Cyprus-Forum.com

[michalis5354]

3%??? Are you sure that all those who voted No share exactly your views? After all what anyone should had expected If the president urged everyone to vote No. Dont forget that there are people who do not understand much about politics and rely solely on president opinion! And why then two of ministers of Papadopoulos have resigned after his arrogant speech he made two days prior to referndum! So Do not put all No voters in one basket!

There is a condradiction here since although you speak about Independent united Cyprus you praised actions of the past that violated the independence.

[metecyp]

3%??? Are you sure that all those who voted No share exactly your views?

Some people voted no because they think like Piratis. Some voted no because they are against some settlers staying. Some voted no because they don't believe in federation. Some voted no because they're simply scared of losing everything again. Some voted no because they're against the change. Some people voted no because they want to keep RC to themselves, and the list goes on...I guess the main reason for NO is it was easier for people to say NO than YES, especially in the south and people like Piratis act as if all these 75% NO votes are the same.

[michalis5354]

The EOKA actions gave to the British sufficient reasons to assigned intervention rights to Greece , Turkey and UK in case this organisation attempts to violate the order on the island. I think this is the main reason these intervention rights have been assigned on the treaty. Otherwise why should these intervention rights were assigned in the first place ?

[michalis5354]

If Makarios was not happy with signing an independent Cyprus and wanted Cyprus to be a Greek island like Crete or Rhodes( what a shame if this was his mission?) he should have refused to sign the London agreements. By signing these agreements he was obliged to behave and act in a certain manner representing an independent country. By that time the mission for ENOSIS should had been eliminated but unfortunately this had not been the case.

[Piratis]

yes, metecyp is right that people voted no for many reasons. People voted "yes" for many reasons as well.
What you are wrong is that you put me in the extreme. I am not in the extreme as Bananiot wants to present me. I am in the center.
There are people that are ready to accept almost any kind of solution the foreigners give us (e.g. Bananiot) and on the other extreme there are people that would propably reject any kind of solution.
Then there are people that will accept only the solution that meets their minimum requirements, and I believe I am about in the center of those people. Some of those people expect more than I do from a solution to be satisfactory for them, and some expect less than me. So if I say "no" for a plan, its a strong indication that probably this plan will be rejected by GCs, and if accepted it will be with a small margin (no more than 55%).

Personally I am here because I trully want to find a solution that will be accepted by the majorities of both GC and TC (settlers not included). If I wanted to talk with people that agree with me I would be in other forums that discussions are in Greek. If you are here for the same reason then you have to take what I say more seriusly instead of trying to present my views as extreme. If you are here just to find a small minority that will agree with you and be happy about it, then I wish you to have a good time and I will even stop bothering you.

[Bananiot]

In 1960 AKEL changed its stance against Makarios. From a ferocious critic it became a tame follower. Makarios, a fervent anti-communist, spared AKEL from ideological attacks and AKEL found refuge under his robes. Makarios, as it is well known, never believed in the Cyprus Republic and tried to use the London-Zurich as a stepping stone to achieve enosis. After all he had taken an oath at Faneromeni church on which he could not go back. At this point AKEL started talking about enosis and this continued right up to 1964. In the 4 years that elapsed, Cyprus was ravaged by intercommunal fighting where the nationalists on both sides had a field day. By 1964 Makarios realised at long last that his enosis policies were destroying Cyprus and eventually set new targets, that is consolidation of the Cyprus Republic.

Immediadely he was challenged by Grivas and the rest of the fascist banch who reminded him of his oath and of course labeled him a traitor. Several times they tried to assasinate him, but coming back to AKEL, its worth noting that this party was by now the mouth piece of Makarios and followed blindly his policies. So, again adhered to the enosis cause, but when Makarios changed his mind, so did AKEL. Also, people like Kavazoglu and Ahmet Sade (the trade unionist that I had the honour to meet in London) who were targetted by TMT, were sidelined by AKEL during the period 1960-1964 because they opposed the turning of AKEL to the enosis cause. They were seen as thorns in the flesh of AKEL.

Piratis now, who has called me a traitor and an idiot, claims to be an AKEL supporter, with the rest of his family. He is also sure that my viwes represent 3% of the GC (making me a small minority and therefore placing me in the wrong). Fair enough, but I think the real progressive attitude was the "yes" vote in the recent referendum. The most progressive forces on the island voted yes. On the contrary, the most reactionary forces (lets name some: Denktash, Papadopoulos, Matsakis, Eroglou, the church) voted no. Progressive thinking sets aside the majority-minority mentality and calls for equality on all levels; politically as well as economically. There is no other way about it. That is if we really care about avoiding partition, even at this late, late hour.

[Piratis]

So according to Bananiot people that demand democracy and human rights are not progressive, while the others that want a non-democratic system, with restrictions to basic human rights that makes Cyprus a protectorate of Turkey, are supposedly progressive.

We obviously understand progress in a different way.

Maybe Bananiot would like to set aside the "majority-minority mentality" and do what the 24% voted for instead of what the 76% voted for. Unfortunately for Bananiot we still have democracy. (and we will make sure it will stay that way).

(by the way, I just said what I voted for last parliamentary elections. This doesn't make me a supporter of anybody. I am supporter of sport teams not of political parties)

[MicAtCyp]

Quote
...Fair enough, but I think the real progressive attitude was the "yes" vote in the recent referendum. The most progressive forces on the island voted yes.....

How can you label yourself "progressive" dear Bananiot? You were a straight YES voter from the very begining no matter what.I said it in other forums and I repeat it here too that this condition reminds me of stupid virgins who just want a husband, and are ready to accept any kind of "male like looking" they present them.Well the Anan Plan was not "male" it was a transvesty!!!

You know I fighted with a lot of fanatics who had used every stupid excuse to convince everyone for a NO.And nobody really supported me with arguments. I was very sad in the end to vote NO too.The Anan Plan version 5 did not leave me any other choice although I always wanted so much to be able in the end to vote for a YES.....

For me personally the Anan Plan cannot even be a basis for negotiations anymore.Lets face the truth:The views of the 2 sides are completely opposite, whatever we ask towards a true Federation and respect of human rights they will ask for the opposite that would lead to as close as possible to 2 separate states and as many as possible discounts on our own human rights.

Me and you agreed many times that our side was the most guilty side prior to 1974.I presented many facts and true stories of attrocities against the TCs for that period remember? In this forum however we don't have to convince GC fanatics and extremists....
I got the impression you are a refugee from Famagusta Bananiot. Well? Say something for it. The Cyprus problem does include the period from the Turkish Invasion in 1974 to date isn’t it?How do you feel, what kind of solution do you expect, why the other refugees shouldn’t get the same status like you after a solution?

To be a goodie-goodie talker in the eyes of the TCs in this forum does not serve any purpose other than perhaps creating wrong impressions.And I am sorry my friend but if you are ready to accept just any kind of solution even a complete surrender, I am not.

[Bananiot]

For a start, hello, how are you? Its nice to be able to talk with you and its true I do appreciate your opininions. However, I think you are not doing me or yourself any justice when you insinuate that my position on the A plan has to do with my place of birth and when you compare me with frustrated virgins (do they really exist these days?). I also take the "to be a goodie-goodie talker in the eyes of the TCs in this forum does not serve any purpose other than perhaps creating wrong impressions" as utterly unacceptable and way beyond the boundaries of fair play.

On the substance of what you wrote, I can also remind you that right from day one I supported the A plan, not because it offered just any solution but because I thought it was a balanced plan that took into consideration the needs of GC and TC. During the time that elapsed till A plan 5, I made a point that A Plan 3 was probably better overall. Now, one of the crucial parameters that shaped the eventual plan was Papadopoulos. I knew all along that he would refuse to negotiate the plan in order to bring back a not so good plan so that he could secure a huge "no" vote. So he did, refusing even to ask for Karpasia! He killed our hopes for a solution and the A Plan is miles better than the partition that is not merely hovering over Cyprus but is a sad reality and a direct consequence of our vote. Papadopoulos has always been a fervent supporter of partition, even if he does not say it. He prefers the situation to remain as it is rather than reaching an agreed solution. He said this and he wrote this many times before he became president, when he had more lineage to speak freely.

And another thing. I originate from a village in the Famagusta district. Its now called Acova and have no property in the village or in Famagusta. Only, I have the recurring dream of peaceful, happy bygone days. It was very mean of you to even consider that I may have an alterior motive that directs my kind of thinking. Your only excuse is that you do not know me ....

[metecyp]

I think the problem with MicAtCyp and Piratis is that since they had no contact with TCs, they have no idea about the spectrum of views in the north. They are also unaware of the politics and the public opinion in Turkey (which ultimately shapes the Cyprus problem). Now since they're so ignorant of TCs and Turkey, they cannot see the Annan plan as a balanced plan because they look at the plan from their perspective and see how far it is from their views. And I can't blame them for that because there are exactly same people in the north who have certain views on Cyprus problem (partition, seperate state, no GC refugees returning, not an inch of land to be given back, etc.) and they also don't like the Annan plan because it's far from their views.

On the other hand, other people in the forum have a better understanding of the wide spectrum of views both in the TC and GC community and when they read the plan, they truly appreciate its balance considering the different views that exist on both sides of the island.