The Best Cyprus Community

Skip to content


Debate vs Abuse

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Should personally abusive postings be banned?

Poll ended at Sat Jan 02, 2010 4:15 pm

Yes
18
58%
No
13
42%
 
Total votes : 31

Postby boomerang » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:29 am

Expatkiwi wrote:
Malapapa wrote:
Expatkiwi wrote:Don't be stupid, Malapapa! In any case, at least Rauf Denktas has integrity.


And you believed him?

Expatkiwi wrote:What's your claim to fame?


Exposing the gullible.


If I am gullible, then you must be able to talk me out of my stance...


this is an impossibility coz not only you got your head stuck up where the sun don't shine, but every time you come up for air you bury your melon in fatso's ass...not only no hope but this is how you drink from the integrity fountain... :lol:
User avatar
boomerang
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 7337
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 5:56 am

Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:41 am

Expatkiwi wrote:
Kikapu wrote:Expat, you are once again asking infantile questions that reflects your inferior knowledge of the Cyprus problems. Stop looking at things in a one dimensional way to try and find the reasons as to what happened in Cyprus so that you can make justifications to satisfy your own prejudice for wanting Cyprus permanently partitioned. If one partner in a marriage wants out of being married, one can use million ways to get out of that marriage, so please, don't say things like "Also, what did the TC's have to gain by leaving the government? ", specially when we have a partition today.? Can you not connect the dots.?? Please use some thinking before you write, because everything is not Black and White or what you may have been told by Denktash. It makes you look rather very silly and no doubt you invite a lot of abuse towards yourself from others.


R. Denktas had told me that "to see Cyprus in a black and white situation is really the only way to see it clearly. Shades of Grey convolute the real issue" - he continued to say - "which is that Turkish Cypriots were not welcome in Cyprus by Greek Cypriots and we deserve no less to live here. Anything else is immaterial". How can I argue with that, Kikapu?


Ah ... but whose black and whose white do you then unquestionably accept as being the gospel truth?
User avatar
Tim Drayton
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8799
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:32 am
Location: Limassol/Lemesos

Postby DT. » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:20 am

Expatkiwi wrote:
Malapapa wrote:
Expatkiwi wrote:Don't be stupid, Malapapa! In any case, at least Rauf Denktas has integrity.


And you believed him?

Expatkiwi wrote:What's your claim to fame?


Exposing the gullible.


If I am gullible, then you must be able to talk me out of my stance...


I don't think you're gullible expat. I believe fundmentally you're prejudiced. The manner in which you sweep any wrongs done to GC's under the "they had it coming to them" rug demonstrates an obvious deliberate act to
a) Not cloud your already fragile formulated views
b) avoid having to enter into a deeper more factual debate due to your own lack of knowledge of the history of this island.

The fact that you are passionate about flags which by their own nature repesent a shallow symbol of a states actual realities makes me believe this even more.

Apologies for presuming all this about you but this is the impression you've given me.
User avatar
DT.
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12684
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:34 pm
Location: Lefkosia

Postby Tim Drayton » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:37 am

On the issue of 'black and white truth', it is useful to look at the work of

Elizabeth F. Loftus
Professor of Social Ecology, and Professor of Law, and Cognitive Science at the University of California

http://socialecology.uci.edu/faculty/eloftus/

which is summarised on her website thus:

Elizabeth Loftus studies human memory. Her experiments reveal how memories can be changed by things that we are told. Facts, ideas, suggestions and other post-event information can modify our memories. The legal field, so reliant on memories, has been a significant application of the memory research. She is also interested in psychology and law, more generally.


The fact is that two eyewitness accounts of the same crime taken shortly after the event can differ radically from one another. Here we are not talking about one brief event, but a whole complex series of events that unfolded over many years. I do not see how you can unquestionably accept one person's account of these events as being the 'black and white truth' and reject the accounts of many other well intentioned witnesses as being totally false.
User avatar
Tim Drayton
Main Contributor
Main Contributor
 
Posts: 8799
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:32 am
Location: Limassol/Lemesos

Postby denizaksulu » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:00 pm

Expatkiwi wrote:
Malapapa wrote:
Expatkiwi wrote:R. Denktas had told me that "to see Cyprus in a black and white situation is really the only way to see it clearly. Shades of Grey convolute the real issue"


If R. Denktas said black was white and day was night Expatkiwi would believe it.

Expatkiwi believes the sun shines out of R. Denktas arse; admittedly a mistake easily made given the relative sizes - and Expatkiwi's lack of analytical skills.


Don't be stupid, Malapapa! In any case, at least Rauf Denktas has integrity. What's your claim to fame?



I am sure as hell that Ayhan HIKMET and Muzaffer GURKAN can testify to your statement. (RIP).

I dont know what standards you follow. :roll:
User avatar
denizaksulu
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 36077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 11:04 am

Postby Talisker » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:00 pm

Should personally abusive postings be banned? In my opinion only in the most extreme cases, e.g. persistent trolling, unsubstantiated abuse of a possibly libellous nature, etc. Some 'abuse', if done well, can be amusing and actually add to the debate. It is a question of where to draw the line and that is the job of the moderators. Therefore, impossible for me to vote yes or no.

I enjoy the debate and finding out information on CF, but have no interest in dishing out personal abuse. If ever I've received it I ignore it.
User avatar
Talisker
Regular Contributor
Regular Contributor
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:41 pm
Location: UK

Postby Get Real! » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:23 pm

DT. wrote:I don't think you're gullible expat. I believe fundmentally you're prejudiced.

“Gullible’s Travels” was Expat’s favorite book when he was a kid… :lol:
User avatar
Get Real!
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 48333
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:25 am
Location: Nicosia

Postby denizaksulu » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:25 pm

denizaksulu wrote:
Expatkiwi wrote:
Malapapa wrote:
Expatkiwi wrote:R. Denktas had told me that "to see Cyprus in a black and white situation is really the only way to see it clearly. Shades of Grey convolute the real issue"


If R. Denktas said black was white and day was night Expatkiwi would believe it.

Expatkiwi believes the sun shines out of R. Denktas arse; admittedly a mistake easily made given the relative sizes - and Expatkiwi's lack of analytical skills.


Don't be stupid, Malapapa! In any case, at least Rauf Denktas has integrity. What's your claim to fame?



I am sure as hell that Ayhan HIKMET and Muzaffer GURKAN can testify to your statement. (RIP).

I dont know what standards you follow. :roll:



http://www.ccrj.org/13207/13901.html


I post the following link which contains references to the two journalists I mention above by Hasan Hasturer.






In the last century, our world experienced two world wars. Humanity learnt many lessons from this past experience of wars. As a result of these lessons, solving problems by using peaceful methods has been regarded as a better way than conflict.



The origin of every behaviour depends on culture. Undoubtedly the culture of a community cannot form itself . As some authors have asserted, “culture is something people inherit from the past of their community but they apply it by reshaping, considering the interrelated facts of the new situations in life”. This description states that culture is a process which can be “reshaped, related, and dynamic.”



First of all a certain political actions are planned and the masses are directed and influenced using various agencies according to these politics. The mass media, as one of these agencies, plays an important role in this process.



It must be admitted that in many countries the messages carried to the masses by the media are accepted as truths by the majority. In contrast to the people’s scepticism on individual (personal) subjects, the media outlets that are more general and which serve the national benefit are approved with an unquestioning attitude.



It is obvious that the media plays an important role to play in this. This general truth is also undoubtedly valid for Turkish, Greek, Turkish-Cypriot and Greek-Cypriot media.

Almost every country has some problems with neighbouring countries. It is not the existence and origin of the problems, but finding the methods to solve these problems that is more important. There are two major choices available:

1. Peaceful methods

2. Pursuing the conflict, even to the point of war

It is clear that the culture of conflict does not include the basic values and peaceful ways. Only in chauvinistic national movements and politics, the pro-conflict attitude is more dominant.



Unfortunately, this attitude has been dominant in Turkish-Greek relationships. The effect of national movements has sailed the ship on this course.

Turkish, Greek, Turkish-Cypriot and Greek-Cypriot media and journalists are part of the community they live in. The sources of positive and negatives news belong to the community and their environment. Therefore, the independent character of media is the mirror of their society.



Although it is possible to defend the social good with universal human values, unfortunately, nationalist and chauvinist inclinations have been preferred.

Nationalism has been in our media in an effective way for many years. With this consciousness and also with the psychology of guilt the source of these problems is sought in the rival society or country’s media. However all journalists who have common sense and inquisitive minds complain about the national movement in their media.



The effect of nationalism on the media can create a distance, and create a conflict, between what journalists think and what they write. Some time ago, I asked one of my Turkish Cypriot journalist friends, known for his nationalistic and chauvinist attitude, whether he believed in what he wrote. The answer I got led me to discover a serious conflict between his words and opinions. It can be easily seen that the politics and nationalism are determiners.



At this point, I would like to ask a question. In which is nationalism more dominant: the Greek-Cypriot or the Turkish-Cypriot media? In fact it is just a waste of time to ask this question and search for an answer because both are the same. There are not any serious differences between them. Up until now our media have not taken any positive roles in the relations between Turkish-Cypriot and Greek-Cypriot communities. To the contrary, they have shared the guilt of the negatives. Before specifically focusing on and delving deeper into Cyprus issues, if we look at the last half of the 20th century the experience is consistent. Although there have been some positive samples in the last few years, there cannot be seen as enough.



For a better future, positive lessons should be taken from the past and used to build the future. At this moment the Turkish-Cypriot and Greek-Cypriot Media are have a serious responsibility. It is not possible to have a single media for the two communities. It does not matter how much effort we put in, there will always be anti-peace opinions. The most important thing is not to follow the past mistakes and not to go with the nationalistic flow.

I strongly believe that we can get over every barrier if we do journalism without identifying ourselves with politicians and formal politics.



We must succeed in being independent of formal politics. In some situations you can witness that journalists looking for the agenda of collective politics to express themselves instead of expressing their own opinions and ideas. In other words they answer the questions according to the policies of the government. Journalism should not have a nationality. Almost all of us try to be in the harmony with formal politics by using our self-control with care. This care should not take us away from objective journalism.



Journalists should possess the courage to oppose formal politics. They should obey the universal principles of their job. If we want to contribute to this new peace period in Cyprus, firstly we should get rid of the taboos and prejudices. Is this easy? It is certainly not.



After stating these general principles, I would like to deal with the issue in a more concrete way by giving examples. The history of Greek Cypriots is older than that of Turkish Cypriots. In 1571, after Ottomans conquered the island, Turkish people were taken to Cyprus to become the ancestors of today’s Turkish-Cypriot community. In the pages of our history, we cannot see any serious agitation between these two communities until the recent conflicts. But neither were there any spontaneous or planned (organized) efforts to create a shared Cypriot identity.



Almost all newspapers to begin publication became the national voice of their societies and took part in this division. Conflict journalism predominated over independent journalism. In fact I do not want to continue drawing comparisons with our Greek Cypriot counterparts. If I did, I might inadvertently reach another conflict point. I would like to continue by focusing on our evolution in the Turkish Cypriot community. If we begin our journey from the 1950s to the present day the situation can be more easily understood.



In the Turkish Cypriot society, there was an increase in the number of newspapers in the 1950’s. In that period, the sound of the last footsteps of British colonialism could be heard. In other terms, it was understood that British colonialism was ending on the island. In the Turkish Cypriot community, there newspapers that displayed left wing ideology besides those that proclaimed a nationalistic line. It was interesting that British colonial rule was more against the leftist newspapers.



The magical hands of certain actors planted the seeds of an ethnic conflict by using the nationalistic media. In the Greek community an underground armed organization named EOKA, and in Turkish society one called TMT, were formed in 1955. Then it became harder for the media to promote peace. In 1960 Cyprus Republic was born almost as an orphan. In the Greek part the desire to connect the island to Greece was named as ENOSIS and in Turkish part this was called TAKSIM, which meant to divide the island into two parts. This intention was kept in mind. In other words minds were divided before the island.



In that period Cumhuriyet newspaper was launched in the Turkish Cypriot media. The newspaper was published by two young lawyers named Ayhan Hikmet and Muzaffer Gürkan. This newspaper supported the republic, in other words peace against nationalistic movements. However, these two young men could not continue for long time because they were killed by the underground organization as a result of the following event. Bayraktar mosque in the Greek part of Nicosia was bombed by the conflict provocateurs but blamed on the Greek. Their aim was to start a fight between the two communities by making use of the mosque bombing as propaganda. Cumhuriyet newspaper uncovered this plot and as soon as they came very close to revealing the real criminals, the two owners were killed.



At the end of 1963 the fighting had started on the island. Turkish Cypriots were isolated from Cyprus Republic and put in a very difficult situation in every way. Greek Cypriots were blamed for the hard life condition experienced by Turkish Cypriots. In a situation like that it was impossible for journalists to criticise the formal politics and support peace.

The Turkish Cypriots community has been the one to experience the longest period of martial law. This situation continued till 1974.



After 1974 a new stage to the conflict began. Although those who were holding the political power were unwilling to change, the international focus on Cyprus affected the situation in a positive way. We did not possess a peaceful situation in Western sense but compared to the past, I can comfortably say that we were in a better situation. However, this improvement was not enough to take the pressure off the media. I think the identifications such as “national mission”, “national benefit”; “the history of being Turkish,” and “moral values” are out of date in developed countries.



In our environment the media is under the pressure of these abstract concepts. Those who hold political power mostly think that the Cyprus problem is an unfinished case and all journalists should be the lawyers of this. Especially the military leaders who come from the underground organization are disturbed by the pro-peace stance of media. This group’s vision depends on violence. Kutlu Adali, a journalist, was killed in 1995 because of his writings. The murderers have not been found yet and the case is still under the investigation of European Human Rights Court.



Another example of violence is the fate of Avrupa, newspaper which was bombed many times and the criminals never found. The journalists who support peace have been under threat in every way. The journalists who support peace have been denied the support of society for a long period. The main reason of this is that people compare everything to Greek side. The writings of the Greek fanatics have been translated and presented to Turkish Cypriot society. A society that is provided with such information expects its journalists to answer these.



Fortunately, over the last two years this situation has shown a positive change. The hard outcome of status quo politics has made people understand the reality. And at this point the pro-peace journalists have gained the support of the masses. Huge demonstrations for peace have been organized with the contribution of all the pro-peace news outlets including TV and radio. In North Cyprus the role of the media in the peace process has been very interesting and should be studied further. In North Cyprus our job as journalists is still very difficult. We must maintain our professionalism by striking a balance between patriotism and peace, while avoiding narrow nationalistic views. There are a lot of journalists who have succeeded in this. Supporting peace means shake up half a century of status quo.



I see hope for the future. The source of this hope is the positive change in the Turkish Cypriot community. Everybody who has lived on this island has paid a high price. Now we want to enjoy the beauties of our paradise island. There is still the effects of chauvinism. We have started to change but not yet completed it. In our conditions the journalists who support democracy, peace, human rights and the right of law are not only journalists, but also volunteers for peace. We will probably be more successful in doing our job by taking our society one step forward at a time. Journalism and politics is not possible if they are kept away from the community. As media practitioners we have got involved in many mistakes but now that we are on the way to peace we want to contribute to these efforts and share and enjoy their benefits. Supporting peace means supporting life.
User avatar
denizaksulu
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 36077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 11:04 am

Postby denizaksulu » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:29 pm

Talisker wrote:Should personally abusive postings be banned? In my opinion only in the most extreme cases, e.g. persistent trolling, unsubstantiated abuse of a possibly libellous nature, etc. Some 'abuse', if done well, can be amusing and actually add to the debate. It is a question of where to draw the line and that is the job of the moderators. Therefore, impossible for me to vote yes or no.

I enjoy the debate and finding out information on CF, but have no interest in dishing out personal abuse. If ever I've received it I ignore it.


As Oracle has pointed out some cowards will hide behind their own language to personally abuse others. This is despicable. If they are brave enough, 'hodiri meydan'. :?
User avatar
denizaksulu
Forum Addict
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 36077
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 11:04 am

Postby DT. » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:38 pm

Get Real! wrote:
DT. wrote:I don't think you're gullible expat. I believe fundmentally you're prejudiced.

“Gullible’s Travels” was Expat’s favorite book when he was a kid… :lol:


Thus grew his fondness for the little tc people. :lol:
User avatar
DT.
Leading Contributor
Leading Contributor
 
Posts: 12684
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:34 pm
Location: Lefkosia

PreviousNext

Return to Cyprus Problem

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests