Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

No I am not denying that the GCs has suffered much more and for longer than the TCs ever did..And I am happy to go back to 1571...Noone wants to be invaded and ruled by someone else..All empires were cruel and oppressive,some more than others...But you are making the same mistake as Piratis...Because your community suffered more and for longer,you totally dismiss the suffering of the TCs...This is where you are failing yourself and your community...As Piratis is doing...by not acknowledging the failings of your community,and calling everything fabricated lies,you are losing all credibility.

Bir, I made more than 10.000 posts in this forum and you will not find even one of them where I claim that TCs never suffered or that all suffering of TCs is fabricated lies (although certain things are indeed fabricated). You are losing your credibility by putting words in my mouth.

What I say is that GCs suffered a lot more than TCs (both in terms of casualties but also in terms of time), and that the wars and conflicts during which the suffering occurred where initiated by Turks or TCs. This is what I say, and not that TCs never suffered!

I will say it again: I fully acknowledge that TCs suffered. I fully acknowledge that GCs have committed crimes against TCs as well. I hope you will not misquote me again!

I like the truth, the whole truth, and I am not like some others who choose only the parts of history that they like and they are trying to create some false impression in order to justify yet more crimes and human rights violations.

This is a big advancement Piratis and in response I to again acknowledge that TCs are no angels and have caused GCs great hardship and losses.

Now that we all understand that both sides are to blame for todays continued division Piratis can you tell us all how you see the role of TCs in a power sharing role if we were to unite under a BBF with political equality.

[BirKibrisli]

Well,my persistence seems to be bearing fruit...Now if we could get Oracle to say "a good Turk/TC is not a dead Turk/TC", we might get somewhere...

[Piratis]

If you look in my past posts you will find a lot of posts where I state the obvious and none of them where I state things like "TCs never suffered". So Bir I am waiting an apology from you for putting words in my mouth

Unfortunately VP again tried to twist what I said. I said that both sides suffered, which is a fact. I didn't say that both sides suffered equally or that both sides are to blame for the division.

The TC Partition aim came before the inter-communal conflict. Therefore you can not excuse the division as a result of the conflict and the suffering. On the contrary the TC partition aim was the most important cause for the conflict and the suffering, and today remains the sole reason for the none solution of the Cyprus Problem.

VP, I see the role of TCs in Cyprus as equal citizens in a united democratic Cyprus with no kind of borders and with no racist discrimination against any citizen or group.

If you insist that the 18% TCs should rule over 30% of land and 50% of coastline by becoming the majority of that territory by means of ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against GCs, then you will have to go back to your usual "evil GC" theories and try to explain why the "evil" GCs should be punished in that way while the "angel" TCs to be rewarded on our expense. Your "we both suffered" / "we are both to blame" argument does not explain why GCs should be punished and TCs rewarded.

[Oracle]

Well,my persistence seems to be bearing fruit...Now if we could get Oracle to say "a good Turk/TC is not a dead Turk/TC", we might get somewhere...

Well I don't know what "fruit" you are crowing over (Piratis has always been exemplary in fairness); but as for feelings on wishing anyone "dead", I can assure you, it's not in my nature to expect the easy option

No Bir, my wish is that they are good whilst they are alive ....

[BirKibrisli]

If you look in my past posts you will find a lot of posts where I state the obvious and none of them where I state things like "TCs never suffered". So Bir I am waiting an apology from you for putting words in my mouth

Unfortunately VP again tried to twist what I said. I said that both sides suffered, which is a fact. I didn't say that both sides suffered equally or that both sides are to blame for the division.

The TC Partition aim came before the inter-communal conflict. Therefore you can not excuse the division as a result of the conflict and the suffering. On the contrary the TC partition aim was the most important cause for the conflict and the suffering, and today remains the sole reason for the none solution of the Cyprus Problem.

VP, I see the role of TCs in Cyprus as equal citizens in a united democratic Cyprus with no kind of borders and with no racist discrimination against any citizen or group.

If you insist that the 18% TCs should rule over 30% of land and 50% of coastline by becoming the majority of that territory by means of ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against GCs, then you will have to go back to your usual "evil GC" theories and try to explain why the "evil" GCs should be punished in that way while the "angel" TCs to be rewarded on our expense. Your "we both suffered" / "we are both to blame" argument does not explain why GCs should be punished and TCs rewarded.

Just as I thought we were getting somewhere!!! you go and spoil it,Piratis....It is not what you say but how you say it which leaves me with the uncomfortable feeling that you are really paying lip service to the TC pain and suffering...I dont remember reading anywhere about the TCs pain without you qualifying it somehow (but we suffered more and for longer!) You think that all is the TCs fault,not just the 74,but going all the way back to 1571...We had no business invading Cyprus,and no business pretending now to be Cypriots...you will never accept that demand for ENOSIS came first,and that was the reason the TCs took up the mantra of Taksim...Encouraged by Britain and the USA no doubt...You have never forgiven the TCs for spoiling the GC ambition of joining Greece...And deep down you really believe we deserved everything we got...And what is more you seem to enjoy the predicament the TCs find themselves in...You are quite happy to give away 1/3 of Cyprus to Turkey,as long as the TCs get nothing,zilch,of what they say they need to feel safe... From all that you have ever said,and you keep repeating it like a broken record,that is the only conclusion I can draw...Sorry about that....Anyway,good luck!!!I hope when the last TC departs from the North,in a coffin or plane,and as the millionth settler arrives,you will still think it was all worth it...

[BirKibrisli]

Well,my persistence seems to be bearing fruit...Now if we could get Oracle to say "a good Turk/TC is not a dead Turk/TC", we might get somewhere...

Well I don't know what "fruit" you are crowing over (Piratis has always been exemplary in fairness); but as for feelings on wishing anyone "dead", I can assure you, it's not in my nature to expect the easy option

No Bir, my wish is that they are good whilst they are alive ....

you seem to enjoy your little word games,Oracle...you told us what you wish...Now tell us what you think...

[Oracle]

Well,my persistence seems to be bearing fruit...Now if we could get Oracle to say "a good Turk/TC is not a dead Turk/TC", we might get somewhere...

Well I don't know what "fruit" you are crowing over (Piratis has always been exemplary in fairness); but as for feelings on wishing anyone "dead", I can assure you, it's not in my nature to expect the easy option

No Bir, my wish is that they are good whilst they are alive ....

you seem to enjoy your little word games,Oracle...you told us what you wish...Now tell us what you think...

I don't usually wait for an open invitation to unleash what I think; I have hardly been reticent.

Unlike some, I don't believe the Turks are any different to any other human beings. They are no better and no worse in their abilities. But for some reason (which can be explored elsewhere), they have chosen to improve their lot by unacceptable means. It's this behaviour which I find abhorrent. Plunder and grabbing something which belongs to someone else and trying to make it your own, at the expense of others. The law of the jungle is still practiced by Turkey on Cyprus. Why?

I am not saying it's exclusive to Turks. But Turks have taken this bad behaviour, which others are trying to tame and eventually remove from the human psyche, to a state-sponsored acceptability such that everyday folk have come to believe they are indeed the chosen people. That they are above the civilising laws which others pay heed to. They believe they can move into the homes of others (even from across the sea) preventing the GCs from moving back, and sell what they like and destroy what they don't like!

Because I don't think Turks are any different in innate ability; I don't want different laws and conditions to apply to them. I don't want them to be treated any differently (good or bad) to any other human being. If they find this hard, they need to change and not expect 5.5 Billion people to change their future course to comply with Turkish expectations.

Which is where our approaches differ, Bir. You think the Turks deserve a special status, some luxury not afforded to us mere mortals. But overcoming challenges is what helps us develop a human spirit. No short cuts. Why don't the Turks set themselves the challenge of obtaining this human spirit? To respect the rights of others. The guidelines and blue-prints (e.g. UDHC) are all available for them to follow. Written long ago and modified and improved, leaving behind harmful traits. Don't ask us to slow down/backtrack on improvements for the (slower) Turks. Make them run if they can't fly ... (a problem for Turkeys ) but try and keep up with the basic expectations of civilisation.

[Piratis]

If you look in my past posts you will find a lot of posts where I state the obvious and none of them where I state things like "TCs never suffered". So Bir I am waiting an apology from you for putting words in my mouth

Unfortunately VP again tried to twist what I said. I said that both sides suffered, which is a fact. I didn't say that both sides suffered equally or that both sides are to blame for the division.

The TC Partition aim came before the inter-communal conflict. Therefore you can not excuse the division as a result of the conflict and the suffering. On the contrary the TC partition aim was the most important cause for the conflict and the suffering, and today remains the sole reason for the none solution of the Cyprus Problem.

VP, I see the role of TCs in Cyprus as equal citizens in a united democratic Cyprus with no kind of borders and with no racist discrimination against any citizen or group.

If you insist that the 18% TCs should rule over 30% of land and 50% of coastline by becoming the majority of that territory by means of ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against GCs, then you will have to go back to your usual "evil GC" theories and try to explain why the "evil" GCs should be punished in that way while the "angel" TCs to be rewarded on our expense. Your "we both suffered" / "we are both to blame" argument does not explain why GCs should be punished and TCs rewarded.

Just as I thought we were getting somewhere!!! you go and spoil it,Piratis....It is not what you say but how you say it which leaves me with the uncomfortable feeling that you are really paying lip service to the TC pain and suffering...I dont remember reading anywhere about the TCs pain without you qualifying it somehow (but we suffered more and for longer!)

And why does this truth bother you? The Partitionist want to hide this truth because according to their one sided story they deserve all the gains that they demand today on our expense because we are supposedly the guilty ones and they are supposedly the innocent ones.

You think that all is the TCs fault,not just the 74,but going all the way back to 1571...

It is a fact that Turks and TCs initiated those wars and conflicts. But I never said that GCs always acted appropriately and that they have no fault.

We had no business invading Cyprus,and no business pretending now to be Cypriots...

Of course Turks had no business invading Cyprus. But Turks were not the only ones to do so and this doesn't make you less of a Cypriot. Latins for example also came to Cyprus in a similar way and today they are a fully integrated community within Cyprus. They respect us and we respect them. What matters is what they do now, not what their ancestors have done in the past.

you will never accept that demand for ENOSIS came first,and that was the reason the TCs took up the mantra of Taksim...Encouraged by Britain and the USA no doubt...

Our demand for enosis first came in 1821 and it was 100% our right. Cyprus instead of being under some foreign empire imposed against the will of Cypriots, would instead be part of a free Republic which Cypriots democratically choose to belong. Enosis did not require the human right violations of any Cypriot.

On the contrary Taksim requires the annihilation of the majority of Cypriots from half of their own island. This is a crime against humanity and can not be compared with the a legitimate option for self-determination such as enosis.

resolution 1541:
free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

You have never forgiven the TCs for spoiling the GC ambition of joining Greece...

I forgave them, just like my ancestors very quickly forgave the Ottoman oppressive rule and they were willing to live side by side with TCs in peace.

And deep down you really believe we deserved everything we got...

I believe you deserve what everyone of us deserves. Being equal citizens in a democratic and free Cyprus. You deserve nothing less and nothing more than what I deserve.

And what is more you seem to enjoy the predicament the TCs find themselves in...

According to them what they have now is better than being equal citizens in a democratic and free Cyprus. Ask the "average TC" and he will tell you.

You are quite happy to give away 1/3 of Cyprus to Turkey,as long as the TCs get nothing,zilch,of what they say they need to feel safe...

I am giving 1/3rd of Cyprus to nobody, neither Turkey nor TCs. The north part of Cyprus belongs to all Cypriots and can not be given neither to a foreign country nor to just one small community. I offered many options that would make the TCs feel safer in a united Cyprus, but instead of paying attention to what I write you instead come up with rumblings such as this.

From all that you have ever said,and you keep repeating it like a broken record,that is the only conclusion I can draw...Sorry about that....Anyway,good luck!!!I hope when the last TC departs from the North,in a coffin or plane,and as the millionth settler arrives,you will still think it was all worth it...

TCs and Turks are the ones who created the partition plan since the 50s. Why are you now blaming me for the results of your own plan?

What I want is a free democratic Cyprus with equal Cypriot citizens. I want all Settlers to go (with some exceptions) and all TCs and GCs who were forced out of Cyprus for one reason or another to come back if they want to.

It seems to me you care only for TCs and you expect us to sacrifice even what is most important, our human rights and democracy, in order to save them from the results of their own dream.

Instead of that you should talk to the people of your community and tell them to abandon partition of any form, to accept democracy and human rights for all, to stop serving the interests of Turkey in Cyprus, and then to negotiate within this framework for a solution that will serve the interests of all Cypriots and not just their own.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Unfortunately VP again tried to twist what I said. I said that both sides suffered, which is a fact. I didn't say that both sides suffered equally or that both sides are to blame for the division.

The TC Partition aim came before the inter-communal conflict. Therefore you can not excuse the division as a result of the conflict and the suffering. On the contrary the TC partition aim was the most important cause for the conflict and the suffering, and today remains the sole reason for the none solution of the Cyprus Problem.

So you are back to normal Piratis of we suffered more so you are to blame, if you had any blame it means you contributed to todays division, you cannot be a little pregnant, your efforts for enosis was the catalyst to division time you realized your grave error, you cannot disregard a large portion of your population in the name of democracy and force them to do anything, if they feel strongly enough like we did they will revolt and revolt we did.

Do I need to remind you that it was the GCs who rejected the UN comprehensive solution which made sure we stay divided.

VP, I see the role of TCs in Cyprus as equal citizens in a united democratic Cyprus with no kind of borders and with no racist discrimination against any citizen or group.

How will guarantee this? and what will you do if it doesnt work out as per your text books and TCs are discriminated against by GCs or vice versa?

If you insist that the 18% TCs should rule over 30% of land and 50% of coastline by becoming the majority of that territory by means of ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against GCs, then you will have to go back to your usual "evil GC" theories and try to explain why the "evil" GCs should be punished in that way while the "angel" TCs to be rewarded on our expense. Your "we both suffered" / "we are both to blame" argument does not explain why GCs should be punished and TCs rewarded.

The 29% will also have GCs living in it, why dont you want to allow people the right to live where ever they wish under which ever administration they want? This is not a human rights violation you wish to label it that way so that you can use your numerical advantage to force me to live in a GC state run by GCs where I will be reduced to second class citizenship. Please dont cry your usual banter of human rights and democracy as its not the principles but who will administer them that is important but you have absolutely no idea on who should administer them as you know it will be the GCs.

[B25]

The 29% will also have GCs living in it, why dont you want to allow people the right to live where ever they wish under which ever administration they want?

OK, so why don't you let the TCs do the same?

This is not a human rights violation you wish to label it that way so that you can use your numerical advantage to force me to live in a GC state run by GCs where I will be reduced to second class citizenship.

So, following from the above you have just contrdicted yourself, it is ok for GCs to live in a TC adminstered state where you will ensure the GCs remain a minority but you won't live in a GC administered state with a GC majority. Hypocrite again, and again.

here you are again talking out of your arse.

This is a clear case of you just wanting special privilages at the expense of our rights. And you say you need the guarantees, pft!