Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

B25

OK, so why don't you let the TCs do the same?

Thats what I am saying allow the people to decide which state they wish to reside in.

So, following from the above you have just contrdicted yourself, it is ok for GCs to live in a TC adminstered state where you will ensure the GCs remain a minority but you won't live in a GC administered state with a GC majority. Hypocrite again, and again.

You are the ignorant one here, what I am saying is 2 states allow the people to deicde where they wish to reside but dont force us to live in a unitary state where we will have no other option but to capitulate to GC rule.

here you are again talking out of your arse.

Clearly you are the one spouting shit.

This is a clear case of you just wanting special privilages at the expense of our rights. And you say you need the guarantees, pft!

Please clarify where I have violated your rights in the above scenario?

[Piratis]

Piratis

Unfortunately VP again tried to twist what I said. I said that both sides suffered, which is a fact. I didn't say that both sides suffered equally or that both sides are to blame for the division.

The TC Partition aim came before the inter-communal conflict. Therefore you can not excuse the division as a result of the conflict and the suffering. On the contrary the TC partition aim was the most important cause for the conflict and the suffering, and today remains the sole reason for the none solution of the Cyprus Problem.

So you are back to normal Piratis of we suffered more so you are to blame, if you had any blame it means you contributed to todays division, you cannot be a little pregnant, your efforts for enosis was the catalyst to division time you realized your grave error, you cannot disregard a large portion of your population in the name of democracy and force them to do anything, if they feel strongly enough like we did they will revolt and revolt we did.

Do I need to remind you that it was the GCs who rejected the UN comprehensive solution which made sure we stay divided.

If you believe that any group of people can take up arms and start killing people whenever they don't agree with a democratic decision then it is obvious you have the same mentality as your ancestors did and you have not learned anything since then.

VP, I see the role of TCs in Cyprus as equal citizens in a united democratic Cyprus with no kind of borders and with no racist discrimination against any citizen or group.

How will guarantee this? and what will you do if it doesnt work out as per your text books and TCs are discriminated against by GCs or vice versa?

I gave many examples already of how this can be done.

If you insist that the 18% TCs should rule over 30% of land and 50% of coastline by becoming the majority of that territory by means of ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against GCs, then you will have to go back to your usual "evil GC" theories and try to explain why the "evil" GCs should be punished in that way while the "angel" TCs to be rewarded on our expense. Your "we both suffered" / "we are both to blame" argument does not explain why GCs should be punished and TCs rewarded.

The 29% will also have GCs living in it, why dont you want to allow people the right to live where ever they wish under which ever administration they want? This is not a human rights violation you wish to label it that way so that you can use your numerical advantage to force me to live in a GC state run by GCs where I will be reduced to second class citizenship. Please dont cry your usual banter of human rights and democracy as its not the principles but who will administer them that is important but you have absolutely no idea on who should administer them as you know it will be the GCs.

The GCs are the majority over the 100% of the island. You want to become the majority over 29% of the island by means of ethnic cleansing, a clear violation of our human rights. Don't lie that you want to allow people to live wherever they want, because they fact is that you want to enforce a TC majority over that 29% and you will not allow as many GCs as they want to become residents of this state.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

If you believe that any group of people can take up arms and start killing people whenever they don't agree with a democratic decision then it is obvious you have the same mentality as your ancestors did and you have not learned anything since then.

Hello this is what happens when people are dissatified and revolt eg Greece last week? there are many examples all over the world.

I gave many examples already of how this can be done.

Kindly list them, what happens when things go wrong and discrimiantion is also being camaflouged?

The GCs are the majority over the 100% of the island. You want to become the majority over 29% of the island by means of ethnic cleansing, a clear violation of our human rights. Don't lie that you want to allow people to live wherever they want, because they fact is that you want to enforce a TC majority over that 29% and you will not allow as many GCs as they want to become residents of this state.

Im not lieing why should I, I have said this many times people should be allowed to choose for themselves and not be forced to live in whichever state they wish...thats not violating anyones rights..Piratis can you please absorb what I am ssaying as you have not to this day.

[Oracle]

Im not lieing why should I, I have said this many times people should be allowed to choose for themselves and not be forced to live in whichever state they wish...thats not violating anyones rights..Piratis can you please absorb what I am ssaying as you have not to this day.

In that case we don't need "states" ... just one Cyprus where people can reclaim their rightful properties and everyone can choose where to live.

But really, you just want to gift a piece of Cyprus to Turkey and that's at the bottom of all this.

[Expatkiwi]

But really, you just want to gift a piece of Cyprus to Turkey and that's at the bottom of all this.

Funny as it may seem to you, Oracle, I don't want any part of Cyprus gifted to Turkey either. I believe in a Turkish CYPRIOT state where neither Turkey or Greece interferes.

[Piratis]

Piratis

If you believe that any group of people can take up arms and start killing people whenever they don't agree with a democratic decision then it is obvious you have the same mentality as your ancestors did and you have not learned anything since then.

Hello this is what happens when people are dissatified and revolt eg Greece last week? there are many examples all over the world.

You are confused. In Greece last week it was a demonstration. If the demonstrators started to kill innocent people trying to impose their will, then everybody would agree that such people belong to jail and they wouldn't be called "revolutionaries".

Don't confuse the right for demonstration, with taking guns and starting a conflict just because you don't agree with some democratic decision.

I gave many examples already of how this can be done.

Kindly list them, what happens when things go wrong and discrimiantion is also being camaflouged?

I listed them many times already:
- TC proportional representation at all levels
- TC veto power for constitutional changes
- Demilitarization
- International force
etc.

If you think these are not enough, then I am waiting to listen to the measures that you take in the "trnc" to ensure that discrimination does not happen against the GCs or other communities who currently live there. Clearly you are very sensitive on this issue and what you did in the "trnc", where you could do anything that you wanted, will obviously reflect these sensitivities.

The GCs are the majority over the 100% of the island. You want to become the majority over 29% of the island by means of ethnic cleansing, a clear violation of our human rights. Don't lie that you want to allow people to live wherever they want, because they fact is that you want to enforce a TC majority over that 29% and you will not allow as many GCs as they want to become residents of this state.

Im not lieing why should I, I have said this many times people should be allowed to choose for themselves and not be forced to live in whichever state they wish...thats not violating anyones rights..Piratis can you please absorb what I am ssaying as you have not to this day.

So you would accept 2 GC states in Cyprus? Because if people are allowed to become residents of whichever state they want then that is what is going to happen. Or are you going to prevent GCs from resettling in their homeland in some other way?

[Oracle]

But really, you just want to gift a piece of Cyprus to Turkey and that's at the bottom of all this.

Funny as it may seem to you, Oracle, I don't want any part of Cyprus gifted to Turkey either. I believe in a Turkish CYPRIOT state where neither Turkey or Greece interferes.

Believe what you want. You are irrelevant and not above the Law.

All of Cyprus belongs to the RoC and guaranteed by the EU.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

You are confused. In Greece last week it was a demonstration. If the demonstrators started to kill innocent people trying to impose their will, then everybody would agree that such people belong to jail and they wouldn't be called "revolutionaries".

Don't confuse the right for demonstration, with taking guns and starting a conflict just because you don't agree with some democratic decision.

Its just differing levels of revolt eg student riots in Greece or Kurds in Turkey, its a revolt against whats being forced upon them and a fight for what they believe in ours is no different.

I listed them many times already:
- TC proportional representation at all levels
- TC veto power for constitutional changes
- Demilitarization
- International force
etc.

I agree with with what you saying here but the constitution would have to be water tight and supporting a BBF with political equality.

If you think these are not enough, then I am waiting to listen to the measures that you take in the "trnc" to ensure that discrimination does not happen against the GCs or other communities who currently live there. Clearly you are very sensitive on this issue and what you did in the "trnc", where you could do anything that you wanted, will obviously reflect these sensitivities.

The GCs would be treated exacty the same as the TCs in the south.

So you would accept 2 GC states in Cyprus? Because if people are allowed to become residents of whichever state they want then that is what is going to happen. Or are you going to prevent GCs from resettling in their homeland in some other way?

No I would not accept 2 GC states as what would be the point of a BBF with political equality for me power sharing is the key issue not refugees rights or the army not even guarantees but the power sharing structure there has to be a right to say no on sensative issues where one state will be more negatively effeted than the other, this is where we get stuck, with the freedom to move and settle all over the island how will we TCs maintain our balance in power and not be pushed to one side with an effective say in our own future.

It appears no one can find the answer thats why I recommended we vote for quotas of MPs on an island wide vote. eg 50 GCs MPs and 30 TC MPs and each bill have to obtain a specified number of GC and TC to go through. The upper house will be elected from within the MPs 5GCs and 5 TCs with a minimum of 3 from each state to get a bill through on deadlock situations the President and vice president will vote together to pass or reject the bill.

So what do you think?

[Piratis]

Piratis

You are confused. In Greece last week it was a demonstration. If the demonstrators started to kill innocent people trying to impose their will, then everybody would agree that such people belong to jail and they wouldn't be called "revolutionaries".

Don't confuse the right for demonstration, with taking guns and starting a conflict just because you don't agree with some democratic decision.

Its just differing levels of revolt eg student riots in Greece or Kurds in Turkey, its a revolt against whats being forced upon them and a fight for what they believe in ours is no different.

The Kurds in Turkey are the majority over the Kurdistan region and they want their freedom. They don't want to ethnically cleanse others and steal their lands. So don't confuse yourselves with them.

I listed them many times already:
- TC proportional representation at all levels
- TC veto power for constitutional changes
- Demilitarization
- International force
etc.

I agree with with what you saying here but the constitution would have to be water tight and supporting a BBF with political equality.

If you think these are not enough, then I am waiting to listen to the measures that you take in the "trnc" to ensure that discrimination does not happen against the GCs or other communities who currently live there. Clearly you are very sensitive on this issue and what you did in the "trnc", where you could do anything that you wanted, will obviously reflect these sensitivities.

The GCs would be treated exacty the same as the TCs in the south.

So what are the measures that you take in the "trnc" to ensure that there is no discrimination against the GCs or other communities that live there?

So you would accept 2 GC states in Cyprus? Because if people are allowed to become residents of whichever state they want then that is what is going to happen. Or are you going to prevent GCs from resettling in their homeland in some other way?

No I would not accept 2 GC states as what would be the point of a BBF ...

Before you said:

Im not lieing why should I, I have said this many times people should be allowed to choose for themselves and not be forced to live in whichever state they wish...thats not violating anyones rights..Piratis can you please absorb what I am ssaying as you have not to this day.

So can people live wherever they want, in which case the GCs can return to their homes, which will result in both states having a GC majority OR you want to ethnically cleanse GCs from 29% of Cyprus and turn it into a Turkish territory?

for me power sharing is the key issue not refugees rights or the army not even guarantees but the power sharing structure there has to be a right to say no on sensative issues where one state will be more negatively effeted than the other, this is where we get stuck, with the freedom to move and settle all over the island how will we TCs maintain our balance in power and not be pushed to one side with an effective say in our own future.

But why would the GCs want to negatively affect one of the two states? If this happens then the 100s of thousands of GCs who will live in that state will also be negatively affected, not just you.

It appears no one can find the answer thats why I recommended we vote for quotas of MPs on an island wide vote. eg 50 GCs MPs and 30 TC MPs and each bill have to obtain a specified number of GC and TC to go through. The upper house will be elected from within the MPs 5GCs and 5 TCs with a minimum of 3 from each state to get a bill through on deadlock situations the President and vice president will vote together to pass or reject the bill.

So what do you think?

The correct ratio is 82 -18. In cases of sensitive matters, such as changes in the constitution, the TCs can have veto power.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

The Kurds in Turkey are the majority over the Kurdistan region and they want their freedom. They don't want to ethnically cleanse others and steal their lands. So don't confuse yourselves with them.

You cant be that stupid please try harder all I am doing is pointing out the different levels of revolt, of which the TCs action was just the same you tried to force enosis on us so we fought against it and revolted to survive.

So what are the measures that you take in the "trnc" to ensure that there is no discrimination against the GCs or other communities that live there?

Just as the ones in the south, what are you worried about? that it will be tit for tat again and if you discriminate we will do the same? its simple dont and we wont, in a unitary state we would not be givenn that option we would have to submit to GC adminisation.

So can people live wherever they want, in which case the GCs can return to their homes, which will result in both states having a GC majority OR you want to ethnically cleanse GCs from 29% of Cyprus and turn it into a Turkish territory?

Again everyone can live where they wish, its the balance of power that is the stumbling block if as you say both states are swamped by GCs how do secure our effective say in power?

But why would the GCs want to negatively affect one of the two states? If this happens then the 100s of thousands of GCs who will live in that state will also be negatively affected, not just you.

Why would it be negatively effected? it would be an island wide vote for the MPs with the highest votes, top GCs and top TCs.

The correct ratio is 82 -18. In cases of sensitive matters, such as changes in the constitution, the TCs can have veto power.

Under such a system the sensative issues would have to be outlined and there should also be a minimum vote from each state to get a bill through otherwise the 18% would have absolutely no effect.