Cyprus-Forum.com

[cannedmoose]

On the basis of your previous posts which were riddled with accusations and offensive remarks that would have offended members of this forum, I stand by my earlier remark. If you prove otherwise through a generally improved manner of posting, then I will retract it at a later stage.

P.S. Complaints about moderators, as admin stated in another thread, should be directed firstly to the moderator in question and then to admin alone if a satisfactory reply is not received. They should not be posted on the forum. It is for this reason alone that I am replying to you in this way. Had you had the decency to approach me individually I would have explained to you why I had posted that remark.

[Alexandros Lordos]

I posted an opinion in this forum in which I made no personal insult to anybody and yet one of your moderators deleted the entire posting with the excuse that I was implying war, although I did not even used the word.

In that particular post, you accused everyone who participates in this forum to be a traitor and a fattened "rayia" who is negotiating with the enemy, furthermore you accused every person of Turkish ethnic origin of being a barbarian. Just because you accused everyone as opposed to someone in particular does not make it more acceptable.

You also suggested that dialogue is useless and we should be in the gyms preparing for war. If you believe that, then what did you come here to discuss?

I suppose if your post was not insulting, but still advocated war as the only option for a solution, perhaps I would not have deleted it. If this is your opinion on how to solve the Cyprus Problem, you have every right to express it just as everyone else has every right to disagree and/or ignore your comments.

Before me, two other Turkish forum members made postings that equate to a support and/or advertising of the illegal results of an illegal war and yet none of them was deleted by your moderators.

Again, people in this forum are free to advocate any kind of "solution" they envisage, even if some of us consider such solutions to be inappropriate, illegal, or immoral. If you disagree you are free to express your strong disagreement, but without personal insults.

As I said, the purpose of this forum is dialogue. If you believe that dialogue is useless and you prefer the army camp, you are free to move on. If you wish to try dialogue but then also go to the army camp "in case dialogue doesn't work", you are again free to do so. So long as you don't confuse the two, bringing your war and your target practice into this forum.

Furthermore, One of your moderators has insulted me personally by calling me brainwashed

That post was indeed inappropriate and it has been deleted.

[cannedmoose]

Furthermore, One of your moderators has insulted me personally by calling me brainwashed

That post was indeed inappropriate and it has been deleted.

I would note that I do not function in the capacity of moderator of this section of the forum, therefore if I feel someone is being offensive and demonstrating integral bias , I will continue to make that clear. However, I agree with Alex's verdict and will do so in more 'respectful' terms in future.

[Murtaza]

Peh,
we saw worse word than brainwashing.
I dont call it as a insult.
Specialy If It aimed this guy.

[faruk]

First i want to start with EOKA. AS opppose to your knowledge it is an terrorist organization formed to send away the british people then terminate Turkish Cypriots and finally to unite the island with Greece or engage it to Greece. this terrorist organization formed in 1952 with the secret meetings and the head of it was Makarios. So lots of Turkish people were killed many of them were lost because of EOKA. although these events you can say there was no ethnic cleanensing done by EOKA furhermore papadopulos could say even one Turkish Cypriot was not killed between 1963 and 1974 so you can be colsulted by Loucas Haralambos. He knows the truth. and one thing more if you wanted the libarete island so why did you tried to engage to Greece. if i am not wrong the purpose of the EOKA was ENOSIS which means to engage the island to Greece.
when I wrote first your claim was about meeting i think and you said they wont work or let me mention it better you do not believe them. And if they would provide some good things they could be held. so You seemed in peaceful manner but you show your real face with your comments like " We will take our land back, and it is up to you if this will happen peacefully or not." We have always wanted it in peaceful way and we will struggle for our just contention in peaucefull ways. There is one truth in island is that two state and will be two state.
may be you can see some countries such as Pakistan but let me remind you that you get your de facto representative position with the helps of non-alaigned group that are in your MU list. so you had to be unrecognised now. and Republic of Turkey has been a secular state and has muslim citizents only and more modern than Greek Administration of South Cyprus. Besides EU is not a compulsory club for us. there are another ways to pursue.

[Piratis]

There is one truth in island is that two state and will be two state.

The truth is that there is one state on this island, and one illegal pseudo state that exists only because the Turkish tanks do not allow legality to be applied in that part of the island.

So you can keep your illegal pseudo state that is based on ethnic cleansing until the Turkish army is not able to force the illegality anymore.

[Piratis]

Well you said GC never ethnical cleansed (by your defination) TC. This is clearly not true. No body flees their home leving behind their possessions and worldly goods at the command of a political leadership. If TP told you to flee your home and go and live in a cave in the hills to get GC desire in Cyprus would you go? I don't think so.

I wouldn't go because partition is not my aim. However the dream of many TCs of that time was partition, so moving from their land and going to some other land was apparently what they wanted and obviously their aim was to take a lot more than what they left behind as it was proven later on. So I don't deny the part of the blame of the GCs in that time, but you should admit that TCs had a part of the blame also.

I am not saying we should get more than we had before. I am saying that the return of all GC to their former homes would mean that only TC pay the price of what happened and this is what you keep demanding. In a settlement we can go back to the same or similar % that we had in 60 as ar as I am concerned - but it may not be the exact same lands, for TC have spent 30 years building a life in the north, most of them without any culpability in what happened personaly, yet you want all of these people to be made refugeees today so that there will be no GC refugees at all. That's not sharing the pain of a settlement, thats saying TC will bear all of the burden.

Ok, first of all when I said that the TCs want to get more than what they had before I am not talking just for land. E.g. before they didn't have a federal state, now they want one. They want more power than before etc etc.
The problem that you mention above can be solved easy with nobody loosing anything.
E.g the TC that currently lives in a GC home and after the solution he wants to remain in the same village/town he can:
1)buy the house from the GC.
2)sell part of his property in the south and buy another house in the same village/town.
All this will happen in comfortable time frames. I don't think that a TC that will be given some years to build another home right next to the home he used to live (and which now will be his/her own) should be considered refugee because he moved 100 meters further.

I believe that the problem is to agree on the principles. If we agree on those I would personally be more than glad to have long transitional periods that would guarantee that no Cypriot will have to feel like a refugee again.

For me our differences are that you want to offer these things as 'gifts' from GC to TC and refuse to accept we have any right to them or basis that they are a right.

No, what is a "gift" (I don't know if you can call it that way when it is forced) are things like federal state, and 50% power on things that have nothing to do with language,culture or religion (the things we differ).

Secondly you want a (small) predefined list of areas we will have equality on and I want a set of principles to determine what areas we have equality on.

Ok, now we come to the main dish. First of all I never said that the predefined list should be a small one. I believe that TCs should have this equality on the areas I said above, you can argue about some other areas also, but in the end we have to come up with something predefined. Because if it not predefined, it is unlimited 50% power on everything.

If you disagree then tell me how in practice the TCs will not have the power to block whatever they want when such predefined list does not exist.

[detailer]

I wouldn't go because partition is not my aim. However the dream of many TCs of that time was partition, so moving from their land and going to some other land was apparently what they wanted and obviously their aim was to take a lot more than what they left behind as it was proven later on. So I don't deny the part of the blame of the GCs in that time, but you should admit that TCs had a part of the blame also.

You are ridiculous my friend. We are talking about people who left their homes without taking anything with themselves.

Don't you know anything about humans, humanity? How can you think that a father takes all children leaving his past life and lets them sleep under rain for years hoping that Turkey may come one day and partition will happen.

And your claims such living as "equal cypriots" are just bullshit. How can you claim that TC were planning to get more than they have in that diffucult conditions without being extremely predejuced(Another term is appropriate actually) against us. What a shame for you.

[erolz]

I wouldn't go because partition is not my aim.

My question was if your political leadership told you to go to further the cause of a unitary Cyprus (not partition) would you go. A question you have so far avioded.

So I don't deny the part of the blame of the GCs in that time, but you should admit that TCs had a part of the blame also.

what you said was

but TCs had also blame since most of them didn't move because of fear but because it was their plan for partition (like they did in 74)

You said that MOST TC fled their homes for a poltical objective. This assertation goes against common sense, the view of independent and respect reseacrhers that stidied in detail this very issue (as found on the cyprus conflict website) and to me represents propaganda of the most extreme nature. Yes their were TC that sought to encourage people to leave their homes for political reasons and yes there were examles of TC stopping them from returning to their homes and I admit and have admitted this in the past - but to turn that into 'most TC fled (not left but FLED) thier homes in the persuit of a poltical objective of partition' is just a gross distortion of the truth. And again we have had exactly this discussion in excrutiating detail in the past and yet you can ask me if I accept that TC had part of the blame (when you state that we have most of it) !

Ok, first of all when I said that the TCs want to get more than what they had before I am not talking just for land. E.g. before they didn't have a federal state, now they want one. They want more power than before etc etc.

We want the kind of political equality we had in the 1960 consitution and was st9olen from us with force and violence and decpetion in the 60's. You personaly claim to be more than willing to go back to the 60's agreements but the reality is that GC did not want to honour or return to the 60's agreements in the 60's or the 70's or the 80's or 90's or today. The 60's agreements can not be simply returned too today, even if the GC leadership were willing to do so - which they are not and never have been. So a federal solution is not asking for more - it's trying to find a way that we can regain what we had in the 60's agreements in a framework that is practical today. In the 60's agreements the TC community had direct veto over several areas and effective veto / blocking capability in ALL others. I am prepared for a federaol solution that gives the TC considerable LESS poltical equality than this.

The problem that you mention above can be solved easy with nobody loosing anything.
E.g the TC that currently lives in a GC home and after the solution he wants to remain in the same village/town he can:
1)buy the house from the GC.
2)sell part of his property in the south and buy another house in the same village/town.
All this will happen in comfortable time frames. I don't think that a TC that will be given some years to build another home right next to the home he used to live (and which now will be his/her own) should be considered refugee because he moved 100 meters further.

And that to you is 'sharing' the pain? All GC can chose to go back or not and if they chose to not go back they will be compensated but ALL TC (living in former GC prioperty today) will have no choice. They will be REQUIRED to move from homes they have been living in for 30 years and have invested in emotionaly and finacnially, unless the GC choses to sell them the land / property, and return to derelict and demolished properties that have had no investment of time or emotion put into them for 30 years. This is your appraoch to 'sharing' the pain?

No, what is a "gift" (I don't know if you can call it that way when it is forced) are things like federal state, and 50% power on things that have nothing to do with language,culture or religion (the things we differ).

You refuse to accept we have any RIGHT to any degree of self determination - as a community or as a people. If what you 'offer' us is not based on a valid right we have as a community or people (which is what you insist) then it is not worth the paper it is written on. Rights are rights. If some for of poltical equality is not a right of the TC cdommunity then it can be removed with vastly more ease than if it it is accepted as being a right.

Ok, now we come to the main dish. First of all I never said that the predefined list should be a small one. I believe that TCs should have this equality on the areas I said above, you can argue about some other areas also, but in the end we have to come up with something predefined. Because if it not predefined, it is unlimited 50% power on everything.

If you disagree then tell me how in practice the TCs will not have the power to block whatever they want when such predefined list does not exist.

This is a dish that has been before us on many many occasion ( see http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=45828#45828 ) - yet you behave as it is a dish you have never seen before!

This has beend discussed in detail before. Why I thinik a pre defined list in insuficent - complete with hypothetical examples. What I propose as an alternative to a pre defined list (namely a set of principles) and how this could be implemented without it meaning effective blocking rightds on everything (indpendent arbitration as a last resort if their is unreconcilable differences of opinion on the application of the principles. I have neither the time or the will to explain all og this yet again in any more detail.

[faruk]

when Greek administration finished the Republic of Cyprus then caused the separation and proved that two society can not live together because of Greeks. you caused to this situation and you have to appropriate TRNC.


another subject is that the side who made ethniic cleansing was Greeks. How could Turkish people make it without weapon. and after 11 years of torture, raping and killing Turkish people by Greeks Turkey came and had a peace keeping action and save Turkish Cypriots and also Greeks who were killling theirselves eachother. Greeks did not made discrimination only for one subject and it was the killing Turkish Cypriots without any discrimination that was HE or SHE old or young or even baby or civilian.

and Turkey will always have the power to keep her just struggle for TRNC. do not worry for this ok? but i am not sure for you? can you last your illegal de facto state?