kinds of exceptions and deviations which in the end reduce Cyprus to a second rate protectorate and not an independent state, and it would be requested by Cyprus, a member of the EU.

It is another indication of the self laid trap that Turkey has set for itself in Cyprus. If this is the measure of Davutoglu's intelliegence, I am not impressed.

The important question is "what about the TCs". Not even the TCs seem to be pressing for their interests. Obviously it is understandable that TCs do not want to live as second class citizens, that their security is paramount etc. But how did Davutoglu's proposals of a second rate republic fit in with these TC preoccupations?

Obviously pressure is being applied on the GCs to finally say "fuck it, let's have partition". Is that really the desire of the majority of TCs? I think most TCs like to fool themselves that if it comes to partition they will have a relationship with Turkey which resembles the one between Cyprus and Greece- friends from afar and each minds his own business. That is a big miscalculation. You only have to compare the prsence of mainlanders in the government service of each side to understand how different the embrace of the respective "motherlands" is on each community.