Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

from all the postings bir has posted one can safely assume, masters in the north and partners in the south...sorry bir but your insistence on "poor me" leaves me no other alternative...

PS...President X has apologised, but talat stayed quite...

Talat stayed quiet because he was told to stay quiet...We are Poor cousins in the North and despised minority in the South...The game is up...Now I know you are all acting in unison to achieve your aim of Partition,but with maximum land and compensation for the GCs...

Boomer and Bir,

Boomer, with all due respect, I need to correct you. Christofias did not apologise to the TCs, because doing so would have opened a lot of legal and political problems to himself and the RoC, if it's not reciprocated also by the other side. What Christofias did say, was to acknowledge that wrongs have been done to the TCs. There is a huge difference. But since Talat did not respond in kind to even acknowledge that wrongs has also been done to the GCs so to meet each other half way towards a formal recognition of wrong doings by both sides in the hope of formal apologies to follow at later stage, Talat kept quite, therefore in hind sight, Christofias was correct in approaching this issue in the way he did, otherwise if he just came out and made a formal apology to the TCs for the past events, that would have been used against him to demand more concessions in the settlement talks..

Bir, I found Talat’s no response in kind to Christofias as a chicken shit diplomacy, hence no formal apologies to come anytime soon by either side. The best that I can hope for so that all those who need apologies from the other side in order for them to move on in their lives to be able to live on the island as Cypriots, then I would make it part of the settlement referendum where it would state that both GCs and TCs were responsible for the errors of the past and that each Cypriot as apart of agreeing to a final settlement, each will acknowledge their mistakes and apologise to each other and take a solemn oath not to repeat the past mistakes on each other ever again. This however can only be done along with a settlement based on True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles to mean anything, otherwise apologies will be meaningless if we go back to the mistakes of 1960's constitution which brought most of the problems for Cyprus which did not consists any of the above principles in full, therefore asking more of the same of the 1960’s constitution in the future will only bring the same problems back. Times have changed from the 1960’s and so should the citizens of Cyprus. Lets learn from our past mistakes and not repeat them in the hopes it will not produce the same bad results as it did in the past. If we are not to trust True Democracy for a EU member state, the RoC, then how can anyone trust a system based on violations of all the basics foundations of the EU Principles. It cannot be done, and neither would the EU allow it.

A functioning BBF in the form of True Federation with the EU Principles is how numerical minorities have their right protected as equal citizens of any nation. We can see what happens to people all over the world when True Democracy is ignored so to violate the rights of the minorities by the majority and in some cases, minorities violating the rights of the majority. It is time for 100% of Cyprus to take it’s place amongst all other nations in the EU and following it’s principles. Unless you can show me that True democracy system is worse than Undemocratic system, there is ONLY one choice left for Cyprus to follow. 63% of the island is already on that path of EU Principles. We need to get the other 37% to make it 100%. This is what will save the TCs to remain as Cypriots. Anything else, as the past has proven already from 1963 until today, the time is not on the TCs side to avoid extinction from Cyprus which would make the RoC a pure “Greek” state with foreigners living in occupied north until the next chapter opens between the GCs and the Turks from Turkey in the north at some point in the future, but long after the TCs have vanished..

What you say makes perfect sense,Kikapu. Theoretically...What you advocate is the ideal solution...It is the most sensible solution...But it will not happen...for many reasons,it is too big a step to jump even for Turkey,let alone the TCs...That is why insisting on it will only perpetuate the status quo...The GCs know it,hence my strong suspicion that it is a ploy to get maximum land and compensation for their confederated state...Unless we address the emotional scars and the fear and insecurity issues of both sides,which came out of the 50s and 60s,insisting on full democracy is equal to insisting on the status quo....There must be an interim solution which will not close the doors on full integration into a Unitary state later.... What is the point for an estranged husband to insist that the wife returns to the marriage just because he has worked hard and built a new house with all the mod cons,and joined a nice club which will provide financial security in the future..The wife is bloody scared of the husband's temper,and the husband has shown no remorse,in fact he keeps blaming her for eveything and refuses to even think about counselling together....You know how it is...Cypriots are too stubborn to give in 100% to any offer,however sensible it might seem to one side...A compromise solution has to be found....Or this impass will continue for another 100 years,at least...

[BirKibrisli]

You know YFred,Only a few months ago i was on a Greek island,and on one ocassion I,and a group of about 10 young Turkish students,found myself eating watermelon,drinking coffee and softdrinks,at a complete stranger's house...We had just hiked for a few hours through vineyards with olive and fig trees,and the odd donkey tied up somewhere,and the carob and wallnut trees which reminded me of my village in Paphos back in the 60s,and we were hot and sweaty and obviously in need of refreshments,and this Greek woman invited us to her home and proceeded to feed us and give us drinks as I said...I was sitting there and thinking,vow,these people have managed to overcome their historical emnity,bitterness,hatred of the Turks,they are welcoming us (one TC and 10 Turks) in their home genuinely delighted to meet us...Then I thought of Cyprus,and how things are still as they were,mistrust,prejudice,bitterness,hatred,and suddenly it hit me....
Cypriots will never achieve this harmony...The GCs have never forgiven us for stopping their Enosis dream,and they have never stopped seeing us as a despised minority,REMNANTS OF THE OTTOMANS,as one forumer here keeps telling us......They would rather present 40% of Cyprus to Turkey on a plate,for the satisfaction of getting rid of the TCs forever...
The policy they practised during 63-74 (isolate them,squeeze them from all angles,then help them emigrate when they have had enough-MAKARIOS' VERSION OF THE FINAL SOLUTION ) is still in operation...Nothing has changed....The TCs are still isolated,embargoed,they are still leaving Cyprus in slow but steady numbers,and that is music to GC ears...No mater that they are being replaced by settlers from Turkey at a rate of 5-1....As long as the TC identity disappears from Cyprus they will consider themselves victorious....I have never seen vengence this ugly and this strong...I am in shock...

This argument is based on the premise that Greek Cypriots in general would prefer to see mainland Turks living in Cyprus rather than Turkish Cypriots. I would dispute this.

Tim,the GCs believe that if the TC identity is extinguished,then they can outmanouver Turkey diplomatically at a later date,with EU pressure,to get them to leave Cyprus...They are greatly mistaken...

[Tim Drayton]

You know YFred,Only a few months ago i was on a Greek island,and on one ocassion I,and a group of about 10 young Turkish students,found myself eating watermelon,drinking coffee and softdrinks,at a complete stranger's house...We had just hiked for a few hours through vineyards with olive and fig trees,and the odd donkey tied up somewhere,and the carob and wallnut trees which reminded me of my village in Paphos back in the 60s,and we were hot and sweaty and obviously in need of refreshments,and this Greek woman invited us to her home and proceeded to feed us and give us drinks as I said...I was sitting there and thinking,vow,these people have managed to overcome their historical emnity,bitterness,hatred of the Turks,they are welcoming us (one TC and 10 Turks) in their home genuinely delighted to meet us...Then I thought of Cyprus,and how things are still as they were,mistrust,prejudice,bitterness,hatred,and suddenly it hit me....
Cypriots will never achieve this harmony...The GCs have never forgiven us for stopping their Enosis dream,and they have never stopped seeing us as a despised minority,REMNANTS OF THE OTTOMANS,as one forumer here keeps telling us......They would rather present 40% of Cyprus to Turkey on a plate,for the satisfaction of getting rid of the TCs forever...
The policy they practised during 63-74 (isolate them,squeeze them from all angles,then help them emigrate when they have had enough-MAKARIOS' VERSION OF THE FINAL SOLUTION ) is still in operation...Nothing has changed....The TCs are still isolated,embargoed,they are still leaving Cyprus in slow but steady numbers,and that is music to GC ears...No mater that they are being replaced by settlers from Turkey at a rate of 5-1....As long as the TC identity disappears from Cyprus they will consider themselves victorious....I have never seen vengence this ugly and this strong...I am in shock...

This argument is based on the premise that Greek Cypriots in general would prefer to see mainland Turks living in Cyprus rather than Turkish Cypriots. I would dispute this.

Tim,the GCs believe that if the TC identity is extinguished,then they can outmanouver Turkey diplomatically at a later date,with EU pressure,to get them to leave Cyprus...They are greatly mistaken...

I agree that this is mistaken. I never tire of reminding people that, among other things, the Annan plan referendum set a precedent by means of which the political will of the Turkish Cypriot community has been equated with the will of everyone who holds TRNC citizenship. The latter group includes an ever greater number of mainland Turks or their Cyprus-born descendants. In the eyes of the wider world, they are all 'Turkish Cypriots'.

[BirKibrisli]

... Then I thought of Cyprus,and how things are still as they were,mistrust,prejudice,bitterness,hatred,and suddenly it hit me....
Cypriots will never achieve this harmony...

Try introducing 43,000 Turkish troops on a Greek Island, or anyone's Island/country for that matter, and see what they'll do to you, instead, with their watermelons!

You're just racist and a bigot, who thinks Cyprus is any different to anywhere else, to merely justify your racist segregationist policies.

Greece was under the Ottoman rule too,Oracle,and their liberation wasn't exactly a picnic on the beach...The two sides fought a full scale war,as late as in the early 1920s,when Greece was used by the Allies to do their dirty work in the fledgling Turkish republic...But the people did not carry the bitterness and hatred in their hearts like you do...They realised that in a conflict both sides are equally guilty,so they moved on...
I am not the one who is making racist statements...I am not the one who is selectively remembering or learning history to maintain the rage...I am not the one who is insisting on a solution you know will never be accepted,hence aiming to bring about the pARTITION OF MY COUNTRY...
oops...(hand of God??? )
You have never considered TCs as equal Cypriots,not back in the 50s or 60s or 70s....Who is the biggest bigot here???

[Oracle]

... Then I thought of Cyprus,and how things are still as they were,mistrust,prejudice,bitterness,hatred,and suddenly it hit me....
Cypriots will never achieve this harmony...

Try introducing 43,000 Turkish troops on a Greek Island, or anyone's Island/country for that matter, and see what they'll do to you, instead, with their watermelons!

You're just racist and a bigot, who thinks Cyprus is any different to anywhere else, to merely justify your racist segregationist policies.

Greece was under the Ottoman rule too,Oracle,and their liberation wasn't exactly a picnic on the beach...The two sides fought a full scale war,as late as in the early 1920s,when Greece was used by the Allies to do their dirty work in the fledgling Turkish republic...But the people did not carry the bitterness and hatred in their hearts like you do...They realised that in a conflict both sides are equally guilty,so they moved on...
I am not the one who is making racist statements...I am not the one who is selectively remembering or learning history to maintain the rage...I am not the one who is insisting on a solution you know will never be accepted,hence aiming to bring about the pARTITION OF MY COUNTRY...
oops...(hand of God??? )
You have never considered TCs as equal Cypriots,not back in the 50s or 60s or 70s....Who is the biggest bigot here???

Your anti-GC racism is self-evident with every dense remark you make.

Many countries had past conflicts but when resolved, animosities are put behind them. Such is NOT the case in Cyprus because the enemy is still here, still retains 43,000 troops, still colonises by the hundreds and thousands and still racially segregates the Greek Cypriots whilst holding on to their homes.

But of course, you wish this to remain which is why you have formulated a narrative to suit your continued apartheid of our island!

You still continue your racist thinking by making out Cyprus is a special case when it is like ANY country would be whilst under occupation. The Greeks and Italians get along just dandy, but they did NOT in WWII ... WHY? Because Italy occupied Greece! Just as Turkey currently occupies Cyprus.

[Kikapu]

What you say makes perfect sense,Kikapu. Theoretically...What you advocate is the ideal solution...It is the most sensible solution...But it will not happen...for many reasons,it is too big a step to jump even for Turkey,let alone the TCs...That is why insisting on it will only perpetuate the status quo...The GCs know it,hence my strong suspicion that it is a ploy to get maximum land and compensation for their confederated state...Unless we address the emotional scars and the fear and insecurity issues of both sides,which came out of the 50s and 60s,insisting on full democracy is equal to insisting on the status quo....There must be an interim solution which will not close the doors on full integration into a Unitary state later.... What is the point for an estranged husband to insist that the wife returns to the marriage just because he has worked hard and built a new house with all the mod cons,and joined a nice club which will provide financial security in the future..The wife is bloody scared of the husband's temper,and the husband has shown no remorse,in fact he keeps blaming her for eveything and refuses to even think about counselling together....You know how it is...Cypriots are too stubborn to give in 100% to any offer,however sensible it might seem to one side...A compromise solution has to be found....Or this impass will continue for another 100 years,at least...

Bir, in 2004 the GCs said NO to a Confederation with the AP, so I don't think that's where their intensions are. If it was to gain more land and a Confederation, they could have negotiated for a better deal leading to 2004 AP referendum. They did not. 76% said NO to "virgin birth" Confederation. If partition was what they wanted with a Confederation for a settlement, they would have joined the other 24% GCs and 65% TCs to seal the deal, because you are saying that what the GCs want is more land from the north, be a Confederate state and have a partition all rolled into one.! Again, if that was their aim, all they had to do was to negotiate it in 2004 when the AP had support from all corners. I don't think that's where their aim was. Their aim was to get the EU membership first at all costs and then use the EU membership and all the legalities afforded to the RoC to push for the BBF as prescribed in the UN resolutions knowing full well that the RoC will be fully protected by the EU to demand on the EU Principles and that's what they are doing to demand on True Federation with True Democracy. The EU will not and cannot tell the RoC to turn a blind eye to its own EU Principles, hence the fact non of the players who may have supported the Annan Plan in 2004 are no where to be found except Turkey and the remaining TCs.

Your Husband and Wife analogy does not really work here, because it makes the husband to be the only bad person in the marriage when in fact, it was both the husband and the wife who were equally guilty for the relationship going bad as you have stated above with this quote "Unless we address the emotional scars and the fear and insecurity issues of both sides". So the both sides should start new with a new approach and the new approach is the BBF with a north and south state where each community will become the majority in their own respective states providing enough land is given back to the GCs. Each states will run their own affairs in the same way as all True Federated states do under the umbrella of the Federal Government making sure each state does not go out of the boundaries of the Federal Constitution which will be written by both the communities. This system will make sure both the "wife and the husband" keep their relationship within the boundaries of their new found relationship. 99% of all the laws that govern each state are made by those who live in them. The rest are from the Federal Government run by Cypriots from all communities. All this will be a plus to all Cypriots, because there will be no losers but all winners since 100% of Cyprus is one country and one citizenship and one nation.

We do not need to start with a bad plan as a compromise by violating the Human and Democratic rights of the majority in the hopes that down the road it will become a fully Democratic Country. Did we not test this flawed idea already in 1960.?? Look how far that flawed idea got us. If the GCs are not going to get a BBF with True Federation and True Democracy as a compromise from the Unitary state they enjoy now with full recognition as a EU member, what will they gain by throwing away what they have to become something much less. I believe they will only go so far to compromise with the TCs by throwing away what they have now. They can afford to wait with the status quo and this is what I believe what Christofias meant when he said "BBF or Partition". Partition already exists but BBF does not. If BBF is not agreed on, then the present will continue will be my best guess. 2004 changed everything and the TCs options has been greatly reduced from what they had first intended by declaring independence in 1983. All their wishful thinking for a Independent sovereign state all but disappeared. Their next best option in my opinion is the BBF with True Democracy and True Federation. It can work if the TCs realise that short of an agreed partition with the GCs, the north will remain an illegal state with no future and be always at the mercy of Turkey. The problem is, TCs still believe they can get their Independent sovereign state and keep as much land in the north as possible. Annan Plan gave the TCs way too much hope and now, it is very hard for the TCs to accept that another AP is not in coming. Just like the believers of the second coming of the Christ, many TCs believe 2004 version of the AP will one day be delivered to them, so to become their own EFENDI in their own land separate from the RoC. BBF True Federation can give them almost all of that, but it will not be the Annna Plan that came so close in 2004.!

[BirKibrisli]

... Then I thought of Cyprus,and how things are still as they were,mistrust,prejudice,bitterness,hatred,and suddenly it hit me....
Cypriots will never achieve this harmony...

Try introducing 43,000 Turkish troops on a Greek Island, or anyone's Island/country for that matter, and see what they'll do to you, instead, with their watermelons!

You're just racist and a bigot, who thinks Cyprus is any different to anywhere else, to merely justify your racist segregationist policies.

Greece was under the Ottoman rule too,Oracle,and their liberation wasn't exactly a picnic on the beach...The two sides fought a full scale war,as late as in the early 1920s,when Greece was used by the Allies to do their dirty work in the fledgling Turkish republic...But the people did not carry the bitterness and hatred in their hearts like you do...They realised that in a conflict both sides are equally guilty,so they moved on...
I am not the one who is making racist statements...I am not the one who is selectively remembering or learning history to maintain the rage...I am not the one who is insisting on a solution you know will never be accepted,hence aiming to bring about the pARTITION OF MY COUNTRY...
oops...(hand of God??? )
You have never considered TCs as equal Cypriots,not back in the 50s or 60s or 70s....Who is the biggest bigot here???

Your anti-GC racism is self-evident with every dense remark you make.

Many countries had past conflicts but when resolved, animosities are put behind them. Such is NOT the case in Cyprus because the enemy is still here, still retains 43,000 troops, still colonises by the hundreds and thousands and still racially segregates the Greek Cypriots whilst holding on to their homes.

But of course, you wish this to remain which is why you have formulated a narrative to suit your continued apartheid of our island!

You still continue your racist thinking by making out Cyprus is a special case when it is like ANY country would be whilst under occupation. The Greeks and Italians get along just dandy, but they did NOT in WWII ... WHY? Because Italy occupied Greece! Just as Turkey currently occupies Cyprus.

You think Cyprus is like ANY country would be under occupation...????
You are forgetting that for a very sizeable minority Cyprus is not under occupation but liberated...The force you call the occupational force is for them the force which saved them from certain extinction....But of course they don't matter to you....They didnt matter when you were calling for Enosis in the 50s....They didn't matter during the 3 years of joint government....They didn't matter between 1963-74....And they don't matter now....They are the despised minority,the Ottoman remnants which should be isolated and embargoes till they go away and leave Cyprus to their rightful owners??? Is that is??? Is that your liberal,democratic,progressive thinking??? True apartheid in Cyprus was between 1963 and 74....The TCs were stripped of all political power,isolated,and left to rot in their own chook pens....Where was the very admirable GC sense of democracy and human rights then,Oracle???
Who is beeing a bigggg hypocrite now???? And who has racist talk about the Turks and the TCs?????

[Acikgoz]

Kika,
You raise some very interesting points.
I like the wife & husband (or marriage) comparison and one TCs generally identify themselves as the abused partner and GCs as the abusers. Plenty of evidence that neither has been a model partner so well pointed out. Taken from a different angle, many marriages simply don't work and predominantly the stated reason on a divorce is not abuse but irreconcilable differences. Here TCs are correct in the use of the analyogy of why force a union if one party cares not to be a party to it.

BBF for the sake of some form of union is not that great an argument - BBF is a bastardised version of 1960 which you too state doesn't work. Solution for its own sake does not create utopia but simply another form of existence. I understand GCs don't want to bastardise their revised constitution, what TCs are demanding if recognition is not an option screws up a pretty well functioning set-up for them. Unfortunately what works for them does not mean it works for TCs, as a democracy works better if there is greater homogeneity in the populus. By advocating BBF you are knowingly going for a flawed system, TCs know that, GCs know that, anybody that has followed Cyprus intimately knows that.

[DT.]

You think Cyprus is like ANY country would be under occupation...????
You are forgetting that for a very sizeable minority Cyprus is not under occupation but liberated...The force you call the occupational force is for them the force which saved them from certain extinction....But of course they don't matter to you....They didnt matter when you were calling for Enosis in the 50s....They didn't matter during the 3 years of joint government....They didn't matter between 1963-74....And they don't matter now....They are the despised minority,the Ottoman remnants which should be isolated and embargoes till they go away and leave Cyprus to their rightful owners??? Is that is??? Is that your liberal,democratic,progressive thinking??? True apartheid in Cyprus was between 1963 and 74....The TCs were stripped of all political power,isolated,and left to rot in their own chook pens....Where was the very admirable GC sense of democracy and human rights then,Oracle???
Who is beeing a bigggg hypocrite now???? And who has racist talk about the Turks and the TCs?????

Bir,

i know that what you write is generally affected by also who you write it to but a while ago, this is what a Cypriot once said on this forum.

Viewpoint,i know my ideas are utopian to you,but to the rest of the world they come under common human decency.I cannot have peace if it is built on other people's misery.I don't want to live in a state built on stolen land,guarded by 40,000 troops.I don't want to live in a pretend land,where we pretend we are masters of our own destiny,while we are run like sheep from Turkey.Peace can only be built on TRUTH and Justice,more utopian notions for you I guess.Historical fact: in Cyprus Tcs are a minority,a sizeable minority.Why can't we accept that,take off our nationalistic cape,and learn to live like Cypriots with our GC brothers and sisters.We might even learn to like them or love them one day,and forget that we were the leftovers from an imperial past.You know the Turkish saying "Gunesh balchikla sivanmaz" (You cant cover the Sun with plaster!),well we can't cover the truth forever either.We have to face it,learn to live with it.If the cost is to be killed by someone like the notorios Wake up,well that will be an honourable death,though i would prefer an hounorable life.Think about it.

[BirKibrisli]

What you say makes perfect sense,Kikapu. Theoretically...What you advocate is the ideal solution...It is the most sensible solution...But it will not happen...for many reasons,it is too big a step to jump even for Turkey,let alone the TCs...That is why insisting on it will only perpetuate the status quo...The GCs know it,hence my strong suspicion that it is a ploy to get maximum land and compensation for their confederated state...Unless we address the emotional scars and the fear and insecurity issues of both sides,which came out of the 50s and 60s,insisting on full democracy is equal to insisting on the status quo....There must be an interim solution which will not close the doors on full integration into a Unitary state later.... What is the point for an estranged husband to insist that the wife returns to the marriage just because he has worked hard and built a new house with all the mod cons,and joined a nice club which will provide financial security in the future..The wife is bloody scared of the husband's temper,and the husband has shown no remorse,in fact he keeps blaming her for eveything and refuses to even think about counselling together....You know how it is...Cypriots are too stubborn to give in 100% to any offer,however sensible it might seem to one side...A compromise solution has to be found....Or this impass will continue for another 100 years,at least...

Bir, in 2004 the GCs said NO to a Confederation with the AP, so I don't think that's where their intensions are. If it was to gain more land and a Confederation, they could have negotiated for a better deal leading to 2004 AP referendum. They did not. 76% said NO to "virgin birth" Confederation. If partition was what they wanted with a Confederation for a settlement, they would have joined the other 24% GCs and 65% TCs to seal the deal, because you are saying that what the GCs want is more land from the north, be a Confederate state and have a partition all rolled into one.! Again, if that was their aim, all they had to do was to negotiate it in 2004 when the AP had support from all corners. I don't think that's where their aim was. Their aim was to get the EU membership first at all costs and then use the EU membership and all the legalities afforded to the RoC to push for the BBF as prescribed in the UN resolutions knowing full well that the RoC will be fully protected by the EU to demand on the EU Principles and that's what they are doing to demand on True Federation with True Democracy. The EU will not and cannot tell the RoC to turn a blind eye to its own EU Principles, hence the fact non of the players who may have supported the Annan Plan in 2004 are no where to be found except Turkey and the remaining TCs.

Your Husband and Wife analogy does not really work here, because it makes the husband to be the only bad person in the marriage when in fact, it was both the husband and the wife who were equally guilty for the relationship going bad as you have stated above with this quote "Unless we address the emotional scars and the fear and insecurity issues of both sides". So the both sides should start new with a new approach and the new approach is the BBF with a north and south state where each community will become the majority in their own respective states providing enough land is given back to the GCs. Each states will run their own affairs in the same way as all True Federated states do under the umbrella of the Federal Government making sure each state does not go out of the boundaries of the Federal Constitution which will be written by both the communities. This system will make sure both the "wife and the husband" keep their relationship within the boundaries of their new found relationship. 99% of all the laws that govern each state are made by those who live in them. The rest are from the Federal Government run by Cypriots from all communities. All this will be a plus to all Cypriots, because there will be no losers but all winners since 100% of Cyprus is one country and one citizenship and one nation.

We do not need to start with a bad plan as a compromise by violating the Human and Democratic rights of the majority in the hopes that down the road it will become a fully Democratic Country. Did we not test this flawed idea already in 1960.?? Look how far that flawed idea got us. If the GCs are not going to get a BBF with True Federation and True Democracy as a compromise from the Unitary state they enjoy now with full recognition as a EU member, what will they gain by throwing away what they have to become something much less. I believe they will only go so far to compromise with the TCs by throwing away what they have now. They can afford to wait with the status quo and this is what I believe what Christofias meant when he said "BBF or Partition". Partition already exists but BBF does not. If BBF is not agreed on, then the present will continue will be my best guess. 2004 changed everything and the TCs options has been greatly reduced from what they had first intended by declaring independence in 1983. All their wishful thinking for a Independent sovereign state all but disappeared. Their next best option in my opinion is the BBF with True Democracy and True Federation. It can work if the TCs realise that short of an agreed partition with the GCs, the north will remain an illegal state with no future and be always at the mercy of Turkey. The problem is, TCs still believe they can get their Independent sovereign state and keep as much land in the north as possible. Annan Plan gave the TCs way too much hope and now, it is very hard for the TCs to accept that another AP is not in coming. Just like the believers of the second coming of the Christ, many TCs believe 2004 version of the AP will one day be delivered to them, so to become their own EFENDI in their own land separate from the RoC. BBF True Federation can give them almost all of that, but it will not be the Annna Plan that came so close in 2004.!

But, my dear Kikapu, the Annan plan was presented as a whole,it was not negotiable....That is why it was rejected by the GCs,the concessions given to them was simply not good enough for them...They thought,as you indirectly point out,they could get more after they join the EU...

GC people here,on this Forum, are not interested in the BBF you are talking about...They want a unitary state with one vote one value,full democracy and human rights as they keep saying...Knowing well that the TCs will never accept that...I am sure the TCs will vote tomorrow for the type of BBF you are talking about...The GCs never would...Because they think that in the end with EU pressure Turkey will agree to all their demands...You and I know that it is not going to happen...The TCs will never accept any solution which removes Turkey's power of guarantee...The question you ought to ask yourself is : why are the GCs adamant about cutting Turkey out of the equation altogether??? And why do they want to reduce the number of Turkish troops to zero???? Knowing well these are the TCs red lines....My logic tells me it is either to preserve the status quo (after all they are running the government which was meant to be run jointly with the TCs) or to get a better deal land wise and compensation wise than what was proposed in the Annan plan...
My thinking on Cyprob have not changed...I would gladly live in a unitary state with full democratic rights,nd without any ethnic background considerations...But that is not going to happen...It is not one of the options available at this stage...So why insist on it???? Knowing well it will not be accepted??? You give me a logical and realistic explanation and I will change my mind about GC motivation...