Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Your vote does not count for more than a GC's does. Thats undemocratic.

blah blah blah

If it is undemocratic within a federal state why is it not undemocratic between states? Or does democracy mean different things in different places?

[Piratis]

there was almost no hostility between turks and bulgarians

when our names were changed into Bulgarian

They changed your names into Bulgarian and there was almost no hostility? I wonder if we did this to TCs what would have happened.

The policy of the bulgarian state was that of assimilation, rather than annihilation

assimilation: absorption into the cultural tradition of another group

And that was fine ah? Ask our TC friends in here if they would be ok with this also.

If they told you that the policy of GCs was the annihilation of TCs then you have been fed too much propaganda. Turks killed 100 times more GCs than the other way around.

Have it ever past your mind that the reason there was almost no hostility in Bulgaria was not because they treated you better (far worst from what I can see) but because Turkey didn't have the power to enforce such outrageous demands for the TB minority as they could do for the TC minority?

[bg_turk]

Piratis,

the total number of people killed in these hostilities in Bulgaria was less than 10 out of 1.5 million turks, how many hundreds of TC were killed in tiny cyprus. I prefer to have a changed name rather than being killed. Our bulgarian neighbours never attacked us, in fact many of them sympathized, unlike the intercommunal violence that you experienced in Cyprus.

For us the oppressor was the communist regime not all bulgarian in general.

Our experience was very different from yours, and I would be more willing to compare Cyprus to the events in ex-Yugoslavia, especially the war in Bosnia. In this respect you are wrong claiming turkish cypriots were treated better than us, not at all, far worse, entire villages were wiped out, and massacres occured.

I have been to Greece, and I have seen the sorry state of the turkish minority there, their organisations are banned for merely having turkish in their name even now when the country is in the EU. You greeks in general, like serbs, are much more shovinistic and intollerant than bulgarians.

[Piratis]

the total number of people killed in these hostilities in Bulgaria was less than 10 out of 1.5 million turks, how many hundreds of TC were killed in tiny cyprus.

If you accepted to do whatever you were told then of course there was no killings. What do you think would have happened if you demanded to have veto power in everything, 30% governmental positions, and you were trying to split Bulgaria into 2. Do you think Bulgarians would have let you do this to their country?

Ans I repeat: Turks killed 100 times more GCs than the other way around. So why you don't go tell them about this and you blame us??

I have been to Greece, and I have seen the sorry state of the turkish minority there

The Turkish minority in Greece is increasing, while the Greek minority of Turkey has decreased to a tiny number.
Some months ago some journalists went to Thrace and they were beaten by the Muslims there. I wonder if the Greeks in Turkey would have even dared to do such thing.

Turks are the last ones who can talk about minority rights. Look at the genocide they performed against the Armenians, look at the way they are treating Kurds!!

[bg_turk]

Piratis,

1. I am a strong believer that Turkey should respect all the rights of minorities too, but I am a citizen of Bulgaria, and I have no association with the Republic of Turkey and its government other than historical-ethnic link. I call myself turkish bulgarian, and you can accuse me for the actions of the turkish bulgarian community or Bulgaria but not Turkey over which I have no voting influence.

2. We did not demand a veto power and other rights because we did not fear for our lives. There was no need for seperation. We got along well with our bulgarian neighbours.

3. Greeks have committed many crimes too, so singling out turks is not correct. Greeks have ethnically cleansed Aegean macedonia and western thrace of all Bulgarians and slavs, some of whom now live in the port city of Varna, but none of these people go about asking for their properties do they? Thessaloniki (Solun) had a thriving bulgarian community which was forcefully expelled. Many bulgarian complained they were treated worse by greeks than by turks. Even now Greece is continuing to block the opneing of the Makaza border gait, and the access of bulgaria to the aegean see. Only recently were bulgarian tv crews allows to film a demolished bulgarian village near Ser, and its church was in a very sorry state.

Greece is the only country which has continously expanded throughout its history at the cost of its neighbours. Its attempts were only stalled when it failed to annex Cyprus. Greek treatment of minorities and immigrants is as appalling as that of Turkey in my opinion.

You want to have a united cyprus, but would you be willing to live with turks as your neigbours? I feel no sincerity in your claims for unification. Turks in Cyprus on the other hand have also demonstrated their failure to treat minorities, I feel especially sorry for the greeks in the northern part of TRNC. It would have been a good symbolic gesture , to show that tc could treat gc much better than they treated tc. I think you hate each other too much to live together, but I hope i am wrong.

[Piratis]

We did not demand a veto power and other rights because we did not fear for our lives.

Oh, I see. So it goes like this: " A GC goes to kill a TC and the TC says 'VETO', and saves his life" nice joke, but nothing more than this. TCs didn't get veto powers, 30% governmental positions etc because they feared for their lives, they got them because they could force this things while the Turks of Bulgaria could not.

Greeks have committed many crimes too

Sure, but not as many as Turks. And when we talk about Cyprus in particular Turks have committed 100 times more crimes.

Greece is the only country which has continously expanded throughout its history

Are you serious??? Dude, Greeks had founded new cities as far as France. what today is Turkey, especially the western coast, was build by Greeks. Cyprus has a Greek population for 3500 years.

You want to have a united cyprus, but would you be willing to live with turks as your neigbours?

Equal neighbors yes. Not ones that have 4.5 times more voting power than me as they demand.

I feel no sincerity in your claims for unification.

1/3rd of our land was stolen, why wouldn't I want unification??? What I do not want is partition, or disguised partition like the Annan plan.

[bg_turk]

Bulgarians have lived in Solun since the very creation of the Bulgarian state. Bulgarians have as much "right" to own that city which has been ethnically cleansed of them, as greek cypriots have a right to own and control northern cyprus. Western Thrace was a recognized bulgarian terriotry, but was forcefully and violently annexed by Greece after the first world war. In this respect Greece is no less agressor than any other.

And I still stand by my claim that Greece in the Balkans is the only country that has continously expanded since its liberation from the ottoman empire unless you disprove my claim. All other countries including Bulgaria, Serbia and Turkey have lost land. Apparently you guys believe you have more rights than others.

[Piratis]

Greece was not created in the 1800s. Thats when Greece was liberated by the Ottoman empire.

Greeks are the ones who founded the cities and created civilization in an area much bigger than Greece of today.

For you reclaiming what was violently taken away from Greeks means "expanding"?? Expanding is stealing what was never yours from somebody else. Cyprus cities for example were already build when Ottomans and later Turks invaded us. They didn't build anything themselves here, they stole what was already created.

[bg_turk]

Greece never existed as a single unitary state at the time when Ottomans came. It was part of the Byzantine empire, which albeit dominated by greeks, inheritted the Eastern Roman Empire and did not only control greek territories, it controlled slavic, arabic, albanian territories, and brutally taxed and opressed the non-greeks. Byzantium enslaved Bulgaria for more than two centuries. This empire commited acts of horrific savagery, you even had an emperor who was called a "Bulgarian Killer". So stop acting like you were very civilised and build nice towns. You conquered these many of these towns!

Ancient Greece, to which you claim you are ancestors, was not a single unitary state either, it consisted of many stateslets, which even fought against each other (sparta and athens).

So your claim that Greece existed before the turks came is wrong. Greece as a nationalist hellene state started to exist only after its liberation,before that it was either a part of an empire (Roman, Macedonian, Byzantium) or completely fractured, and under these considerations, it remains the only balkan state to have continously expanded throught its history, and at the same time arrogantly accuse others of expansionist policeis against herself.

[Piratis]

Greece never existed as a single unitary state at the time when Ottomans came.

Many times Greek cities were united in the past, even Sparta and Athens fought side by side against the Persians. Maybe the systems were different in that time, but this doesn't mean that Greek territories were less Greek.

The Byzantines were not as bad as the Turks. I never claimed that they were anything very bright in the Greek history though, and your complains for them are rightful in the most part. Also I never claimed that the areas that the Byzantines had in their empire that were not Greek should have been transfered to Greece. But Thessaloníki (that you talked before) was founded around 300BC and it is a Greek city, not a Bulgarian one.

By the way, I have many Bulgarian friends from college, and while they have the same feelings for that "Bulgarian Killer" Byzantine guy, they also agree with us that the Ottomans were brutal and should have never came to our areas.

Turks are the expansionists. If they were not, they should have stayed up in Mongolia, and never come to steal what others have created.

Even recently they illegally invaded cyprus, and they have claims in the Aegean. If thats not expansionistic policies then I don't know what is!