Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

@ Bir

I hope you are not denying that worse, much worse, and in greater numbers (since these seem to matter to TCs) has happened to GCs who fled Napalming and constant threats as well as actions by Turkey.

Now apply this with a little foresight to the future and understand why we want ZERO influence from Turkey and no more than one-TC-one-vote rights to match our one-GC-one-vote by which normal civilised and ALL EU countries abide!

But of course you will have everything you wish for in the South Cypriot State. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Dearest O.

[boomerang]

@ Bir

I hope you are not denying that worse, much worse, and in greater numbers (since these seem to matter to TCs) has happened to GCs who fled Napalming and constant threats as well as actions by Turkey.

Now apply this with a little foresight to the future and understand why we want ZERO influence from Turkey and no more than one-TC-one-vote rights to match our one-GC-one-vote by which normal civilised and ALL EU countries abide!

But of course you will have everything you wish for in the South Cypriot State. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Dearest O.

and the happy thing out of this you could convert back since you are used to it...but growing that little skin back would be difficult...it has been alleged monkey shit might help you...

[BirKibrisli]

@ Bir

I hope you are not denying that worse, much worse, and in greater numbers (since these seem to matter to TCs) has happened to GCs who fled Napalming and constant threats as well as actions by Turkey.

Now apply this with a little foresight to the future and understand why we want ZERO influence from Turkey and no more than one-TC-one-vote rights to match our one-GC-one-vote by which normal civilised and ALL EU countries abide!

No I am not denying that the GCs has suffered much more and for longer than the TCs ever did..And I am happy to go back to 1571...Noone wants to be invaded and ruled by someone else..All empires were cruel and oppressive,some more than others...But you are making the same mistake as Piratis...Because your community suffered more and for longer,you totally dismiss the suffering of the TCs...This is where you are failing yourself and your community...As Piratis is doing...by not acknowledging the failings of your community,and calling everything fabricated lies,you are losing all credibility. in any conflict,let alone one as complicated as the Cyprus one,it is impossible to have only one side to blame for everything...this is what you are doing...your endless tirade of denials and insults aimed at the Turks and the TCs is turning you into a fanatic who is full of hatred and bitterness against your compatriots...This is not a good place to begin to find a solution which will let us live together in a free and democratic state...i know it is not your fault. You have been indoctrinated,brainwahsed into believeing what you believe,like most TCs have been brainwashed to believe that their side is whiter than white...But you have no excuses now...You need to open your mind and search for the truths for yourself..i say truths because there is more than one in every conflict... False History and propaganda have poisoned the minds of most Cypriots from both sides...This is why we are having such a difficult time finding a solution...We cant even agree on what actuaaly happened...What chance for a just solution?????

[BirKibrisli]

so what makes you think the gcs did it as conclusive expat?...


look for the eyewitbess account expat...there is atestimony in this forum, but I am not doing it for you...

There was ample hatred on both sides, Boomerang. The BBC news footage I've seen on their online archives bear that out.

boomerang,
Those who commit massacres of the innocent civilians,or women and children,make sure there are no eye witness accounts... To insist on such evidence amounts to total denial that such vile acts can ever be committed by your side...In this bloody conflict whole villages,bus loads of people,individuals etc have disappeared without trace...some of these poor sods have been turning up lately in mass graves and wells and what not,all over the island...The carnage happened on both sides. Do yourself a favour and inform yourself of the facts,instead of asking others to provide you eyewitness accounts you know do not exist in most cases,...

[YFred]

so what makes you think the gcs did it as conclusive expat?...


look for the eyewitbess account expat...there is atestimony in this forum, but I am not doing it for you...

There was ample hatred on both sides, Boomerang. The BBC news footage I've seen on their online archives bear that out.

boomerang,
Those who commit massacres of the innocent civilians,or women and children,make sure there are no eye witness accounts... To insist on such evidence amounts to total denial that such vile acts can ever be committed by your side...In this bloody conflict whole villages,bus loads of people,individuals etc have disappeared without trace...some of these poor sods have been turning up lately in mass graves and wells and what not,all over the island...The carnage happened on both sides. Do yourself a favour and inform yourself of the facts,instead of asking others to provide you eyewitness accounts you know do not exist in most cases,...

Isn't that a classic case of living in denial.

[boomerang]

so what makes you think the gcs did it as conclusive expat?...


look for the eyewitbess account expat...there is atestimony in this forum, but I am not doing it for you...

There was ample hatred on both sides, Boomerang. The BBC news footage I've seen on their online archives bear that out.

boomerang,
Those who commit massacres of the innocent civilians,or women and children,make sure there are no eye witness accounts... To insist on such evidence amounts to total denial that such vile acts can ever be committed by your side...In this bloody conflict whole villages,bus loads of people,individuals etc have disappeared without trace...some of these poor sods have been turning up lately in mass graves and wells and what not,all over the island...The carnage happened on both sides. Do yourself a favour and inform yourself of the facts,instead of asking others to provide you eyewitness accounts you know do not exist in most cases,...

Isn't that a classic case of living in denial.

unfortunately for you bir, the knucklehead is on your side dragging your whole argument to the ground...a court only functions with eyewitness testimonies and facts...yes lets bring out the witch hunts and the hangings huh?...

answer me this bir...why did Afrika also disputed the story of the pictures?...how come the testimony doesn't hold water?...why bir?...

Unlike you bir I want the truth were you want bullshit as evidence...now in your own opinion who is bullshiting here?...

[Oracle]

@ Bir

I hope you are not denying that worse, much worse, and in greater numbers (since these seem to matter to TCs) has happened to GCs who fled Napalming and constant threats as well as actions by Turkey.

Now apply this with a little foresight to the future and understand why we want ZERO influence from Turkey and no more than one-TC-one-vote rights to match our one-GC-one-vote by which normal civilised and ALL EU countries abide!

No I am not denying that the GCs has suffered much more and for longer than the TCs ever did..And I am happy to go back to 1571...Noone wants to be invaded and ruled by someone else..All empires were cruel and oppressive,some more than others...But you are making the same mistake as Piratis...Because your community suffered more and for longer,you totally dismiss the suffering of the TCs...This is where you are failing yourself and your community...As Piratis is doing...by not acknowledging the failings of your community,and calling everything fabricated lies,you are losing all credibility. in any conflict,let alone one as complicated as the Cyprus one,it is impossible to have only one side to blame for everything...this is what you are doing...your endless tirade of denials and insults aimed at the Turks and the TCs is turning you into a fanatic who is full of hatred and bitterness against your compatriots...This is not a good place to begin to find a solution which will let us live together in a free and democratic state...i know it is not your fault. You have been indoctrinated,brainwahsed into believeing what you believe,like most TCs have been brainwashed to believe that their side is whiter than white...But you have no excuses now...You need to open your mind and search for the truths for yourself..i say truths because there is more than one in every conflict... False History and propaganda have poisoned the minds of most Cypriots from both sides...This is why we are having such a difficult time finding a solution...We cant even agree on what actuaaly happened...What chance for a just solution?????

I won't be subjected to emotional blackmail to surrender democracy and human rights. You have blown your suffering out of all proportion to reality so that you can milk it. That's not to say a few hundred TCs did not die over the decade in conflicts as they tried to continue their excessive rights over us, forcing us to counter, but that's not enough to overrule what millions have died over to secure ... Democracy and Human Rights!

If we GCs had democracy and human rights equally with the TCs, right from the start, instead of being forced to accept a lower status to the TCs... then, the TCs would not have grown accustomed to excessive power over us.

It's time to stop this enslavement of the GCs. Give back the occupied territories and abide by law and order or go back to Turkey.

[Piratis]

B25, Bir is not the same as VP. Unfortunately he lost the ability to see objectively recently.

I excuse him because I believe his aim is to get any kind of "solution" that would stop TCs from being swallowed by Turkey. I also believe him when he says that he would personally accept a true democracy with human rights for all. So he is nothing like VP.

What he does not understand is that the price he is asking from us to pay in order to save his community is way too high. Human rights and democracy are extremely valuable things and we are not going to sacrifice what is most important to save TCs from their self-destruction.

He also accepts the excuses of people like VP and he thinks that we can have a bad "solution" right now, and that this bad "solution" can help to improve the climate between Cypriots (it will actually worsen it) and that after some time it will become possible to change to something better. Probably he missed what VP (the average TC) keeps saying: "If you didn't like it you shouldn't have signed it".

Human rights and democracy are extremely valuable,dear Piratis,but they shouldn't be an end in themselves...That is my whole point...It is too big a step for the TCs to jump from where we are today to a fully functioning democracy with human rights...You keep saying the 1960 agreements didnt work because they were imposed on the GCs...Why should a new agreement work if it is imposed on the TCs,democratic of otherwise..??? If we open a parathesis here,there are many countries who are supposedly democratic,like Turkey,Greece,Russia,Romania,Albania,Serbia,Croatia,Bosnia etc etc...Go and ask the minorities in those countries if they are happy with their lot...Any system,including democracy,is only as good as the people who run it...I am not trying to run down the virtues of democracy..Just trying to bring some reality into the situation...One of the two sides in the Cyprus conflict wants more than the implied protections of a democratic system...They cannot bring themselves to trust the other side to play the game by the rules...So what is the point of insisting on your uncompromising position if you know it wont be acceptable??? I would like to get a logical explanation on this one,Piratis,as i am truly puzzled...

You see Bir we have a fundamental difference in the way we view things here. For me a true democracy is extremely important and Human rights are in fact an end in themselves. (if you disagree with me then you have to explain me what other end the human rights serve).

We are all part of some minority in some occasion or another and very often we all find ourselves in disagreement and unhappy with the decisions of a democratically elected government. This is how it is in all democracies, not just the ones you mentioned.

The point of a democracy is not to have everybody in agreement. Such thing is impossible. The point is to take decisions with the largest possible consent, while at the same time respecting the human rights of all people.

As I said many times I am all for a solution that will make the TCs feel more secure. Proportional representation at all levels, veto on constitutional changes, demilitarization, international force etc. Such things will make the TCs more secure not only when compared to "democracies" like Turkey (they just banned the Kurdish party again), but even when compared with other good democracies.

But to put an argument of the kind: "Lets violate the human rights of GCs in order to remove the possibility that the human rights of TCs will be violated" is an argument that doesn't make sense at all. I hope you will agree with me!!

I insist on what is fundamental, such as human rights and democracy because without these fundamental elements there can not be a solution. If those elements are not acceptable by the TCs that means a solution is not acceptable by them. Am I supposed to accept something which is not a solution, but will create even more problems for us, just so the TCs will get what they want and have even more gains on our expense?

[Piratis]

No I am not denying that the GCs has suffered much more and for longer than the TCs ever did..And I am happy to go back to 1571...Noone wants to be invaded and ruled by someone else..All empires were cruel and oppressive,some more than others...But you are making the same mistake as Piratis...Because your community suffered more and for longer,you totally dismiss the suffering of the TCs...This is where you are failing yourself and your community...As Piratis is doing...by not acknowledging the failings of your community,and calling everything fabricated lies,you are losing all credibility.

Bir, I made more than 10.000 posts in this forum and you will not find even one of them where I claim that TCs never suffered or that all suffering of TCs is fabricated lies (although certain things are indeed fabricated). You are losing your credibility by putting words in my mouth.

What I say is that GCs suffered a lot more than TCs (both in terms of casualties but also in terms of time), and that the wars and conflicts during which the suffering occurred where initiated by Turks or TCs. This is what I say, and not that TCs never suffered!

I will say it again: I fully acknowledge that TCs suffered. I fully acknowledge that GCs have committed crimes against TCs as well. I hope you will not misquote me again!

I like the truth, the whole truth, and I am not like some others who choose only the parts of history that they like and they are trying to create some false impression in order to justify yet more crimes and human rights violations.

[Expatkiwi]

Bir, I made more than 10.000 posts in this forum and you will not find even one of them where I claim that TCs never suffered or that all suffering of TCs is fabricated lies (although certain things are indeed fabricated). You are losing your credibility by putting words in my mouth.

What I say is that GCs suffered a lot more than TCs (both in terms of casualties but also in terms of time), and that the wars and conflicts during which the suffering occurred where initiated by Turks or TCs. This is what I say, and not that TCs never suffered!

I will say it again: I fully acknowledge that TCs suffered. I fully acknowledge that GCs have committed crimes against TCs as well. I hope you will not misquote me again!

I like the truth, the whole truth, and I am not like some others who choose only the parts of history that they like and they are trying to create some false impression in order to justify yet more crimes and human rights violations.

Piratis, I am very pleasently surprised at what you said here. I had really misjudged you. Yes, both sides suffered and when people start acceting that, then there may indeed be hope for reconciliation.