Cyprus-Forum.com

[DT.]

But, my dear Kikapu, the Annan plan was presented as a whole,it was not negotiable....That is why it was rejected by the GCs,the concessions given to them was simply not good enough for them...They thought,as you indirectly point out,they could get more after they join the EU....

Bir, what where these concessions given to us in the Annan plan? I've been racking my brain.

[BirKibrisli]

You think Cyprus is like ANY country would be under occupation...????
You are forgetting that for a very sizeable minority Cyprus is not under occupation but liberated...The force you call the occupational force is for them the force which saved them from certain extinction....But of course they don't matter to you....They didnt matter when you were calling for Enosis in the 50s....They didn't matter during the 3 years of joint government....They didn't matter between 1963-74....And they don't matter now....They are the despised minority,the Ottoman remnants which should be isolated and embargoes till they go away and leave Cyprus to their rightful owners??? Is that is??? Is that your liberal,democratic,progressive thinking??? True apartheid in Cyprus was between 1963 and 74....The TCs were stripped of all political power,isolated,and left to rot in their own chook pens....Where was the very admirable GC sense of democracy and human rights then,Oracle???
Who is beeing a bigggg hypocrite now???? And who has racist talk about the Turks and the TCs?????

Bir,

i know that what you write is generally affected by also who you write it to but a while ago, this is what a Cypriot once said on this forum.

Viewpoint,i know my ideas are utopian to you,but to the rest of the world they come under common human decency.I cannot have peace if it is built on other people's misery.I don't want to live in a state built on stolen land,guarded by 40,000 troops.I don't want to live in a pretend land,where we pretend we are masters of our own destiny,while we are run like sheep from Turkey.Peace can only be built on TRUTH and Justice,more utopian notions for you I guess.Historical fact: in Cyprus Tcs are a minority,a sizeable minority.Why can't we accept that,take off our nationalistic cape,and learn to live like Cypriots with our GC brothers and sisters.We might even learn to like them or love them one day,and forget that we were the leftovers from an imperial past.You know the Turkish saying "Gunesh balchikla sivanmaz" (You cant cover the Sun with plaster!),well we can't cover the truth forever either.We have to face it,learn to live with it.If the cost is to be killed by someone like the notorios Wake up,well that will be an honourable death,though i would prefer an hounorable life.Think about it.

You have put your finger on it,DT...I am playing devil's advocate...My basic beliefs and principles have not changed....I am just sick and tired of continuous racist and hateful attacks on Turks and the TCs....And I have accepted defeat in the sense that I know what I really want for Cyprus will not be achieved in my lifetime...If ever...So what is the point of insisting on it??? We must find a compromise solution which will reflect the realities of our sorry past...We cannot wish our past away,.pretend those terrible things didnt happen...We cannot ignore the emotional scars caused by the trauma to both communities...We need to be realistic about what is achievable...My community is bleeding to death squeezed between the GCs and Turkey,but that is not how the majority of TCs see it...They do not have my attachment to all things Cypriot...Most are quite happy to assimilate withing the big Turkish sea,if it means being safe,feeling comfortable and relaxed with the world...I am not prepared any more to risk the very existence of the TCs,in order to pursue a dream which will never be achieved...I wish we could all wake up tomorrow as Cypriots,and never give a second thought to out ethnic background or to the tragedies of our recent past....But that will not happen...I am adjusting muyself to this reality,while giving some people their own medicine back,to see how they like it....

[BirKibrisli]

But, my dear Kikapu, the Annan plan was presented as a whole,it was not negotiable....That is why it was rejected by the GCs,the concessions given to them was simply not good enough for them...They thought,as you indirectly point out,they could get more after they join the EU....

Bir, what where these concessions given to us in the Annan plan? I've been racking my brain.

Don't you go practising All-or-nothing thinking on me,DT>>>

According to the AP Turkish troops would be reduced,most of the settlers would have been repatriated,some land (including your beloved Morphou!) would have been returned,Varosia would have been opened to resettlement,a limited number of refugees would ahve been allowed back, etc etc...I know you didnt think it was enough,and guaranteeing a TC majority in the TC state was not to your liking,plus you were not so keen on the political system of voting etc,but iot was a beginning damn it...And it would have given my community some breathing space,help them get back on their feet...It was a compromise I thought any well meaning person could've lived with...Alas I was wrong...
So I am left to look for hidden motivations in the GC OHI....Do you blame me,DT???

[BirKibrisli]

Off to bed,now...It is past 3am Down Under....Please don't wait for any replies till tomorrow morning...Good night all...

[Malapapa]

The question you ought to ask yourself is : why are the GCs adamant about cutting Turkey out of the equation altogether??? And why do they want to reduce the number of Turkish troops to zero???? Knowing well these are the TCs red lines....My logic tells me it is either to preserve the status quo (after all they are running the government which was meant to be run jointly with the TCs) or to get a better deal land wise and compensation wise than what was proposed in the Annan plan...

I'm sorry to say there's a much simpler, more logical, less devious answer for why there's an unshakeable insistence that Turkey's interference and troop numbers are reduced to zero in Cyprus. One that has nothing to do with wanting to preserve the status quo or to get a better land deal.

[Oracle]

... while giving some people their own medicine back,to see how they like it....

If you gave us some of our "own medicine", you too would accept democracy, one-man-one-vote for the TCs i.e. equal to GCs, no more no less, immediate withdrawal of Turkish troops and return of GCs to their homes. Yet what you argue is for only some of the troops to return, continual guarantees from Turkey and too many concessions for the TCs plus various GAINS, things which the GCs would never dare ask for.

You are not playing devils' advocate, you just advocate special privileges for the TCs ... whereas we expect everyone to be equal, as individuals, and be satisfied with democracy and security under the auspices of the EU.

[BirKibrisli]

The question you ought to ask yourself is : why are the GCs adamant about cutting Turkey out of the equation altogether??? And why do they want to reduce the number of Turkish troops to zero???? Knowing well these are the TCs red lines....My logic tells me it is either to preserve the status quo (after all they are running the government which was meant to be run jointly with the TCs) or to get a better deal land wise and compensation wise than what was proposed in the Annan plan...

I'm sorry to say there's a much simpler, more logical, less devious answer for why there's an unshakeable insistence that Turkey's interference and troop numbers are reduced to zero in Cyprus. One that has nothing to do with wanting to preserve the status quo or to get a better land deal.

To have an "unshakable insistence" about something which you know will never be accepted by the other side,is neither logical nor less devious...
Hence i look for hidden motives...would you not???

[BirKibrisli]

... while giving some people their own medicine back,to see how they like it....

If you gave us some of our "own medicine", you too would accept democracy, one-man-one-vote for the TCs i.e. equal to GCs, no more no less, immediate withdrawal of Turkish troops and return of GCs to their homes. Yet what you argue is for only some of the troops to return, continual guarantees from Turkey and too many concessions for the TCs plus various GAINS, things which the GCs would never dare ask for.

You are not playing devils' advocate, you just advocate special privileges for the TCs ... whereas we expect everyone to be equal, as individuals, and be satisfied with democracy and security under the auspices of the EU.

you will drink your medicine till you come to your senses,Oracle...
Till you accept that there is a cause for every effect...Till you admit the Turkish jets did not drop napalm simply for fun,till you admit the TCs have a legitimate fear of oppression and domination by the GCs given the events of 50s and 60s....And till you admit that not all people are motivated by greed and financial gains....Not everything can be reduced to "democracy my style or nothing"...Till you realise Cyprus is indeed a special case,given our recent history... Till you get your head out of the sand,and see what is possible and what is not re a solution...Till you understand that labelling Turks-Tcs this and that will not get you anywhere,only the wrath of people like me with a strong sense of justice and fair play...

[Oracle]

... while giving some people their own medicine back,to see how they like it....

If you gave us some of our "own medicine", you too would accept democracy, one-man-one-vote for the TCs i.e. equal to GCs, no more no less, immediate withdrawal of Turkish troops and return of GCs to their homes. Yet what you argue is for only some of the troops to return, continual guarantees from Turkey and too many concessions for the TCs plus various GAINS, things which the GCs would never dare ask for.

You are not playing devils' advocate, you just advocate special privileges for the TCs ... whereas we expect everyone to be equal, as individuals, and be satisfied with democracy and security under the auspices of the EU.

you will drink your medicine till you come to your senses,Oracle...
Till you accept that there is a cause for every effect...Till you admit the Turkish jets did not drop napalm simply for fun,till you admit the TCs have a legitimate fear of oppression and domination by the GCs given the events of 50s and 60s....And till you admit that not all people are motivated by greed and financial gains....Not everything can be reduced to "democracy my style or nothing"...Till you realise Cyprus is indeed a special case,given our recent history... Till you get your head out of the sand,and see what is possible and what is not re a solution...Till you understand that labelling Turks-Tcs this and that will not get you anywhere,only the wrath of people like me with a strong sense of justice and fair play...

I'm not interested in games Bir. Our present day reality is too nasty. It's not fun to have Turks here for any reason. They dropped those bombs and Napalm to attempt an invasion in 1964, but according to you, we GCs somehow have to apologise that they failed and had to go to the bother of invading again, as "late" as 1974.

Perhaps we should play the "Oh woe is me" card too and go on forever about how awful our past was under the Ottomans, Brits etc ... but we're used to being oppressed and our survival mechanism is to always do what's right in the long term .... If you cannot drop your unfair demands, we'll find a way to secure our future and freedom for Cyprus the long way .... and we don't have to apologise to our invaders for ANYTHING!

[Malapapa]

I'm sorry to say there's a much simpler, more logical, less devious answer for why there's an unshakeable insistence that Turkey's interference and troop numbers are reduced to zero in Cyprus. One that has nothing to do with wanting to preserve the status quo or to get a better land deal.

To have an "unshakable insistence" about something which you know will never be accepted by the other side,is neither logical nor less devious...
Hence i look for hidden motives...would you not???

Can you think of a greater motive than fear? Logic goes out the window. Deviousness doesn't even come into it. You're silly to look for hidden motives.

Whether what is insisted on will be accepted or not is immaterial. Safety comes first. Now, if this same fear genuinely exists for the TCs, without the continued presence of this unprofessional, indisciplined, unreformed and unpunished army of proven executioners, rapists (including senior officers), ethnic cleansers, torturers, looters and destroyers of cultural heritage, then it's a deal breaker. Of course it's a deal breaker.