Cyprus-Forum.com

[boomerang]

Did oracle instruct you to say this?

why, coz you think i am fascist or a sheep?...

[Talisker]

Tell us Talikser, how would we achieve this unitary state you aspire. Give as your proposed methodology of how to go about it. Try to convince us that it can be done.

I have an answer but it is idealistic. I don't see the rush. The ultimate aim MUST BE one man one vote democracy, otherwise Cyprus will be at odds with all of Europe, and it is an EU member state, and much of the rest of the world. Therefore, realistically in my view, any Cypriot who does not aspire to such a democratic system does not belong to modern, free Europe. If this is the agreed aim then the question is how to bring it about. Of course, this is simplistic - TCs need to realise that they face a better future in a reunified, democratic Cyprus than they do in the unrecognised, illegitimate and illegal, occupied and stolen, part of Cyprus. Do they want to become Turks (because that is their destiny unless they reunite) or do they want to become fully-fledged Europeans within a united Cyprus? All of this requires forward, and not backward, thinking because all parties have made mistakes in the past. In my opinion the RoC government should be encouraging TCs to come south, incentivise with guarantees of safety and grants to restore properties and start businesses (especially jointly with GCs). I put some of these ideas forward in the thread 'Demographic change for reunification' (http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27881). The idea would be that TCs would, in time, see that it is possible to live safely and prosperously with GCs in the south, that the demographics in the north would be altered as TCs come south to the better future that is possible there for the coming generations. The other consequences of such a policy are discussed in the thread. Face it - GCs will never be happy with losing part of their island, including huge amounts of privately owned property, to an illegal, brutal invasion by Turkey. The upcoming generations of TCs will look across to the south, see the opportunities there (including the chance to proudly be a legitimised citizen of a recognised nation state), and move there eventually anyway if they have any ambition and drive. The illegal occupation, and supposed protection of decreasing numbers of TCs, by the Turkish military will become even more of an embarrassment and obstacle to Turkish aspirations for EU membership or other recognition and acceptance within the wider world. Therefore, the RoC government needs a long-term strategy for reintegration, leading to trust and prosperity, and removing any thoughts of partition.

The other advantage of this long-term strategy, which might take 20-30 years to successfully bring about a reunified, reintegrated, democratic, single-state Cyprus, is that the negativity from those who experienced the 1950s-1974 period in Cypriot history will slowly be lost. The upcoming generations will want to build their own Cyprus, one which transcends the difficulties of the past, looking forward and and taking full advantage of being a nation within the EU. So, if I was a GC I would resist any hasty, imperfect solution (as they have already done), and encourage the RoC government to pursue a policy bringing their fellow Cypriots back into the fold. Maybe one day Cyprus will see the day when someone who is currently classed as a GC would vote in a fair and free one-person-one-vote election for someone who would currently be described as a TC (and vice versa) because they believe in the policies, and are not prejudiced by the heritage of, that individual. That indication of a mature and fair democratic society surely has to be the ultimate aim.

[Bananiot]

Well, idealistic it is Talikser but furthermore, you cannot produce results on wishful thinking alone. You propose we stay as we are if what you suggest is not possible. Things will not stay as they are now however. Many Turkish Cypriots will come over (according to your wish) to the RoC, reclaim their properties and positions in the government and institutions, as set down by the Constitution and the south will be the same as the whole of Cyprus was in 1960. Meanwhile, the north will be totally Turkish and lost for ever and nobody will give a second thought about it.

Our side has understood this since 1975 and this is the reason we accepted BBF as the best solution under the circumstances. We have negotiated since 1977 along the lines of BBF and any attempt to move away from this will mean the end of Cyprus. Only some marginal people in Cyprus call for a change on the negotiation basis and one of them is the archbishop. Some others also go along with this fallacy but are not so naive as the archbishop to say this publicly.

If the majority of Greek Cypriots, however, decide that this is best for Cyprus then, the decision to burn Cyprus would have been taken the democratic way. Who can complain then? Certainly not me.

[Talisker]

Well, idealistic it is Talikser but furthermore, you cannot produce results on wishful thinking alone. You propose we stay as we are if what you suggest is not possible. Things will not stay as they are now however. Many Turkish Cypriots will come over (according to your wish) to the RoC, reclaim their properties and positions in the government and institutions, as set down by the Constitution and the south will be the same as the whole of Cyprus was in 1960. Meanwhile, the north will be totally Turkish and lost for ever and nobody will give a second thought about it.

Actually no, I'm suggesting the GCs are much more proactive in encourging TCs to come south. If the north becomes dominated demographically by settlers rather than TCs then Turkey has lost it's (unjustified in my opinion) excuse for a presence there. That changes a lot.

By the way, I think the visit to TCs schools (today?) is an excellent example of initiating the reintegration process and attempting to build trust between the communities (and great that it is targeted at the youth, the beneficiaries of a successful long-term strategy for reunification).

[BirKibrisli]

Bananiot,
I can't get over the hypocricy...People who pretend to be the champions of democracy and human rights,cannot bear to have you exercise the most basic of all democratic rights,the right to free speech!!!

And they seriously expect the TCs to trust them with their own democratic and human rights...The other puzzling thing is they want to rubbish any move which is aimed at fostering understanding and trust between our communities....It seems to be a big thread for our democracy champions... So you can say anything you like,in their democracy, as long as it is what they want to hear..otherwise you are a traitor and a disgrace to your community...You can do anything you like, in their democracy,as long as it is what they approve...And they scratch their heads wondering why there is not a rush of TCs moving to the South ,escaping their hellhole, to live in these people's version of democracy,with their version of human rights...

[halil]

Bananiot,
I can't get over the hypocricy...People who pretend to be the champions of democracy and human rights,cannot bear to have you exercise the most basic of all democratic rights,the right to free speech!!!

And they seriously expect the TCs to trust them with their own democratic and human rights...The other puzzling thing is they want to rubbish any move which is aimed at fostering understanding and trust between our communities....It seems to be a big thread for our democracy champions... So you can say anything you like,in their democracy, as long as it is what they want to hear..otherwise you are a traitor and a disgrace to your community...You can do anything you like, in their democracy,as long as it is what they approve...And they scratch their heads wondering why there is not a rush of TCs moving to the South ,escaping their hellhole, to live in these people's version of democracy,with their version of human rights...

Bir gardash below article might be very intersting for u ....also it will be very helpfull if u can translate .....It is the Talat latest interview ....he says there will be never uniter solution in Cyprus.He says it will be federal solution and more ...............

http://www.yeniduzen.com/detay.asp?a=15682&z=19

[Bananiot]

Talisker wrote

By the way, I think the visit to TCs schools (today?) is an excellent example of initiating the reintegration process and attempting to build trust between the communities (and great that it is targeted at the youth, the beneficiaries of a successful long-term strategy for reunification).

My apologies for not responding earlier. Just came back home. I am glad you approve of these visits. Turkish Cypriot pupils and teachers have in fact already visited our schools but only very few headmasters "dared" to take this important step and invite TC pupils and teacher over, which aims at better understanding of the two communities and building of trust (as you say). Most teachers in the south are hard liners who object to contacts between the two communities. Hence, only a treacle of TC teachers and pupils crossed over.

However, you write about reintegration. Sadly, this cannot happen. The events that unfolded since 1963 have made sure that the old Cyprus has been lost for ever. We played a crucial role to this effect and managed to lose the trust of even the best meaning TC's. Makarios, not only refused to implement the 1959 agreements fully, he even tried to change them, unilaterally. The nationalists on the other side jumped to the opportunity presented by our hotheads and seized their chance to mobilise people and strive for partition.

The best we can do now is try and solve the problem on the basis of BBF. The international community will only lend a helping hand if we negotiate this solution only. Any attempt to change the basis of solution will be detrimental to our cause. However, things will not be easy. There are forces in both communities that oppose such a solution (and thus oppose solution). The expected climb of Eroglu to power in April 2010 will be a hard blow to the current efforts. Those who reject BBF in our side are already praying for Eroglu to oust Talat. If Christofias and Talat cannot make spectacular progress in January and February, the picture will be very bleak for all of us.

I hope you can appreciate the above.

[Piratis]

Bananiot,
I can't get over the hypocricy...People who pretend to be the champions of democracy and human rights,cannot bear to have you exercise the most basic of all democratic rights,the right to free speech!!!

And they seriously expect the TCs to trust them with their own democratic and human rights...The other puzzling thing is they want to rubbish any move which is aimed at fostering understanding and trust between our communities....It seems to be a big thread for our democracy champions... So you can say anything you like,in their democracy, as long as it is what they want to hear..otherwise you are a traitor and a disgrace to your community...You can do anything you like, in their democracy,as long as it is what they approve...And they scratch their heads wondering why there is not a rush of TCs moving to the South ,escaping their hellhole, to live in these people's version of democracy,with their version of human rights...

Was a post of Bananiot ever deleted in the forum?

Bananiot can call others "fascists" and "bash patriots" and others can call Bananiot "traitor" and "a disgrace to the community". Where did you see any limit in free speech here??

Maybe you would prefer in Cyprus the version of free speech applied in Turkey? Where parties can be banned, websites blocked and people jailed or murdered because they dared to express their opinion? Is this the version of "free speech" we are going to have after the "solution" you and Bananiot want to force on the Cypriot people?

[boomerang]

Bananiot,
I can't get over the hypocricy...People who pretend to be the champions of democracy and human rights,cannot bear to have you exercise the most basic of all democratic rights,the right to free speech!!!

And they seriously expect the TCs to trust them with their own democratic and human rights...The other puzzling thing is they want to rubbish any move which is aimed at fostering understanding and trust between our communities....It seems to be a big thread for our democracy champions... So you can say anything you like,in their democracy, as long as it is what they want to hear..otherwise you are a traitor and a disgrace to your community...You can do anything you like, in their democracy,as long as it is what they approve...And they scratch their heads wondering why there is not a rush of TCs moving to the South ,escaping their hellhole, to live in these people's version of democracy,with their version of human rights...

Was a post of Bananiot ever deleted in the forum?

Bananiot can call others "fascists" and "bash patriots" and others can call Bananiot "traitor" and "a disgrace to the community". Where did you see any limit in free speech here??

Maybe you would prefer in Cyprus the version of free speech applied in Turkey? Where parties can be banned, websites blocked and people jailed or murdered because they dared to express their opinion? Is this the version of "free speech" we are going to have after the "solution" you and Bananiot want to force on the Cypriot people?

as i recall the banana called 76% that voted down the annan sheep...I wonder what bir has to say about this...

[Tim Drayton]

Bananiot, I would be interested in hearing a brief account of your impressions during this visit.