Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

Why do we need to go back 40 years to see what the attitude of the Turk cyp towards the Gc...demanding to be able to keep the Gc properties, while disregarding 10,000 years of history, Demanding: That the rights of the majority be nullified by Demanding a confederation.Demanding that they were being persecuted at the hands of the GC, while all along collaborating with British military trainers, and Major Macee, Demanding that we as GReek cyps relinquish our race heritage and culture so as to appease the poor Tc Demanding : that they are the victims while they leave and abrogate an agreement they signed with the Gc in Zurich.....With assumptions that suits them.....the list goes on and on and on.....Today they demand and keep playing the victims, how about going back to 1571, when all of Cyprus was populated by Greeks, who really is the victim and who is the oppressor.....

Because the key to all TC actions lies in the past...If you want to understand why we did what we did,and why the TCs do what they do now,you have to go and objectively analyse the 40s 50s and 60s.....If you want to sit back and throw cheap shots at us,fine go ahead..But it will backfire in the sense that there will never be a solution to Cyprob....I lament that because I have this romantic notion of preserving my unique TC identity and culture..And the longer there is no solution the more the TCs will be assimilated into the Turkish culture...The bad news for you is,as Viewpoint keeps telling you,most TCs do not give a damn about that...You will be taking your revenge on a few thousand poor sods like me,at a cost of giving up 36% (at the very least) of Cyprus....Go on,make the TCs day...

I'm sorry Bir, but none of this matters anymore when you prove time and time again that the TC's are not in charge in the negotiations.

You can't have the "reasonable" request of sharing empathy with one another in the hope of better understanding so that the leaders have an easier job, and then behave the way you behave (Talat).

Why does it matter what Talat or any other TC thinks for that matter when one of the demands he places on the negotiating table is to allow citizenship of Cyprus to 70m Turks should they want it. How when you prove time and time again that your leaders are merely messenger boys from Ankara should a GC treat a TC when discussing the Cyprus problem?

I'll tell you how I am increasingly driven to treat fellow (turkish) Cypriots. With irrelevance. Every time a clause is added onto the negotiated plan that CAN ONLY benefit Turkey and not anyone on this island, I realise how insignificant TC's are. Everytime I recall the 11 point memo that Turkey handed in to be included last minute into the Annan Plan which included amongst others rights to Cyprus's continental shelf to be governed by TURKEY (not tc's and gc's but Turkey) I realise how insignificant you are. Everytime I see a bunch of reasonable, intelligent TC's on this forum defend the latest decree brought over by Turkey into the negotiations, again I have no choice but to consider your relevance in this matter as zero.

Now tell me, what good will it do to Turkey if Oracle or COstis or Yiannis have a sit down and exchange understanding words of one another's feelings?

The only reason the TC's are in this negotiation are because Turkey needs to talk to us somehow, and since Turkey doesn't recognise the Republic of Cyprus, your boy talat will have to pass the messages on.

Levents brother wrote an interesting article yesterday making fun at Anastasiades for thinking that when/if Eroglu takes power the talks will be over. He reminds us that this is a ridiculous notion since both are equally capable of passing on messages from Turkey to President Christofias.

Perhaps the TC's had no choice on the matter, perhaps they're to blame for leaving Denktash there for 30 years instead of reacting sooner...either way its too late for any TC to affect the future of this island in any way. Its up to the GC's and Turkey.

That's my opinion anyway.

Then the game is up...If you believe that than you should do the honorable thing and tell Turkey you will not negotiate with Talat...Tell Turkey you believe the TCs do not matter,as they have no say in anything...Insist that this is a matter between you and Turkey now,and you will solve it by direct negotiations....Tell them they are lawless tyrants, cruel invaders,neo-emperialists,morally corrupt Anatolian peasants,who have no right to be occupying a third of Cyprus....See how far that will get you...good luck!

Bir, I'm not sure what you're saying to me here. DO you believe the wishes of this 80,000 tc community (being generous here) that's currently a minority in the north, have an impact on the talks?

Turkey sells the story that whats in Tukey's interest is in the TC interest also. You being the sincere guy that you are, am sure can dig through the ANnan points inserted by Erdogan and the recent proposal of the Turkish side. Perhaps then you can let me know whats in the TC community's interest and whats in Turkey's interest.

Is that the proposal where Turkey has requested that 70 million Turks have the right to RoC citizenship?

[denizaksulu]

The game was up long ago.

The following are the only remaining options (some realistic, while others not realistic at this point in time):

1) A True BBF (Federation) based on one man one vote, with no Treaty of Guarantee or Alliance, no ridiculous anti Cypriot clauses such as Turkey taking control of the Cyprus EEZ, and with one international identity and citizenship,
2) The status quo to continue for many years to come and await future political and military geostrategic changes, or
3) A negotiated partition with a fair land distribution of not more than 20-22% for the "trnc".

I don't even think option 3 is open, Paphitis, even assuming the GCs will want this, which I doubt. First of all, unless the north is allowed to become a EU member after an agreed partition, which the RoC will not permit, Turkey will not allow the north to be just an independent state and not an EU member so to become a "Trojan Horse" for Turkey to use in order for the EU to allow Turkey in first without reforming. An agreed partition would mean that the north state and Turkey will need to accept being kept out of the EU permanently. This is the price they will need to pay for wanting a partitioning of Cyprus. This is the price Turkey is not willing to pay even if the TC are. But then again, the TCs are not in charge of the north, therefore is not worth asking them what is it that they want.!

This is where Turkey is shooting itself in the foot. I have said it before, that the most beneficial solution to all parties, is for Turkey to withdraw her troops and where most of the settlers are humanely sent back to their own country. The only possible solution that is acceptable to the GCs is a BBF with one international personality, one citizenship, and no Treaty of Guarantee or unreasonable claims such as Turkey controlling the Cyprus EEZ, or a separate northern FIR, and where each Cypriot citizen is EQUAL and where the rights of ALL citizens are protected from a constitutional Bill of Rights and through the EU Charter.

This is the only solution that will be accepted from the GC point of view. And this type of solution will benefit all involved. Turkey will eventually become an EU member, Cyprus will hopefully become a member of the PfP and NATO. Alliances will be formed between Greece, Turkey and Cyprus and so people won't need to live in fear over the next incidents or acts of war over the Aegean or Cyprus. Trade, development and cooperation will increase out of necessity, improving every one's standard of living and providing better opportunities for all, including the TCs. Greece, Turkey, and Cyprus will spend less on weapons since old enmities are no more. There will be greater stability and a real peace with the region between Greece, Cyprus and Turkey.

Unfortunately, Turkey does not see this and prefers its policy of territorial expansion against both Cyprus and Greece, which one day will lead to something else. A War no one can afford, and a Turkey isolated from the West, as EU membership is a distant and unrealistic dream due to continued occupation of EU territory.

I may be naive on Turkeys international policy re:Cyprus future; but on the Big Question (BBC1) this past Sunday, mention was made of Turkeys entry into the EU and the fear of 60 + million muslims suddenly becoming possible immigrants (seeking jobs) into the UK was mentioned. I sometimes wonder whether the EU are deliberately 'allowing' Turkey to remain in Cyprus just to keep Turkey out of the EU. Never mind the talks (Turkeys+EU) all it needs is a tiny veto from Cyprus to stop her entry.

Hucking folitics! Wonderful innit?

[Paphitis]

The game was up long ago.

The following are the only remaining options (some realistic, while others not realistic at this point in time):

1) A True BBF (Federation) based on one man one vote, with no Treaty of Guarantee or Alliance, no ridiculous anti Cypriot clauses such as Turkey taking control of the Cyprus EEZ, and with one international identity and citizenship,
2) The status quo to continue for many years to come and await future political and military geostrategic changes, or
3) A negotiated partition with a fair land distribution of not more than 20-22% for the "trnc".

I don't even think option 3 is open, Paphitis, even assuming the GCs will want this, which I doubt. First of all, unless the north is allowed to become a EU member after an agreed partition, which the RoC will not permit, Turkey will not allow the north to be just an independent state and not an EU member so to become a "Trojan Horse" for Turkey to use in order for the EU to allow Turkey in first without reforming. An agreed partition would mean that the north state and Turkey will need to accept being kept out of the EU permanently. This is the price they will need to pay for wanting a partitioning of Cyprus. This is the price Turkey is not willing to pay even if the TC are. But then again, the TCs are not in charge of the north, therefore is not worth asking them what is it that they want.!

This is where Turkey is shooting itself in the foot. I have said it before, that the most beneficial solution to all parties, is for Turkey to withdraw her troops and where most of the settlers are humanely sent back to their own country. The only possible solution that is acceptable to the GCs is a BBF with one international personality, one citizenship, and no Treaty of Guarantee or unreasonable claims such as Turkey controlling the Cyprus EEZ, or a separate northern FIR, and where each Cypriot citizen is EQUAL and where the rights of ALL citizens are protected from a constitutional Bill of Rights and through the EU Charter.

This is the only solution that will be accepted from the GC point of view. And this type of solution will benefit all involved. Turkey will eventually become an EU member, Cyprus will hopefully become a member of the PfP and NATO. Alliances will be formed between Greece, Turkey and Cyprus and so people won't need to live in fear over the next incidents or acts of war over the Aegean or Cyprus. Trade, development and cooperation will increase out of necessity, improving every one's standard of living and providing better opportunities for all, including the TCs. Greece, Turkey, and Cyprus will spend less on weapons since old enmities are no more. There will be greater stability and a real peace with the region between Greece, Cyprus and Turkey.

Unfortunately, Turkey does not see this and prefers its policy of territorial expansion against both Cyprus and Greece, which one day will lead to something else. A War no one can afford, and a Turkey isolated from the West, as EU membership is a distant and unrealistic dream due to continued occupation of EU territory.

I may be naive on Turkeys international policy re:Cyprus future; but on the Big Question (BBC1) this past Sunday, mention was made of Turkeys entry into the EU and the fear of 60 + million muslims suddenly becoming possible immigrants (seeking jobs) into the UK was mentioned. I sometimes wonder whether the EU are deliberately 'allowing' Turkey to remain in Cyprus just to keep Turkey out of the EU. Never mind the talks (Turkeys+EU) all it needs is a tiny veto from Cyprus to stop her entry.

Hucking folitics! Wonderful innit?

It seems like a big exaggeration to me. I think there is a genuine push by the US to have Turkey become an EU member, but I do think that Cyprus is being used by France, Austria and Germany to keep Turkey out.

However, there is no doubt that a solution to the Cyprus question will assist Turkey in its EU bid.

I guess Turkey will need to decide within the next few years between Cyprus and becoming an EU member state. If Turkish troops left tomorrow, and there is genuine reform, then I can't see how anyone will be able to keep Turkey out of the EU.

[denizaksulu]

The game was up long ago.

The following are the only remaining options (some realistic, while others not realistic at this point in time):

1) A True BBF (Federation) based on one man one vote, with no Treaty of Guarantee or Alliance, no ridiculous anti Cypriot clauses such as Turkey taking control of the Cyprus EEZ, and with one international identity and citizenship,
2) The status quo to continue for many years to come and await future political and military geostrategic changes, or
3) A negotiated partition with a fair land distribution of not more than 20-22% for the "trnc".

I don't even think option 3 is open, Paphitis, even assuming the GCs will want this, which I doubt. First of all, unless the north is allowed to become a EU member after an agreed partition, which the RoC will not permit, Turkey will not allow the north to be just an independent state and not an EU member so to become a "Trojan Horse" for Turkey to use in order for the EU to allow Turkey in first without reforming. An agreed partition would mean that the north state and Turkey will need to accept being kept out of the EU permanently. This is the price they will need to pay for wanting a partitioning of Cyprus. This is the price Turkey is not willing to pay even if the TC are. But then again, the TCs are not in charge of the north, therefore is not worth asking them what is it that they want.!

This is where Turkey is shooting itself in the foot. I have said it before, that the most beneficial solution to all parties, is for Turkey to withdraw her troops and where most of the settlers are humanely sent back to their own country. The only possible solution that is acceptable to the GCs is a BBF with one international personality, one citizenship, and no Treaty of Guarantee or unreasonable claims such as Turkey controlling the Cyprus EEZ, or a separate northern FIR, and where each Cypriot citizen is EQUAL and where the rights of ALL citizens are protected from a constitutional Bill of Rights and through the EU Charter.

This is the only solution that will be accepted from the GC point of view. And this type of solution will benefit all involved. Turkey will eventually become an EU member, Cyprus will hopefully become a member of the PfP and NATO. Alliances will be formed between Greece, Turkey and Cyprus and so people won't need to live in fear over the next incidents or acts of war over the Aegean or Cyprus. Trade, development and cooperation will increase out of necessity, improving every one's standard of living and providing better opportunities for all, including the TCs. Greece, Turkey, and Cyprus will spend less on weapons since old enmities are no more. There will be greater stability and a real peace with the region between Greece, Cyprus and Turkey.

Unfortunately, Turkey does not see this and prefers its policy of territorial expansion against both Cyprus and Greece, which one day will lead to something else. A War no one can afford, and a Turkey isolated from the West, as EU membership is a distant and unrealistic dream due to continued occupation of EU territory.

I may be naive on Turkeys international policy re:Cyprus future; but on the Big Question (BBC1) this past Sunday, mention was made of Turkeys entry into the EU and the fear of 60 + million muslims suddenly becoming possible immigrants (seeking jobs) into the UK was mentioned. I sometimes wonder whether the EU are deliberately 'allowing' Turkey to remain in Cyprus just to keep Turkey out of the EU. Never mind the talks (Turkeys+EU) all it needs is a tiny veto from Cyprus to stop her entry.

Hucking folitics! Wonderful innit?

It seems like a big exaggeration to me. I think there is a genuine push by the US to have Turkey become an EU member, but I do think that Cyprus is being used by France, Austria and Germany to keep Turkey out.

However, there is no doubt that a solution to the Cyprus question will assist Turkey in its EU bid.

I guess Turkey will need to decide within the next few years between Cyprus and becoming an EU member state. If Turkish troops left tomorrow, and there is genuine reform, then I can't see how anyone will be able to keep Turkey out of the EU.

So many variables. I dunno.