Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

What is really important to understand is that the GCs will not compromise on EU Charter rights, and allow their individual rights to be compromised just to satisfy Turkey or the TCs. If this is your aim Bir, then by now you should surely understand how futile your argument is, for the GCs currently have the same rights as other citizens within the EU and the same rights you enjoy as an Australian citizen. They will never compromise this for a measly few percent land exchange, or jeopardise the Republic's sovereignty over the entire island. They would much rather the occupation and current status quo to continue than to accept a Confederacy or be subjected to any foreign manipulation from Treaty of Guarantee powers, because their concerns against foreign "intervention'/invasion are well founded since foreign 'intervention'/invasion has cost the lives of many thousands. The GCs are not too concerned with the welfare of the TCs in occupied Cyprus because they are in fact quite unfounded since all TC citizens are allowed the right to reside anywhere within the Republic of Cyprus, are entitled to citizenship, have suffrage, and work. If that is not good enough, then they are also free to leave Cyprus permanently, which means the RoC may one day be negotiating with Turkish settlers, and I personally believe that we would be better off if this did eventuate.

But having said this, if Turkey/TCs would to push something entirely unpalatable or unacceptable to the GCs, then the clear determining factor can only be land distribution, for the GCs may be willing to even accept a Confederacy provided the land distribution is adequately apportioned along the lines of an 82:18 ratio. Then and only then may there be some serious discussion otherwise we will just continue with the current status quo until the TC are out of the equation completely.

Now, can you please leave politics out of this thread? Thanks!

[YFred]

If you are really serious about finding a solution which will allow Turkey to remove herself from these shores,you have to go Bananiot's way...

Bir, you're a hilarious tagline manufacturing machine...

Out they go at just $9.99 while stocks last!

Like most Turkish Cypriots you've inherited Ottoman genes, so a bagabottis you were born and bagabottis you will die!

And you recon you have no Ottoman genes,GR!?????

Like hell he doesn't. He is more of a Turk than I am. There isn't a single Even Oracle has got her Turkish genes. Can you not see how stubborn she is? The silly mare.

[Kikapu]

Now, can you please leave politics out of this thread? Thanks!

I'm sorry my Cypriot brother, Paphitis, but I need to address few points made by others and then I will stop.

Wrapping up, Kiks has an easy job and Bananiot has a tough one.

It all depends how one looks at this, DT. It is much more difficult to maintain True Democracy, Human Rights and International Laws than something that is far less, such as non of the above, as the case was with the 1960 Constitution and the Annan Plan in 2004. What I propose and stand for requires effort with checks and balances to maintain Rule of Law which is what all moderns societies in the west practice today, despite not being absolutely perfect. What Bananiot and the majority of the north want is far easier to implement than what I and all others who sees the principles of Democracy and the EU Principles as being the future for Cyprus and all Cypriots. How much effort does it really take to violate ones Democratic and Human Rights in a corrupt system of no Democracy and Human Rights.? Is this not done everyday in countries where they do not practice True Democracy.? Wasn't the rights of Cypriots violated from 1960 on until today as well, because we did not have True Democracy.? Had Annan Plan been agreed on, wasn't the individuals rights of the majority of Cypriots once again would have been violated, voluntarily.? It is much easier to maintain Undemocratic, Dictatorship, Tyranny and Theocracies types of governments and societies than a fully Democratic one. If what we want are the above non Democratic system as some suggest we should have just because they think it is much easier and more realistic to obtain than Fully Democratic system in a modern day EU member Cyprus, then I want to welcome you all to "Animal Farm".!

If the threat is that unless we become an "Animal Farm" type of a system, then the island will divide permanently, in which case nothing is lost, because it will happen naturally anyway with the blessing of those who are against True Democratic system, who believe it is unrealistic to bring to Cyprus, forgetting as the case has been proven as to what has happened to date, just because we did not have a functioning True Democracy in Cyprus under the 1960 Constitution. If that is the case, then what would be the incentive for those in the north to unify the island with EU Principles when those in the south want to form a "Animal Farm" type of a system, because all they will be doing in effect is to encourage those in the north to not seek a True Democracy, not that many in the north wanted such a system, because it would mean losing most of their ill gained land in the north.

So the end conclusion is, if you really want to create a permanent partition in Cyprus, ask for non Democratic system of government and society and that is exactly what the Fascist NeoPartitonists in the north are doing because they understand full well, that under True Democracy they do not stand a chance of permanent partition. Therefore, giving into demands based on Undemocratic, Human Rights and International Law violations just because it is much easier and more realistic to obtain in the view for some, can only mean permanent Partitioning of Cyprus. The only saving grace to prevent this from ever happening, is the fact that Cyprus's 100% territory is in the EU and Turkey wants to be an EU member which means that Cyprus holds the keys to Turkey’s EU future, therefore she cannot and will not give into those Undemocratic means, no matter how easy or realistic they may seem to some and no matter how much Turkey may demand for such measures. By giving in, Cyprus would have signed it's own permanent partition as the case would have been in 2004 with the Annan Plan.! If you want a system of "Animal Farm" then "Animal Farm" system you will get followed by a permanent partition. All you have to do is refuse True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles for Cyprus and you will all get your wishes to come true.!

[BirKibrisli]

here we go...piradis come on down...1571, 1955 and kibris is turkish(look at posters)...bir we are talking about moving forward and you are stuck in a time warp...hasn't anything taught you living in OZ all these years?...judging by your posts I must say, sadly nothing...

coming back to your reply...greece fucked us first, then turkey fucked us second...what exactly is your point bir?...or you wanna be fucked again and this is the point you are trying to make?...

I think it's time you stop banging your head and maybe you might wanna address the points I was making one at the time rather than your shortsighted responce...

the treaty of guarantee was to stop all these....but here we go you wanting the same shit all over again?...and you call your self a realist?...

amuse me by answering this bir...why does turkey has trust in the EU system, by wanting to join the club and the tcs have no trust of such a system?...OR you think turkey will join under her own rules...and don't come back with colonels, junta, makarios sampson...its getting a bit thin...

boomers,you cannot pick and choose which episodes of our recent history you are going to consider...You must look at all...I remind you people of these sad episodes because you want to simplify everything and bring it down to 'evil Turkey,just woke up one day and decided to start a little invasion'...Stop distorting our recetn history and I will stop reminding you...I forgot to mention one little episode...Do you know that one of the Junta leaders (Ioniddes if I am not mistaken) approached Makarios late 60s and asked for his cooperation to put into effect his final solution...The solution was TO EXTERNMINATE ALL TCS IN ONE NIGHT BEFOE TURKEY HAD THE TIME TO INTERVENE... Luckly for us Makarios sent him packing. This happened I am not making it up..And the TCs know about it...
You keep talking about moving on,about the virtues of democracy ,but it is impossible to do without addressing these sad episodes....Without building trust and understanding...Can't you really see this???

As to your question of Turkey's trust in the EU...who told you Turkey trusts the EU???Who told you Turkey really want to join???I have been shouting from the rooftops, the present AKP government has no trust in the EU which they see as a Christian Club....The only reason why they pretend they want to join is simply to keep the Turkish Army at bay...They know that America would not allow The TA to stage another of their now famous coups as long as Turkey is applying to join the EU....If and when that EU process is stopped the Army will step in and hang Erdogan and a few of his mates for treason...,for conspiring with the PKK to divide the Turkish Republic...Turkey's reality is much more hair-raising than you and some of the others here believe...That is why I am pulling my hair out (there is none left now ) trying to get you to agree to some sort of a BBF before Turkey's EU options run out...

[BirKibrisli]

further more to your ridiculous reply to my post why didn't the jews demand a state carved out of Germany after WW2?...I suppose hitler/germans were kind and humain to them when comparing what they suffered at the hands of the gcs, huh?...i could give you dozens such stories....but i suppose in your mind none will incompass any of them when it comes to the chosen race...gods gift to mankind and the worlds biggest and worst human abuse the world has ever seen, huh?...

bir what i find hard to comprehend is the half baked cake you are trying to serve...i like kiks thinking coz everyone walks around a winner, unlike your kind of thinking that only the tcs walk around as winners...and this is the only reality bir...

PS...do me a favour and stop accussing others of being thick...

Boomers,the history of the jews in Germany and the TCs in Cyprus is like chalk and cheese...You cannot compare the two,full stop...I will not point out the differences, you have enough intelligence to work them out....

If I knew that the democracy and human rights argument had any chance of success i would jump up and down with delight...But it does not...So we need to find a compromise,a BBF solution which adresses the TC concerns...That is why I keep harping on about our past history to get you people to realise your mistakes and finally see some sense... if you fail to come to terms with the sorry saga of Enosis in the 50s, and the Republic experiment of 60-63,and the bitter TC isolation of 63-74,we have Buckley's chance of getting the TCs to agree to a fully democratic unitary state solution... This is as obvious as night and day...It is also obvious that unless a solution is found soon ALL Cypriots will loose big time and forever...

BTW,I never accused anyone of being thick...I accused Oracle of pretending to be thick..Big difference mate...

[BirKibrisli]

The problem with grouping the likes of Kiks, Bananiot (and Bir about 1 year ago) together is that they actually don’t belong together.

Everyone must admit that it is a far more difficult argument for the TC's to bring across rather than the GC viewpoint.

Things that happen today are far more important to people than things that happened decades ago, especially when neither side was completely innocent all those decades ago. The fact that any GC or person supporting the GC point of view (I do not include any fanatics in this grouping) only has to promote universal ideals to bring about his/her desires for this country.

EU Four Freedoms
The free movement of goods
The free movement of capital
The free movement of services
The free movement of persons


The universal declaration of human rights
Article 2
•Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty

Article 13.
•(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
•(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 17.
•(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
•(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 21.
•(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.
•(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
•(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

This makes anyone’s argument a hell lot easier. Kiks regardless of his intellect of which he has in spades has an easy task here. He asks for democracy, freedoms and the respect of human rights. Bananiot on the other hand needs to go through the arduous process of convincing everyone that due to past mistakes and realpolitiks of the region...we deserve what we get. And the quicker we get it the better off we will be regardless of the tragic consequences of such a solution...

Bananiot's frustrations with the past especially the right wing-left wing contra that existed in all Med countries at that time (Greece, Spain, Portugal...) have formed his frame of mind. The people that have been in power for thus long are generally the same people that fought against the left wing thinkers he so admired.

For someone like Bananiot, we deserve what we get NOT because he is a traitor to the community of GC's, it’s actually vice versa. Babaniot has been an extremely loyal and patriotic foot soldier to the ideals he held as a group of leftists/idealists. His comradeship with the Politecheneio generation is his priority.

Without wanting to talk too much about Bananiot, (I know he hates it) his arguments make sense when you consider that his "people" have been repressed by the DEKO, EDEK ruling parties so far and betrayed by AKEL. DISY who houses so many EOKA B criminals is a confusing place for them thanks to Anastasiades the Chrysostomos (to those that voted yes in the AP).

Wrapping up, Kiks has an easy job and Bananiot has a tough one. But don't be too sure what the motives may be at the end of the day. Bananiot considering himself a fellow sufferer under the GC's and Kiks angry at the amount of harem land that got distributed to military personnel and arselicking TC's.

I see you have left me out of this equation,DT...Perhaps you are wondering where do i stand now...I will tell you...I stand for reality and what is possible to achieve...Kikapu has an easy argument you say,and perhaps you are right...But that argument,hovever noble,has little chance of success...If you are really serious about finding a solution which will allow Turkey to remove herself from these shores,you have to go Bananiot's way...That is the conclusion i came to after long and careful consideration...Stop trying to pretend that events which happened in my lifetime are ancient history,best forgotten...These events are etched in TC collective consciousness and will not be removed by any intellectual argument...however noble that argument is for the Present...The past has to be dealt with if we want to find a solution...That is where I stand and will stand till the mission is accomplished...You better try to make a realistic shift in you thinking as well,DT....Else you might have to join Piratis, GR and Oracle and B25 and the rest,in their wait for the "balance of power to change" in order to liberate the North from the evil Turks and TCs...

Let’s get a little honest with each other here Bir, do you really think it’s a priority to anyone right now what 70 odd thousand TC's that are left in the north have etched in their past? I'll give you an example, in the Annan plan 850,000 GC's who had the fear of the Turkish army etched in their past were completely ignored by maintaining Turkish troops on this island and upgrading those dreaded (for GC's) guarantees.

These realistic fears of the Cypriots that are scarred, etched or currently mentally disturbed are not that important right now.

Whets the realistic goal here,

Priority 1) we need to satisfy a major power here Turkey
Priority 2) we need to satisfy/threaten the GC's enough because their vote is difficult to control from Greece or anywhere else
Priority 3) we need to satisfy/control the majority population in the north (whatever that is right now)

In the last plan we managed points 1 & 3. Point 1 was hilarious in that a shopping list was finally given to the UN by Turkey which was satisfied in full.

When it came to point 2, the GC's were never given a fair chance maybe because Tpap knew any improvements would still be lethal for this community or maybe just because he was a born rejectionist. Either way the plan was obviously not explored to its full potential for us. So the threats started coming, "After this will be chaos" yelled Clerides. "It will be a matter of months before the north is recognized" cried Anastasiades

My point is that those handling this plan expressed an arrogance regarding the wishes of the vast majority of this island. I wouldn't worry too much about what is etched in a GC's mind or a TC's mind right now. On a one to one human level I agree it’s important but not when solving this.

Now you tell me to forget the principles of democracy, human rights and the 4 EU freedoms. But Bir, when I make a shift from these ideals I'll also make a shift from far greater ideals as well and then we'll be a couple of Bananiots from a Banana Republic, that doesn't believe in democracy, people's property, people's right to move, work and live wherever they like in their own country and many more.

What made you forget these principles Bir? Principles are not meant to be adjusted based on a country's past (especially when neither parties have been whiter than white) that is why they are called principles Bir, you apply them universally regardless.

Anyway, I regretfully respect your shift and will now work in bringing you back to the light.

Okey DT,lets get very honest...What you are saying is this...There was a family feud...The big strong husband physically and emotionally abused the wife till the wife ran away and hid in some corner doing her best to get by...The wife's big brother found the excuse to come and beat the shit out of the husband,traumatised him to the extend that he now lives in fear of Big Brother....The wife is not really happy because Big Brother is treating her as foster child,a bit of a nuisance really...The husband is now saying to wife," look a long time has past,and I have built a very nice house for us...It has all the modern cons,a lovely garden,and the beach is just across the road...The whole thing was your fault,but I will forgive you if you come back...Only you must make sure your big brother will never intervene again if things go wrong between us..."

Now if you were the wife,and if you knew that the Hubby blamed you for all that has gone wrong in the past,did nothing to change himself,and still blames you today for the beating he got ,would you trust him and return forsaking the protection and help of your big brother???? You answer me honestly and we can take it from there...

[DT.]

Okey DT,lets get very honest...What you are saying is this...There was a family feud...The big strong husband physically and emotionally abused the wife till the wife ran away and hid in some corner doing her best to get by...The wife's big brother found the excuse to come and beat the shit out of the husband,traumatised him to the extend that he now lives in fear of Big Brother....The wife is not really happy because Big Brother is treating her as foster child,a bit of a nuisance really...The husband is now saying to wife," look a long time has past,and I have built a very nice house for us...It has all the modern cons,a lovely garden,and the beach is just across the road...The whole thing was your fault,but I will forgive you if you come back...Only you must make sure your big brother will never intervene again if things go wrong between us..."

Now if you were the wife,and if you knew that the Hubby blamed you for all that has gone wrong in the past,did nothing to change himself,and still blames you today for the beating he got ,would you trust him and return forsaking the protection and help of your big brother???? You answer me honestly and we can take it from there...

Bir you left out the part that the wife and the big brother ran away with half the husbands property that was left to him by his parents. They've since been living a life of incest and are marching from priest to priest trying to get someone to recognise their love and make it official. Off course all priests so far refuse to recognise this unlawful symbiosis and the wife lives an isolated life while the brother and husband get on with their lives.

(forgot to mention the brother does have a tendency to come home late at night drunk every now and then and gives the wife a good shagging...sometime even bringing his cousins from the home country who seem to have also settled permanently in the house they took from the husband.)

Would you like me to respond to this more complete story?

[BirKibrisli]

Okey DT,lets get very honest...What you are saying is this...There was a family feud...The big strong husband physically and emotionally abused the wife till the wife ran away and hid in some corner doing her best to get by...The wife's big brother found the excuse to come and beat the shit out of the husband,traumatised him to the extend that he now lives in fear of Big Brother....The wife is not really happy because Big Brother is treating her as foster child,a bit of a nuisance really...The husband is now saying to wife," look a long time has past,and I have built a very nice house for us...It has all the modern cons,a lovely garden,and the beach is just across the road...The whole thing was your fault,but I will forgive you if you come back...Only you must make sure your big brother will never intervene again if things go wrong between us..."

Now if you were the wife,and if you knew that the Hubby blamed you for all that has gone wrong in the past,did nothing to change himself,and still blames you today for the beating he got ,would you trust him and return forsaking the protection and help of your big brother???? You answer me honestly and we can take it from there...

Bir you left out the part that the wife and the big brother ran away with half the husbands property that was left to him by his parents. They've since been living a life of incest and are marching from priest to priest trying to get someone to recognise their love and make it official. Off course all priests so far refuse to recognise this unlawful symbiosis and the wife lives an isolated life while the brother and husband get on with their lives.

(forgot to mention the brother does have a tendency to come home late at night drunk every now and then and gives the wife a good shagging...sometime even bringing his cousins from the home country who seem to have also settled permanently in the house they took from the husband.)

Would you like me to respond to this more complete story?

Sure go ahead..But what you are doing is painting a horror story according to your prejudices...The wife does not see big brother's actions in the same light..The point you ought to address is this,DT :given that the husband has shown no remorse for his past actions,and worse keeps blaming the wife for everything,and refuses to even consider counselling or anger management, can the wife possiblly return without the big brother's protection??? Even though the husband says he is now in a nice and friendly club,which will guarantee their financial future....

I am trying to point out this problem cannot be solved by intellectual or logical arguments...It is highly emotional and traumatic at its core...And nothing has been done to address the post traumatic stresses of both sides...We are wasting our time talking about democracy and human rights..We must heal the two parties first...Talk to me about that...What can be done to address that,to improve the trust,empathy and understanding which might lead to compassion...Then Justice might follow...It might make you guys feel morally superior talking about democracy and human rights,but it will not get you anywhere else...If even you,DT,can't see that,and I consider you,together with Alexios (who is nowhere to be seen anymore) as the most reasonable and sensible GCs posting on this forum,what chance do we have????
(I have left Bananiot out of the comparison because he is in a class all on his own! He thinks like a world citizen,not a GC or whatever!)...

[denizaksulu]

What has hapenned to this well intentioned thread. There are so many threads where politics can be discussed.

[Oracle]

Now, can you please leave politics out of this thread? Thanks!

I'm sorry my Cypriot brother, Paphitis, but I need to address few points made by others and then I will stop.

Wrapping up, Kiks has an easy job and Bananiot has a tough one.

It all depends how one looks at this, DT. It is much more difficult to maintain True Democracy, Human Rights and International Laws than something that is far less, such as non of the above, as the case was with the 1960 Constitution and the Annan Plan in 2004. What I propose and stand for requires effort with checks and balances to maintain Rule of Law which is what all moderns societies in the west practice today, despite not being absolutely perfect. What Bananiot and the majority of the north want is far easier to implement than what I and all others who sees the principles of Democracy and the EU Principles as being the future for Cyprus and all Cypriots. How much effort does it really take to violate ones Democratic and Human Rights in a corrupt system of no Democracy and Human Rights.? Is this not done everyday in countries where they do not practice True Democracy.? Wasn't the rights of Cypriots violated from 1960 on until today as well, because we did not have True Democracy.? Had Annan Plan been agreed on, wasn't the individuals rights of the majority of Cypriots once again would have been violated, voluntarily.? It is much easier to maintain Undemocratic, Dictatorship, Tyranny and Theocracies types of governments and societies than a fully Democratic one. If what we want are the above non Democratic system as some suggest we should have just because they think it is much easier and more realistic to obtain than Fully Democratic system in a modern day EU member Cyprus, then I want to welcome you all to "Animal Farm".!

If the threat is that unless we become an "Animal Farm" type of a system, then the island will divide permanently, in which case nothing is lost, because it will happen naturally anyway with the blessing of those who are against True Democratic system, who believe it is unrealistic to bring to Cyprus, forgetting as the case has been proven as to what has happened to date, just because we did not have a functioning True Democracy in Cyprus under the 1960 Constitution. If that is the case, then what would be the incentive for those in the north to unify the island with EU Principles when those in the south want to form a "Animal Farm" type of a system, because all they will be doing in effect is to encourage those in the north to not seek a True Democracy, not that many in the north wanted such a system, because it would mean losing most of their ill gained land in the north.

So the end conclusion is, if you really want to create a permanent partition in Cyprus, ask for non Democratic system of government and society and that is exactly what the Fascist NeoPartitonists in the north are doing because they understand full well, that under True Democracy they do not stand a chance of permanent partition. Therefore, giving into demands based on Undemocratic, Human Rights and International Law violations just because it is much easier and more realistic to obtain in the view for some, can only mean permanent Partitioning of Cyprus. The only saving grace to prevent this from ever happening, is the fact that Cyprus's 100% territory is in the EU and Turkey wants to be an EU member which means that Cyprus holds the keys to Turkey’s EU future, therefore she cannot and will not give into those Undemocratic means, no matter how easy or realistic they may seem to some and no matter how much Turkey may demand for such measures. By giving in, Cyprus would have signed it's own permanent partition as the case would have been in 2004 with the Annan Plan.! If you want a system of "Animal Farm" then "Animal Farm" system you will get followed by a permanent partition. All you have to do is refuse True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and EU Principles for Cyprus and you will all get your wishes to come true.!

Very well put!

Yup, the right course isn't always the easiest. Thanks Kikapu