Cyprus-Forum.com

[Malapapa]

What are we actually selling? you dont seem to know what TCs want as your despot mindset does not allow you to understand that you have to take into account our concerns and demands, just as w ehave to take yours,you dont want the TA army we agree for them to leave,

Great. And they must never darken our door again. Please. No ifs, or buts or maybes. There has to be another way.

you dont want all the settlers to agree for tha majority to go,

You, as Cypriots, may agree, but will the settlers that are entitled to vote agree? Will Turkey agree? Talat insists they all stay.

you want more land we hand back a %,

Great, but you cannot take and keep someone's property without their permission. This works both ways. We will get into terrible legal difficulties if this fundamental premise isn't accepted.

you want one identity we are to that...

Excellent. This will benefit all.

all you do is want without understanding the other sides viewpoint. Tell us what you understand is your viewpoint?

You mean "our" viewpoint?
You tell me. But make sure they are yours and not Turkey's. The right BBf which addresses your genuine, reasonable concerns, will be acceptable to most, I believe. But NOT Turkey's. Turkey must, in the nicest possible way, be removed from the equation.

[Expatkiwi]

Sorry, Malapapa. If your logic had been followed (of not interfering if you're not part of it) by everybody else, South Africa would still have an apartheid government. It took the actions of a lot of people overseas (99.9% who never stepped foot in that country) to force enough pressure to stop that system. I don't have to step foot in Cyprus to say that I think the TC's deserve a country of their own. You don't have to agree with it as that is your right... just as it is my right to express my opinion.

[Tim Drayton]

Sorry, Malapapa. If your logic had been followed (of not interfering if you're not part of it) by everybody else, South Africa would still have an apartheid government. It took the actions of a lot of people overseas (99.9% who never stepped foot in that country) to force enough pressure to stop that system. I don't have to step foot in Cyprus to say that I think the TC's deserve a country of their own. You don't have to agree with it as that is your right... just as it is my right to express my opinion.

I think the analogy with the anti-apartheid movement is an unfortunate one, to say the least. If you study the meaning of the word 'apartheid' in Afrikaans, you will see that it has to do with splitting up and going separate ways - pretty much what you are advocating for Cyprus. The TRNC has as much legitimacy under international law as the bantustans created by apartheid did.

Do not forget that post-apartheid South Africa boasts of itself as being the 'rainbow nation' - a place where people with different ethnic and linguistic backgrounds can live together in harmony. This is the dream that supporters of reintegration and reunification have for this island. It is supporters of this dream who share the goals of the opponents of apartheid.

[Malapapa]

Sorry, Malapapa. If your logic had been followed (of not interfering if you're not part of it) by everybody else, South Africa would still have an apartheid government. It took the actions of a lot of people overseas (99.9% who never stepped foot in that country) to force enough pressure to stop that system.

I'm sorry... but this statement is proof, if proof were needed, of how incredibly ignorant you are. Apartheid is what all Cypriots, and their genuine friends must avoid in Cyprus, at all costs.

I don't have to step foot in Cyprus to say that I think the TC's deserve a country of their own. You don't have to agree with it as that is your right... just as it is my right to express my opinion.

And it is every right minded person's duty to ignore your stupidity, ignorance and hypocracy, as I will be doing from now on.

[Viewpoint]

Malapapa

Great. And they must never darken our door again. Please. No ifs, or buts or maybes. There has to be another way.

While agreeing to the removal of the TA what do you proposal for alternative security measures? obvioulsy you are also against Turkeys Greece and Uk guarantees, how do you suggest we find a compromise that will address everyone concerns? taking into account you want the army gone and I want valid security?

You, as Cypriots, may agree, but will the settlers that are entitled to vote agree? Will Turkey agree? Talat insists they all stay.

Should we not apply the principles of the EU to all settlers north and south after 1974? or is your thinking just to get rid of Turks and no other nationality given citizenship to which we did not agree?

Great, but you cannot take and keep someone's property without their permission. This works both ways. We will get into terrible legal difficulties if this fundamental premise isn't accepted.

I agree here but we have ot be practical, with the tw state in place those who properties have not been utilized in each state should be returned immediately, those that have are given the option of either compensation or alternative exchanged land, the ideology that everyone will go back is a myth and will never happen its about time refugees realized they have been played by politicians and that the majority of refugees whos properties cannot be physically returned for whatever reason will have imo have to swallow the biggest pill and to soften the blow take it with a monetary hand shake.

You mean "our" viewpoint?
You tell me. But make sure they are yours and not Turkey's. The right BBf which addresses your genuine, reasonable concerns, will be acceptable to most, I believe. But NOT Turkey's. Turkey must, in the nicest possible way, be removed from the equation.

Who is to be the judge here? you say genuine as a means of escape to pound our concerns into the ground as no concerns at all therefore not having to address them while all your cocnerns according to you are all genuine, you cannot brush aside my concerns just because you do not want to deal with them, time you realized this.

Ill let you address one of my biggest concerns which is power sharing, how will you solve the risk of TCs being brushed to one side by the GC numerical majority? What are your thoughts on a structure that will guarantee we will always have an effective say in our own future and not be left to the mercy of revenge seeking GCs?

[Malapapa]

While agreeing to the removal of the TA what do you proposal for alternative security measures? obvioulsy you are also against Turkeys Greece and Uk guarantees, how do you suggest we find a compromise that will address everyone concerns? taking into account you want the army gone and I want valid security?

I'd be happy with a professional police force, supported and trained by other forces which deal with ethnically diverse populations, eg. the Metropolitan Police, supported by robust recruitment procedures to ensure representation and prevent discrimination, and a robust and independent police complaints authority, with teeth, to investigate and deal with issues that arrise.

Should we not apply the principles of the EU to all settlers north and south after 1974? or is your thinking just to get rid of Turks and no other nationality given citizenship to which we did not agree?

I do not agree with the principle that all "TRNC" citizens should become citizens of Cyprus and the EU as a matter of course. These are people that have entered EU territory illegally and should be dealt with in the same way as any such migrant, on a case by case basis. My preference is that they be offered financial inducements to return to Turkey, or if this proves difficult that they be accommodated by other EU countries as well as Cyprus, as their numbers compared to the rest of the population, and in particular TCs, are too large to be accommodated solely by the island of Cyprus. Perhaps those that stay would need to pass a Cypriot citizenship test and swear allegiance to Cyprus.

I agree here but we have ot be practical, with the tw state in place those who properties have not been utilized in each state should be returned immediately, those that have are given the option of either compensation or alternative exchanged land, the ideology that everyone will go back is a myth and will never happen its about time refugees realized they have been played by politicians and that the majority of refugees whos properties cannot be physically returned for whatever reason will have imo have to swallow the biggest pill and to soften the blow take it with a monetary hand shake.

If they are offered a monetary handshake which thy do not accept then they will still have a right to take legal recourse which cannot be taken away. Refugees don't have to realise anything. They have rights and, if they wish, they can and will secure those rights.

Who is to be the judge here? you say genuine as a means of escape to pound our concerns into the ground as no concerns at all therefore not having to address them while all your cocnerns according to you are all genuine, you cannot brush aside my concerns just because you do not want to deal with them, time you realized this.

No. Your concerns should not be addressed at the expense of other people's rights and freedoms. And if they are, people will challenge this, as is their right.

Ill let you address one of my biggest concerns which is power sharing, how will you solve the risk of TCs being brushed to one side by the GC numerical majority? What are your thoughts on a structure that will guarantee we will always have an effective say in our own future and not be left to the mercy of revenge seeking GCs?

I think you and others have discussed this issue at length and ad nauseum, and as far as I can gather you've yet to agree. I've nothing further to add to this debate, other than what's on offer should demonstably be no different to other power-sharing models as already operating in modern, western multi-ethnic societies such as Belgium or Switzerland.

[Oracle]

Sorry, Malapapa. If your logic had been followed (of not interfering if you're not part of it) by everybody else, South Africa would still have an apartheid government. It took the actions of a lot of people overseas (99.9% who never stepped foot in that country) to force enough pressure to stop that system. I don't have to step foot in Cyprus to say that I think the TC's deserve a country of their own. You don't have to agree with it as that is your right... just as it is my right to express my opinion.

I think the analogy with the anti-apartheid movement is an unfortunate one, to say the least. If you study the meaning of the word 'apartheid' in Afrikaans, you will see that it has to do with splitting up and going separate ways - pretty much what you are advocating for Cyprus. The TRNC has as much legitimacy under international law as the bantustans created by apartheid did.

Do not forget that post-apartheid South Africa boasts of itself as being the 'rainbow nation' - a place where people with different ethnic and linguistic backgrounds can live together in harmony. This is the dream that supporters of reintegration and reunification have for this island. It is supporters of this dream who share the goals of the opponents of apartheid.

Well said Tim ...

Where is our Mandela to help end the tyranny of the invader colonialist Turks?

[Expatkiwi]

Sorry, Malapapa. If your logic had been followed (of not interfering if you're not part of it) by everybody else, South Africa would still have an apartheid government. It took the actions of a lot of people overseas (99.9% who never stepped foot in that country) to force enough pressure to stop that system.

I'm sorry... but this statement is proof, if proof were needed, of how incredibly ignorant you are. Apartheid is what all Cypriots, and their genuine friends must avoid in Cyprus, at all costs.

I don't have to step foot in Cyprus to say that I think the TC's deserve a country of their own. You don't have to agree with it as that is your right... just as it is my right to express my opinion.

And it is every right minded person's duty to ignore your stupidity, ignorance and hypocracy, as I will be doing from now on.

Caring about the Turkish Cypriots is not stupidity.
Reading about what happened to them between 1963 and 1974 is not ignorance.
Ensurance of their human rights is not hypocracy.

You want to ignore my posts? That's certainly your right to do so. To be honest, thatr makes things easier for me as I won't have any of your barbs to have to respond to any more. Ciao.

[Oracle]

Thucydides said something poignant about the stupidity of people (like Expatkiwi) who make their minds up after hearing only one side of a story ..... and then are too stupid (like conditioned dogs) to change or modify their views according to more valid later evidence.

It takes a mature individual to admit he may have been mistaken, so don't expect juveniles like Expatkiwi to admit he was wrong ....

[BirKibrisli]

Thucydides said something poignant about the stupidity of people who make their minds up after hearing only one side of a story ..... and then are too stupid (like conditioned dogs) to change or modify their views according to more valid later evidence.

It takes a mature individual to admit he may have been mistaken, so don't expect juveniles like Expatkiwi to admit he was wrong ....

Coming from Oracle,this gem of a post would be sad indeed if it wasn't hilarious...