Cyprus-Forum.com

[Malapapa]

Mr Ed said:

"I do not accept this freedom of movement for Turkish citizens as part of the solution, and you have stated that the majority of TCs do not want this either, but no TC on this forum appears to have the courage of conviction to actually stand up and say this "

I fully understand the social and national taboos that may block the average TC from saying this. But it was tabled yesterday officially by Talat. The remainder of his points, nine in all, were in the framework of a solution and could be discussed by the GC side. This sudden demand of free access to Cyprus for 70 million mainland Turks goes beyond the settler issue and brings in a new factor which no GC can accept.

As for the settler issue it has been said many times in the past, those that married TCs take Cypriot nationality. The rest cannot be allowed to displace Cypriots. I am still amazed that while much is made of the settler issue no one speaks of the TCs forced to migrate and live away from the island. How about some incentives for those people to return, BEFORE we show "humanitarian concern" for non Cypriot settlers?

You hit the nail on the head,Nikitas...
We must look after our own first,before being too generous with our settlers...I have said this many times,the biggest mistake they made in the trnc was to give the settlers the vote,hence taking away the last remaining political power of the TCs...Today the settlers can decide any question in the North,they are in the majority...having said that,we must of course treat them with compassion and make sure humanitarian values are upheld in deciding who goes and who stays...But the majority of the settlers need to be repatriated after a solution to give the Cypriots a real chance of building their own nation...The process which was strangled at birth in 1963...

The birth was in 1960... it was induced, and it was an abortion.

The process was strangled in 1963...It seems that you people are more concerned about scoring silly points in pseudo arguments than address the essentials of any post....I am wasting my time again...Enjoy your road to partition,MP...may you score very many points and prove how clever you are to the whole Forum along the way...

Pseudo arguments?

The abortion of a constitution goes to the very heart of the issue, written as it was by and for other nations, with a vested interest in preventing nation building through apartheid.

Things went wrong in 1963 because of it, and TCs have used this to insist on additional privileges/protections ever since.

In my estimations, faced with this abortion, Cyprus would have been better off remaining under British rule, joining the EU (the EEC as it was then) as a united island 13 years later. Safe from Turkey's clutches and having joined the European family even before Greece, Cypriots would have then had the self-confidence to build their nation, demanding an element of self-rule.

[BirKibrisli]

..The process which was strangled at birth in 1963...

Bir, would you explain what you mean by "the process" which was strangled in 1963?

Do you mean the process of democratisation where TCs and GCs (etc) were to have equal voting power and no forced GC/TC President/Vice positions?

Or, do you mean the process which was started by the TCs/TMT to partition the island into a 'TC state' and a 'GC state'?

If you took your blinkers off and considered my whole post,you'd know what I meant...

...But the majority of the settlers need to be repatriated after a solution to give the Cypriots a real chance of building their own nation...The process which was strangled at birth in 1963...

The process was Cypriots building their own nation....After an eternity ,Cypriots had a chance to become an independent nation...But they had their own agendas...And guess which came first???? yep,the GC dream of Enosis with Greece....Would you accept that as fact or would you like proof of that too???

I saw the whole phrase ... I reduced it to component parts for clarification.

So, would you please answer which of these two possible processes you meant for 1963 onwards (forget "dreams") was responsible for strangling the Cypriot nation's future ...


(1) Do you mean the process of democratisation where TCs and GCs (etc) were to have equal voting power and no forced GC/TC President/Vice positions?

(2) Do you mean the process which was started by the TCs/TMT to partition the island into a 'TC state' and a 'GC state'?

Which of those two processes would have "strangled" the chance of Cypriots building their own nation?

None of the above...But there are 2 other processes which put an end to the dream of building a unique nation....

1...The greed which made Makarios not satisfied with sharing 70-30 the executive power with Turkish Cypriots in 1963....

2...The stupidity which made Sampson attempt his coup to bring about ENOSIS with Greece by force of arms in 1974....

I can think of others,but these 2 will do for now...

Take your pick....

You were talking about processes which strangled the future of Cypriots back in 1963 ... So, why did you now introduce something from 1974?

If you stop using words from your imagination ("greed") and look at some facts, then you may manage an honest answer and stop kidding yourself, and us, about what you really believe.

You are struggling to admit that it is the Process of Democratisation which you believe strangled Cyprus. And, by also refusing to admit 'strangulation' had anything to do with the TC/TMT efforts to bring about partition then you have allied yourself with all the other TC partitionists.

Keep your heart and your mind shut to the TC pain and loss and soon,Oracle,you will be living in a democratic country talking about the human rights of the majority in Cyprus,the settlers from Anatolia...
And you will rue the day you were not satisfied with sharing political power with the TCs 70-30 (Veto or no veto),back in the good old days of 60-63....

[denizaksulu]

I have not read any of the posts in this thread yet; but this entry on my calendar came to my notice. Too busy atm to read threads.


"SUCCESS IS 10% inspiration, 90% last minute changes."

Let us pray!!

[BirKibrisli]

None of the above...But there are 2 other processes which put an end to the dream of building a unique nation....

1...The greed which made Makarios not satisfied with sharing 70-30 the executive power with Turkish Cypriots in 1963....

2...The stupidity which made Sampson attempt his coup to bring about ENOSIS with Greece by force of arms in 1974....

I can think of others,but these 2 will do for now...

Take your pick....

2 corrections here Bir,

1) Wasn't about greed, state was paralysed and pennyless. Something had to be done. He took the wrong/right decision. Fact is though that things couldn't remain as they were.
2) Sampson didn't attempt any coups. He was the 3rd choice of the Athens Junta after Clerides and (forgot the 2nd) declined. The coup was a purely Greek affair with Greek officers backed by treasonous Eoka B GC's.

I know all this and much more,DT,as you probably suspect...
I am simply playing Oracle's game,looking at the events from purely TC official propaganda angle...
She will soon be driven up the wall,I hope,and realise nothing is black and white...The state was paralysed and penniless,i know...But I am sure you are not suggesting that was Makarios' only motive in pushing on with his 13 proposals....Neither was Kuchuk's motivation purely financial...
Mate,we need to get people to see the whole picture,before it is too late...
The 75 million Turkish citizens are knocking on the door...If you think they will stop at the border with the North,you are mistaken...I have been warning about this for some time...Dismiss the TCs as thieving traitors,as Oracle and GR are doing,and you will find yourselves swimming upstream in a Turkish sea... I will try hard not to say "I told you so!"...

[BirKibrisli]

Mr Ed said:

"I do not accept this freedom of movement for Turkish citizens as part of the solution, and you have stated that the majority of TCs do not want this either, but no TC on this forum appears to have the courage of conviction to actually stand up and say this "

I fully understand the social and national taboos that may block the average TC from saying this. But it was tabled yesterday officially by Talat. The remainder of his points, nine in all, were in the framework of a solution and could be discussed by the GC side. This sudden demand of free access to Cyprus for 70 million mainland Turks goes beyond the settler issue and brings in a new factor which no GC can accept.

As for the settler issue it has been said many times in the past, those that married TCs take Cypriot nationality. The rest cannot be allowed to displace Cypriots. I am still amazed that while much is made of the settler issue no one speaks of the TCs forced to migrate and live away from the island. How about some incentives for those people to return, BEFORE we show "humanitarian concern" for non Cypriot settlers?

You hit the nail on the head,Nikitas...
We must look after our own first,before being too generous with our settlers...I have said this many times,the biggest mistake they made in the trnc was to give the settlers the vote,hence taking away the last remaining political power of the TCs...Today the settlers can decide any question in the North,they are in the majority...having said that,we must of course treat them with compassion and make sure humanitarian values are upheld in deciding who goes and who stays...But the majority of the settlers need to be repatriated after a solution to give the Cypriots a real chance of building their own nation...The process which was strangled at birth in 1963...

The birth was in 1960... it was induced, and it was an abortion.

The process was strangled in 1963...It seems that you people are more concerned about scoring silly points in pseudo arguments than address the essentials of any post....I am wasting my time again...Enjoy your road to partition,MP...may you score very many points and prove how clever you are to the whole Forum along the way...

Pseudo arguments?

The abortion of a constitution goes to the very heart of the issue, written as it was by and for other nations, with a vested interest in preventing nation building through apartheid.

Things went wrong in 1963 because of it, and TCs have used this to insist on additional privileges/protections ever since.

In my estimations, faced with this abortion, Cyprus would have been better off remaining under British rule, joining the EU (the EEC as it was then) as a united island 13 years later. Safe from Turkey's clutches and having joined the European family even before Greece, Cypriots would have then had the self-confidence to build their nation, demanding an element of self-rule.

And in my estimation,both sides should have tried much harder to make he 60 Constitution work....You are no doubt aware that the Republic of Cyprus gets her legitimacy from those international agreements...But her moral legitimacy is very much in question,given that one of the partners have been absent for all but 3 years of the life of the ROC...And please don't give me the simplistic propaganda line that the TCs walked away from their rights...do yourself a favour,MP,and read some of Bananiot's posts about why he voted YES for the AP...In them you will find a lot of answers to a lot of prickly questions...Treat them with suspicion if you like,but consider them carefully...Then ask further questions and come to your own decisions...I am sure you will find the exercise worth your time...

[Get Real!]

The 75 million Turkish citizens are knocking on the door...If you think they will stop at the border with the North,you are mistaken...I have been warning about this for some time...Dismiss the TCs as thieving traitors,as Oracle and GR are doing,and you will find yourselves swimming upstream in a Turkish sea... I will try hard not to say "I told you so!"...

So what do you suggest? Cave in to Turkish blackmails so as not to get flooded by Turks?

Turkification either way… a true visionary!

Then people call me crazy when I tell them that only through sacrifice will Cyprus rid itself of Turkish crap once and for all!

[BirKibrisli]

The 75 million Turkish citizens are knocking on the door...If you think they will stop at the border with the North,you are mistaken...I have been warning about this for some time...Dismiss the TCs as thieving traitors,as Oracle and GR are doing,and you will find yourselves swimming upstream in a Turkish sea... I will try hard not to say "I told you so!"...

So what do you suggest? Cave in to Turkish blackmails so as not to get flooded by Turks?

Turkification either way… a true visionary!

Then people call me crazy when I tell them that only through sacrifice will Cyprus rid itself of Turkish crap once and for all!

The answer is obvious....Treat the TCs as your friends not your enemies...Take action to foster mutual trust and respect...make them feel safe and secure in their own country,instead of insulting them and threatening them with war,as you keep doing...Then they might be prepared to accept a solution which will gradually remove Turkey from the picture...It is our only hope,and disappearing fast beyond the horizon under your stupid remarks...

[Bananiot]

Give it up gardash. Talking to these misantrhopists is a waste of time.

[Get Real!]

The 75 million Turkish citizens are knocking on the door...If you think they will stop at the border with the North,you are mistaken...I have been warning about this for some time...Dismiss the TCs as thieving traitors,as Oracle and GR are doing,and you will find yourselves swimming upstream in a Turkish sea... I will try hard not to say "I told you so!"...

So what do you suggest? Cave in to Turkish blackmails so as not to get flooded by Turks?

Turkification either way… a true visionary!

Then people call me crazy when I tell them that only through sacrifice will Cyprus rid itself of Turkish crap once and for all!

The answer is obvious....Treat the TCs as your friends not your enemies...Take action to foster mutual trust and respect...make them feel safe and secure in their own country,instead of insulting them and threatening them with war,as you keep doing...Then they might be prepared to accept a solution which will gradually remove Turkey from the picture...It is our only hope,and disappearing fast beyond the horizon under your stupid remarks...

The RoC has ALREADY gone out of its way for the Turkish Cypriots but unfortunately they obviously think we’re stupid, and the more the RoC offers the more absurd their demands become!

It’s a clear case of a spoilt, corrupt, and unappreciative lot who should be dealt with in a totally different manner… a 180 degree about face!

[halil]

Give it up gardash. Talking to these misantrhopists is a waste of time.

we already solved the problem Gardash ..... The solution of the Buyuk han

our parliment is established too .....