Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

The problem with grouping the likes of Kiks, Bananiot (and Bir about 1 year ago) together is that they actually don’t belong together.

Everyone must admit that it is a far more difficult argument for the TC's to bring across rather than the GC viewpoint.

Things that happen today are far more important to people than things that happened decades ago, especially when neither side was completely innocent all those decades ago. The fact that any GC or person supporting the GC point of view (I do not include any fanatics in this grouping) only has to promote universal ideals to bring about his/her desires for this country.

EU Four Freedoms
The free movement of goods
The free movement of capital
The free movement of services
The free movement of persons


The universal declaration of human rights
Article 2
•Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty

Article 13.
•(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
•(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 17.
•(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
•(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 21.
•(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
•(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
•(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

This makes anyone’s argument a hell lot easier. Kiks regardless of his intellect of which he has in spades has an easy task here. He asks for democracy, freedoms and the respect of human rights. Bananiot on the other hand needs to go through the arduous process of convincing everyone that due to past mistakes and realpolitiks of the region...we deserve what we get. And the quicker we get it the better off we will be regardless of the tragic consequences of such a solution...

Bananiot's frustrations with the past especially the right wing-left wing contra that existed in all Med countries at that time (Greece, Spain, Portugal...) have formed his frame of mind. The people that have been in power for thus long are generally the same people that fought against the left wing thinkers he so admired.

For someone like Bananiot, we deserve what we get NOT because he is a traitor to the community of GC's, it’s actually vice versa. Babaniot has been an extremely loyal and patriotic foot soldier to the ideals he held as a group of leftists/idealists. His comradeship with the Politecheneio generation is his priority.

Without wanting to talk too much about Bananiot, (I know he hates it) his arguments make sense when you consider that his "people" have been repressed by the DEKO, EDEK ruling parties so far and betrayed by AKEL. DISY who houses so many EOKA B criminals is a confusing place for them thanks to Anastasiades the Chrysostomos (to those that voted yes in the AP).

Wrapping up, Kiks has an easy job and Bananiot has a tough one. But don't be too sure what the motives may be at the end of the day. Bananiot considering himself a fellow sufferer under the GC's and Kiks angry at the amount of harem land that got distributed to military personnel and arselicking TC's.

Just to correct you on a few pointers.
1. It is not harem Land. It is Haram Land. Harem is where your average backwork muslim keeps his wives.
2. You human rights don't mean jack shit, unless the justice system and the police force enforces it. I see no evidence of this currently, just by how the courts are dealing with the TC's claims and TCs in courts in general.
3. If you think TC will just do a Kickapoo, you have another thing coming, it will end up as two states and Bananiot will be proven right and you guys will have nothing back.
4. If TRNC does not get recognition, then TCs will move to the south and claim their land and you will be obliged to give it after 6 months.
5. You are ignoring what your policies are doing to the non-arse licking TCs and they are turning against unification in droves by voting for the old grey wolf.

Sleep well.

[boomerang]

Bir, you are having a laugh, according to you and banana I am blinkered oned viewing this situation whilst you and he and your other cronies are looking for a two sided settlement???

You are demanding we relinquish 37% of our Island, accept 10's od thousands of illegal settlers accompanied by 40,000 troops and dance to turkeys tunes. And I am one sided, well bugger me mate.

The danger to this Island is you refusal to recognise our sufferings, you playing victim consatntly, change the bloody record will you. You claim (of course you are taking your ques from Banana) I am extreme, facist, bash, and whatever else, I am merely standing up for my country so that you and your likes don't steal it from us. You are just a bunch of bullies with your might is right attitudes, like I said I can stomach that, what really pissis me off is motherfuckers like Banana who wishes to see our down side over your gains.

And for your information 76% Is very much greater than 23%, so I guess the No vote, in your book, doesn't count a?? You and he continue to bring up the 23% yes vote, all the while the 76% can go jump??? thats the attitude you display. My views don't need challenging I just need Turkey off these shores for a start.

We ALL want the same thing,B25...We want a fair and workable solution which will allow Turkey to remove most of her toops (if not all),repatriate most of the settlers,and stay out of Cypriot affairs.A solution which will allow for all refugees who want to return to practise that right...A solution which will address the fears of the TC community of being again left at the mercy of the majority GCs...They were burnt badly back in the 60s and need more tangible guarantees than the noble but intangible notions of democracy and human rights suggest...Your insistence that you will not accept anything but the unconditional removal of Turkey from the picture,without addressing the TC concerns stands in the way of such a solution...Your belief that this might be brought about by hanging out and waiting for EU pressure to work is wrong...Internal and external geopolitical factors dictate that a comprehensive solution be found first before Turkey is "off these shores" as you put it...Ignore that fact at your peril...

bir you talk a lot about the suffereing of the tcs and their need for guarrantees...have you ever thought for a minute that the gcs after what they experienced in 74 have no desire for guarantees?...

further more the dynamics in the RoC have changed the last 10 years...something the tcs need to look at closely...

pressure on turkey indeed needs to be tightened...why?...coz without it turkey's attitude, the problem was solved in 74...which still holds onto it in this day and age...otherwise we would have had a solution today...as explained to everyone, are democracy and human rights is name of the game today...

I am really surprised with your empathy tirade on the chosen race as you live in OZ and you are well aware what scale of attrocities the natives of this counry suffered, which makes the attrocities of the tcs miniscule...

remember bir, a halfway plan will lead to more problems...either you are in or you are out...and this is what the tcs really to think about...you gotta be in it to win it...

further more on the statusquo...yes tcs can hide behind their ridiculous demands but at the end of the day you are outnumbered by the settlers...so one sunny day either you will get annexed to turkey via a deal with the RoC to which you will have no say and at that point a lot of tcs will move to the south without their properties and having to accept what ever is given to them, coz as far as turkey is concerned they only want land for a base...OR...your status and reliance as a community will further erode to the point all decisions will be made by the settlers...

either you look at it your community will lose big as the gcs keep on moving up...

the tcs need to take a hard look at their expectations of a solution as they gave as much as they got in the 60s...

in summary bir, if tcs can't see what is happening with their open jail system, imposed by the liberator, what hope have we got for a solution with ridiculous demand ontop?...the tcs refusal to see the today makes a mockery out of them when continously looking at the past...

[Get Real!]

If you are really serious about finding a solution which will allow Turkey to remove herself from these shores,you have to go Bananiot's way...

Bir, you're a hilarious tagline manufacturing machine...

Out they go at just $9.99 while stocks last!

Like most Turkish Cypriots you've inherited Ottoman genes, so a bagabottis you were born and bagabottis you will die!

[boomerang]

If you are really serious about finding a solution which will allow Turkey to remove herself from these shores,you have to go Bananiot's way...

Bir, you're a hilarious tagline manufacturing machine...

Out they go at just $9.99 while stocks last!

Like most Turkish Cypriots you've inherited Ottoman genes, so a bagabottis you were born and bagabottis you will die!

what makes it even more ridiculous is the fact the tcs have no trust in the EU while the motherland wants to join the EU...can some one figure this one out?...

[Get Real!]

If you are really serious about finding a solution which will allow Turkey to remove herself from these shores,you have to go Bananiot's way...

Bir, you're a hilarious tagline manufacturing machine...

Out they go at just $9.99 while stocks last!

Like most Turkish Cypriots you've inherited Ottoman genes, so a bagabottis you were born and bagabottis you will die!

what makes it even more ridiculous is the fact the tcs have no trust in the EU while the motherland wants to join the EU...can some one figure this one out?...

They are the descendants of the Ottomans… enough said!

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, you are having a laugh, according to you and banana I am blinkered oned viewing this situation whilst you and he and your other cronies are looking for a two sided settlement???

You are demanding we relinquish 37% of our Island, accept 10's od thousands of illegal settlers accompanied by 40,000 troops and dance to turkeys tunes. And I am one sided, well bugger me mate.

The danger to this Island is you refusal to recognise our sufferings, you playing victim consatntly, change the bloody record will you. You claim (of course you are taking your ques from Banana) I am extreme, facist, bash, and whatever else, I am merely standing up for my country so that you and your likes don't steal it from us. You are just a bunch of bullies with your might is right attitudes, like I said I can stomach that, what really pissis me off is motherfuckers like Banana who wishes to see our down side over your gains.

And for your information 76% Is very much greater than 23%, so I guess the No vote, in your book, doesn't count a?? You and he continue to bring up the 23% yes vote, all the while the 76% can go jump??? thats the attitude you display. My views don't need challenging I just need Turkey off these shores for a start.

We ALL want the same thing,B25...We want a fair and workable solution which will allow Turkey to remove most of her toops (if not all),repatriate most of the settlers,and stay out of Cypriot affairs.A solution which will allow for all refugees who want to return to practise that right...A solution which will address the fears of the TC community of being again left at the mercy of the majority GCs...They were burnt badly back in the 60s and need more tangible guarantees than the noble but intangible notions of democracy and human rights suggest...Your insistence that you will not accept anything but the unconditional removal of Turkey from the picture,without addressing the TC concerns stands in the way of such a solution...Your belief that this might be brought about by hanging out and waiting for EU pressure to work is wrong...Internal and external geopolitical factors dictate that a comprehensive solution be found first before Turkey is "off these shores" as you put it...Ignore that fact at your peril...

bir you talk a lot about the suffereing of the tcs and their need for guarrantees...have you ever thought for a minute that the gcs after what they experienced in 74 have no desire for guarantees?...

further more the dynamics in the RoC have changed the last 10 years...something the tcs need to look at closely...

pressure on turkey indeed needs to be tightened...why?...coz without it turkey's attitude, the problem was solved in 74...which still holds onto it in this day and age...otherwise we would have had a solution today...as explained to everyone, are democracy and human rights is name of the game today...

I am really surprised with your empathy tirade on the chosen race as you live in OZ and you are well aware what scale of attrocities the natives of this counry suffered, which makes the attrocities of the tcs miniscule...

remember bir, a halfway plan will lead to more problems...either you are in or you are out...and this is what the tcs really to think about...you gotta be in it to win it...

further more on the statusquo...yes tcs can hide behind their ridiculous demands but at the end of the day you are outnumbered by the settlers...so one sunny day either you will get annexed to turkey via a deal with the RoC to which you will have no say and at that point a lot of tcs will move to the south without their properties and having to accept what ever is given to them, coz as far as turkey is concerned they only want land for a base...OR...your status and reliance as a community will further erode to the point all decisions will be made by the settlers...

either you look at it your community will lose big as the gcs keep on moving up...

the tcs need to take a hard look at their expectations of a solution as they gave as much as they got in the 60s...

in summary bir, if tcs can't see what is happening with their open jail system, imposed by the liberator, what hope have we got for a solution with ridiculous demand ontop?...the tcs refusal to see the today makes a mockery out of them when continously looking at the past...

I am hitting my head against a brick wall,i know,but i will try once more boomers....What happened in 74 did not happen because of the treaty of guarantee....Have you heard of the Colonels??? Greek junta??? Nicos Sampson??? coup d'etat against Makarios??? Hey boomers,remember Makarios???? Or your new found love of democracy and human rights have made you forget all???

[BirKibrisli]

If you are really serious about finding a solution which will allow Turkey to remove herself from these shores,you have to go Bananiot's way...

Bir, you're a hilarious tagline manufacturing machine...

Out they go at just $9.99 while stocks last!

Like most Turkish Cypriots you've inherited Ottoman genes, so a bagabottis you were born and bagabottis you will die!

And you recon you have no Ottoman genes,GR!?????

[boomerang]

Bir, you are having a laugh, according to you and banana I am blinkered oned viewing this situation whilst you and he and your other cronies are looking for a two sided settlement???

You are demanding we relinquish 37% of our Island, accept 10's od thousands of illegal settlers accompanied by 40,000 troops and dance to turkeys tunes. And I am one sided, well bugger me mate.

The danger to this Island is you refusal to recognise our sufferings, you playing victim consatntly, change the bloody record will you. You claim (of course you are taking your ques from Banana) I am extreme, facist, bash, and whatever else, I am merely standing up for my country so that you and your likes don't steal it from us. You are just a bunch of bullies with your might is right attitudes, like I said I can stomach that, what really pissis me off is motherfuckers like Banana who wishes to see our down side over your gains.

And for your information 76% Is very much greater than 23%, so I guess the No vote, in your book, doesn't count a?? You and he continue to bring up the 23% yes vote, all the while the 76% can go jump??? thats the attitude you display. My views don't need challenging I just need Turkey off these shores for a start.

We ALL want the same thing,B25...We want a fair and workable solution which will allow Turkey to remove most of her toops (if not all),repatriate most of the settlers,and stay out of Cypriot affairs.A solution which will allow for all refugees who want to return to practise that right...A solution which will address the fears of the TC community of being again left at the mercy of the majority GCs...They were burnt badly back in the 60s and need more tangible guarantees than the noble but intangible notions of democracy and human rights suggest...Your insistence that you will not accept anything but the unconditional removal of Turkey from the picture,without addressing the TC concerns stands in the way of such a solution...Your belief that this might be brought about by hanging out and waiting for EU pressure to work is wrong...Internal and external geopolitical factors dictate that a comprehensive solution be found first before Turkey is "off these shores" as you put it...Ignore that fact at your peril...

bir you talk a lot about the suffereing of the tcs and their need for guarrantees...have you ever thought for a minute that the gcs after what they experienced in 74 have no desire for guarantees?...

further more the dynamics in the RoC have changed the last 10 years...something the tcs need to look at closely...

pressure on turkey indeed needs to be tightened...why?...coz without it turkey's attitude, the problem was solved in 74...which still holds onto it in this day and age...otherwise we would have had a solution today...as explained to everyone, are democracy and human rights is name of the game today...

I am really surprised with your empathy tirade on the chosen race as you live in OZ and you are well aware what scale of attrocities the natives of this counry suffered, which makes the attrocities of the tcs miniscule...

remember bir, a halfway plan will lead to more problems...either you are in or you are out...and this is what the tcs really to think about...you gotta be in it to win it...

further more on the statusquo...yes tcs can hide behind their ridiculous demands but at the end of the day you are outnumbered by the settlers...so one sunny day either you will get annexed to turkey via a deal with the RoC to which you will have no say and at that point a lot of tcs will move to the south without their properties and having to accept what ever is given to them, coz as far as turkey is concerned they only want land for a base...OR...your status and reliance as a community will further erode to the point all decisions will be made by the settlers...

either you look at it your community will lose big as the gcs keep on moving up...

the tcs need to take a hard look at their expectations of a solution as they gave as much as they got in the 60s...

in summary bir, if tcs can't see what is happening with their open jail system, imposed by the liberator, what hope have we got for a solution with ridiculous demand ontop?...the tcs refusal to see the today makes a mockery out of them when continously looking at the past...

I am hitting my head against a brick wall,i know,but i will try once more boomers....What happened in 74 did not happen because of the treaty of guarantee....Have you heard of the Colonels??? Greek junta??? Nicos Sampson??? coup d'etat against Makarios??? Hey boomers,remember Makarios???? Or your new found love of democracy and human rights have made you forget all???

here we go...piradis come on down...1571, 1955 and kibris is turkish(look at posters)...bir we are talking about moving forward and you are stuck in a time warp...hasn't anything taught you living in OZ all these years?...judging by your posts I must say, sadly nothing...

coming back to your reply...greece fucked us first, then turkey fucked us second...what exactly is your point bir?...or you wanna be fucked again and this is the point you are trying to make?...

I think it's time you stop banging your head and maybe you might wanna address the points I was making one at the time rather than your shortsighted responce...

the treaty of guarantee was to stop all these....but here we go you wanting the same shit all over again?...and you call your self a realist?...

amuse me by answering this bir...why does turkey has trust in the EU system, by wanting to join the club and the tcs have no trust of such a system?...OR you think turkey will join under her own rules...and don't come back with colonels, junta, makarios sampson...its getting a bit thin...

why should any sane gcs would want to have guarantees again after what ha[[ened to them in 74?...

[boomerang]

further more to your ridiculous reply to my post why didn't the jews demand a state carved out of Germany after WW2?...I suppose hitler/germans were kind and humain to them when comparing what they suffered at the hands of the gcs, huh?...i could give you dozens such stories....but i suppose in your mind none will incompass any of them when it comes to the chosen race...gods gift to mankind and the worlds biggest and worst human abuse the world has ever seen, huh?...

bir what i find hard to comprehend is the half baked cake you are trying to serve...i like kiks thinking coz everyone walks around a winner, unlike your kind of thinking that only the tcs walk around as winners...and this is the only reality bir...

PS...do me a favour and stop accussing others of being thick...

[DT.]

The problem with grouping the likes of Kiks, Bananiot (and Bir about 1 year ago) together is that they actually don’t belong together.

Everyone must admit that it is a far more difficult argument for the TC's to bring across rather than the GC viewpoint.

Things that happen today are far more important to people than things that happened decades ago, especially when neither side was completely innocent all those decades ago. The fact that any GC or person supporting the GC point of view (I do not include any fanatics in this grouping) only has to promote universal ideals to bring about his/her desires for this country.

EU Four Freedoms
The free movement of goods
The free movement of capital
The free movement of services
The free movement of persons


The universal declaration of human rights
Article 2
•Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty

Article 13.
•(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
•(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 17.
•(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
•(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 21.
•(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
•(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
•(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

This makes anyone’s argument a hell lot easier. Kiks regardless of his intellect of which he has in spades has an easy task here. He asks for democracy, freedoms and the respect of human rights. Bananiot on the other hand needs to go through the arduous process of convincing everyone that due to past mistakes and realpolitiks of the region...we deserve what we get. And the quicker we get it the better off we will be regardless of the tragic consequences of such a solution...

Bananiot's frustrations with the past especially the right wing-left wing contra that existed in all Med countries at that time (Greece, Spain, Portugal...) have formed his frame of mind. The people that have been in power for thus long are generally the same people that fought against the left wing thinkers he so admired.

For someone like Bananiot, we deserve what we get NOT because he is a traitor to the community of GC's, it’s actually vice versa. Babaniot has been an extremely loyal and patriotic foot soldier to the ideals he held as a group of leftists/idealists. His comradeship with the Politecheneio generation is his priority.

Without wanting to talk too much about Bananiot, (I know he hates it) his arguments make sense when you consider that his "people" have been repressed by the DEKO, EDEK ruling parties so far and betrayed by AKEL. DISY who houses so many EOKA B criminals is a confusing place for them thanks to Anastasiades the Chrysostomos (to those that voted yes in the AP).

Wrapping up, Kiks has an easy job and Bananiot has a tough one. But don't be too sure what the motives may be at the end of the day. Bananiot considering himself a fellow sufferer under the GC's and Kiks angry at the amount of harem land that got distributed to military personnel and arselicking TC's.

I see you have left me out of this equation,DT...Perhaps you are wondering where do i stand now...I will tell you...I stand for reality and what is possible to achieve...Kikapu has an easy argument you say,and perhaps you are right...But that argument,hovever noble,has little chance of success...If you are really serious about finding a solution which will allow Turkey to remove herself from these shores,you have to go Bananiot's way...That is the conclusion i came to after long and careful consideration...Stop trying to pretend that events which happened in my lifetime are ancient history,best forgotten...These events are etched in TC collective consciousness and will not be removed by any intellectual argument...however noble that argument is for the Present...The past has to be dealt with if we want to find a solution...That is where I stand and will stand till the mission is accomplished...You better try to make a realistic shift in you thinking as well,DT....Else you might have to join Piratis, GR and Oracle and B25 and the rest,in their wait for the "balance of power to change" in order to liberate the North from the evil Turks and TCs...

Let’s get a little honest with each other here Bir, do you really think it’s a priority to anyone right now what 70 odd thousand TC's that are left in the north have etched in their past? I'll give you an example, in the Annan plan 850,000 GC's who had the fear of the Turkish army etched in their past were completely ignored by maintaining Turkish troops on this island and upgrading those dreaded (for GC's) guarantees.

These realistic fears of the Cypriots that are scarred, etched or currently mentally disturbed are not that important right now.

Whets the realistic goal here,

Priority 1) we need to satisfy a major power here Turkey
Priority 2) we need to satisfy/threaten the GC's enough because their vote is difficult to control from Greece or anywhere else
Priority 3) we need to satisfy/control the majority population in the north (whatever that is right now)

In the last plan we managed points 1 & 3. Point 1 was hilarious in that a shopping list was finally given to the UN by Turkey which was satisfied in full.

When it came to point 2, the GC's were never given a fair chance maybe because Tpap knew any improvements would still be lethal for this community or maybe just because he was a born rejectionist. Either way the plan was obviously not explored to its full potential for us. So the threats started coming, "After this will be chaos" yelled Clerides. "It will be a matter of months before the north is recognized" cried Anastasiades

My point is that those handling this plan expressed an arrogance regarding the wishes of the vast majority of this island. I wouldn't worry too much about what is etched in a GC's mind or a TC's mind right now. On a one to one human level I agree it’s important but not when solving this.

Now you tell me to forget the principles of democracy, human rights and the 4 EU freedoms. But Bir, when I make a shift from these ideals I'll also make a shift from far greater ideals as well and then we'll be a couple of Bananiots from a Banana Republic, that doesn't believe in democracy, people's property, people's right to move, work and live wherever they like in their own country and many more.

What made you forget these principles Bir? Principles are not meant to be adjusted based on a country's past (especially when neither parties have been whiter than white) that is why they are called principles Bir, you apply them universally regardless.

Anyway, I regretfully respect your shift and will now work in bringing you back to the light.