Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

The fact of the matter Piratis is this: as you can see from every post by VP,and he is truly the representative of the average TC,most TCs are not prepared to put their future in the noble notions of democracy and human rights...They need real and tangible protection,at least to start with,to come to the democracy party...If you keep ignoring this,and reduce everything to a refusal to grant you your democratic and human rights,totally wiping out the events of 1955-74,we will not find a solution...Or rather the status quo will be the permanent solution...In which case all Cypriots will lose forever their most fundamental human right: to live in peace and harmony in their country of birth,their homeland..Because partition will set in concrete the bitterness and emnity between the two communities...Are you prepared to sacrifice this for the sake of sticking to your principles of democracy and human rights as you, and only you, define them???Democracy could easily turn into tyranny of the majority,and human rights might not be worth the paper they are written on in some places...This is the fear of the average TC...If you refuse to acknowledge it as legitimate ,given our past,then you have no right to expect the TCs to trust you...I hope you can see my point,coming from someone who personally believes that he is in no danger from any GC except perhaps the odd fanatical lunatic,who might believe that any good TC is a dead TC... Sad

[boomerang]

yes you have told us the tc mindset http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27749

gcs pay speacial attention to the tc mindset...

[Piratis]

Thanks for giving me the chance to post my reply again:

Welcome back Bir

The voice of the reason is the one which always supports universal principles such as human rights and democracy. If such principles were allowed in Cyprus then there wouldn't be any problems to begin with, neither any EOKA or TMT would exist. The Cypriot people would be able to peacefully and democratically decide about their own island. The day that the Cyprus Problem will be solved will be the day that those universal principles are allowed to Cyprus.

Specific foreigners didn't want to allow these universal principles to prevail in Cyprus because they wanted to continue having control over Cyprus instead of allowing this control to the Cypriot people. It is a fact that those foreigners did use some extremist groups within Cypriots in order to destabilize Cyprus and created problems (TMT - EOKA B). It is also a fact that those foreigners continue to spend a lot of money today in their effort to have an outcome that would continue to serve their interests instead of the interests of the Cypriot people.

Sorry Bir, but it is naive to say that there are no traitors. You can find such traitors in our past and you can find them in our present as well. The way those foreigners channel their funds change, the recipients change, but what is always constant is the willingness by some minorities within the Cypriot society to accept that money and promote the interests of those foreigners instead of the interests of the Cypriot people.

Human rights (which includes the right for property) and democracy are the bare minimum of what a result should have in order to be classified as a solution. It is deplorable of how easily some people in here brush away these most basic human rights. If they are not traitors then the only other thing they can be is stupid.

Thanks for the welcome,Piratis..It is good to be back..

Nice to have you back Bir. We might disagree on some things but I know that we share the same underlying principles.

The voice of reason I am talking about is he one which whispers "when there are historical emnity,conflict,bitterness and mistrust between people,it is essential to address those isues first,before you can find a compromise solution to your problem"!!!

Enmity, conflict etc were not things that were created out of thin air Bir. Those things were created due to a cause. A solution is the one which addresses the cause of the problem. If the source of the problem is not removed then not only the problems we currently have can not be solved but new ones will probably be created.

Full democracy and human rights are admirable notions,but what is the use of pushing them if there is little chance of success,at this stage of our developping cooperation and maturity???

The use is that they are the bare minimum requirements for a permanent solution. What is the point of changing one problematic status to another, possibly even worst, status?

If a solution is not feasible today does this means that we should create more problems instead?

Given our sorry past,there is no way we will go from where we are to a full political democracy in our lifetime..So what is the next best thing? What is realistically achievable???Those are the questions people like Bananiot keep raising. They do not deserve to be branded traitors for stating the obvious...There is a big difference between a traitor and a true patriot,one who would tell you your wrongs without fear or favour,in order to advance the just cause of his people...It is easy to close your eyes and ears to the realities,historical goings on,and parrot your love for your country...Much more difficult to criticise your people in order to warn them of further calamity...People who choose the second part should not be demonised.They should be respected,admired and appreciated...

I don't know what is the next best thing after human rights Bir. Animal rights maybe? For me Human rights are the bare minimum and every human being on the plant has right for them. Nobody has the right to tell us that we can not even have our human rights and therefore we have to choose some "next best thing".

I also want to let you know that democracy is something we already have. Turkey illegally occupies 1/3rd of our land, violates our human rights, but democracy is something she didn't manage to take from us.

Also, while Turkey can illegally occupy 1/3rd of our country, our rights over the occupied territory are fully recognized. This is why we can resort to the ECHR, ECJ etc and win those cases.

With what you call "the next best thing", not only we would give up the democracy we have, but we would also give up our Human rights.

Nobody reasonable would consider such thing as a step in the right direction. It is a step backward, that not only removes from us our democratic rights and legalizes the human rights violations against us, not only it officially divides Cyprus into "Greek" and "Turkish", but also creates a fertile ground for even more enmity, conflicts and problems. That is not the kind of environment I want to raise my children.

As a community we made a lot of compromises Bir. We accepted that Cyprus will not be united with Greece, although we had every right for this. We can accept for the TCs to have more rights than any other equivalently sized ethnic group in any other country (their language as an official language, guaranteed proportional representation at all levels, veto power for the change of constitution, internal autonomy over areas where they are historically the majority etc.) But asking from us to even give up our human and democratic rights is going way too far, so far that the result of such arrangement can not possibly be called a "solution".

The fact of the matter Piratis is this: as you can see from every post by VP,and he is truly the representative of the average TC,most TCs are not prepared to put their future in the noble notions of democracy and human rights...They need real and tangible protection,at least to start with,to come to the democracy party...

If you keep ignoring this,and reduce everything to a refusal to grant you your democratic and human rights,totally wiping out the events of 1955-74,we will not find a solution...Or rather the status quo will be the permanent solution...In which case all Cypriots will lose forever their most fundamental human right: to live in peace and harmony in their country of birth,their homeland..Because partition will set in concrete the bitterness and emnity between the two communities...Are you prepared to sacrifice this for the sake of sticking to your principles of democracy and human rights as you, and only you, define them???Democracy could easily turn into tyranny of the majority,and human rights might not be worth the paper they are written on in some places...This is the fear of the average TC...If you refuse to acknowledge it as legitimate ,given our past,then you have no right to expect the TCs to trust you...I hope you can see my point,coming from someone who personally believes that he is in no danger from any GC except perhaps the odd fanatical lunatic,who might believe that any good TC is a dead TC...

We need protection more than TCs do, and still we do not demand that our protection should come at the expense of the human rights of TCs. Turkey keeps using the TCs on the island as an excuse to serve her own interests on the expense of our rights. We could also say that the ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against the TCs were required for our protection, and claim that the "solution" would require the removal of the TCs from Cyprus, similar to the way that the German minority was removed from Czechoslovakia after WWII in order to remove from Germany the excuse of invading that country again with the excuse of "protecting" their minority. But we do not have such kind of demands because we do not believe that ethnic cleansing and human rights violations can be part of anything which is called a "solution".

VP and his kind are trying to excuse their usual aim for partition, an aim which was created before the conflict between the two communities. Their demands have nothing to do with their "protection" and everything to do with legalizing partition and having gains on our expense. This fact can be seen most easily in the Turkish demands for the land distribution. The 18% of TCs demanding close to 30% of land and 50% of the coast line of Cyprus. How can such demands have anything to do with their "protection"? Only somebody who is very naive would believe such lame excuses.

I didn't define neither Human Rights nor Democracy. The Human Rights, which are universal for all humans, are defined by the UN:
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

And a good definition of democracy can be found in the website of the US government (which I didn't write either):

All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic: No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities--whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

http://usinfo.org/mirror/usinfo.state.g ... hatdm2.htm

So democracy is not just majority rule. Majority rule is one of the required elements of all democracies, but it is not the only one. Democracy also comes with "individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities".

And of course what I support is a true democracy, not regimes like those in Turkey. Your claim that democracy can turn into tyranny and therefore we should not allow democracy, is equivalent to killing an innocent person, depriving him of his right for life, with the excuse that he could turn into a mass murderer. You can't deprive the basic rights of people with such hypothetical assumptions Bir!!

Furthermore I have no problem with adopting additional measures that would be truly aimed to guarantee that the TCs will get the 100% of their human rights and as a community they will get their fair proportional share at all levels. Such measures can be things like Turkish as an official language of Cyprus, Islam to be treated by the government at the same level as Christianity, TCs to be guaranteed proportional representation at all levels, TCs to have veto power over changes in the constitution etc. And if you think that the GCs in an EU Cyprus are so evil that will try to brake all those fair and just things by force, then I wouldn't mind an international force in Cyprus that will guarantee that Cyprus remains demilitarized and that all aspects of our constitution are observed.

The 18% of TCs taking 30% of land and 50% of coastline, or violating the basic human rights of GCs by depriving us from our property rights and discriminating against us by reducing the effect of our votes, are not things that "protect" the TCs, but unfair gains of TCs on our expense, something that can only result in more hate and conflicts.

Furthermore what TCs demand now is equivalent of legitimizing partition and officially splitting Cyprus into "Greek" and "Turkish" parts. How is such de jure partition any better than the de facto partition we have today?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Furthermore I have no problem with adopting additional measures that would be truly aimed to guarantee that the TCs will get the 100% of their human rights and as a community they will get their fair proportional share at all levels. Such measures can be things like Turkish as an official language of Cyprus, Islam to be treated by the government at the same level as Christianity, TCs to be guaranteed proportional representation at all levels, TCs to have veto power over changes in the constitution etc. And if you think that the GCs in an EU Cyprus are so evil that will try to brake all those fair and just things by force, then I wouldn't mind an international force in Cyprus that will guarantee that Cyprus remains demilitarized and that all aspects of our constitution are observed.

This is the most important part of your text book quote and thats why are leader is at the negotiating table trying to secure the structures that wiill in fact bring about what you claim.

Birs post reflects exactly the feelnings of an average TC, if you refuse to see that and continue to quote text book democracy and human rights then no one will believe you, we need concrete steps if you take 1 we will take even more but you not have the courage nor the conviction to unite under a BBF and your ultimate goal you personify on this forum is a unified GC state where the majority namely the GCs will rule and make the life of TCs living hell until they leave, convince us otherwise or else we will continue to question your real motives.

[Piratis]

I don't need to convince you of anything since your aims are obvious and can be seen in your signature. If some people are naive and believe the lame excuses you give to support your partition aim (which you had since the 50s) that is not my fault.

Democracy and human rights might mean nothing for you since it is our human and democratic rights which are violated. If the reverse was true, and it was asked from you to be ehtnically cleansed from Cyprus, to have your human rights violated, or to have the value of your votes diminished, then I am sure you wouldn't be so quick to brush away democracy and human rights.

[Viewpoint]

I don't need to convince you of anything since your aims are obvious and can be seen in your signature. If some people are naive and believe the lame excuses you give to support your partition aim (which you had since the 50s) that is not my fault.

Democracy and human rights might mean nothing for you since it is our human and democratic rights which are violated. If the reverse was true, and it was asked from you to be ehtnically cleansed from Cyprus, to have your human rights violated, or to have the value of your votes diminished, then I am sure you wouldn't be so quick to brush away democracy and human rights.

This is where you fall flat on your face and lose all credibility on the one hand you say you are willing to provide certain provisions and even a force to ensure both sides adhere to human rights and democracy and on the other hand you refuse to confirm those exact same strcutures which will guarantee what you yourself have just commited to. Democracy and human rights are just text book terms its how they are administered that are the problemi left in the hand of people we do not trust they are easily manipulated to the detrement of any part of society they are aimed at and no one can do anything about it but run through the corridors of the legal system for the next 10 years.

My recommendation to you as you alergic to the term convince is show and detail issues and systems that would not allow GCs to brush aside the role of TCs in a united system where they would not try yet again to change the constitution or not adhere to supreme court judgements, then over time people will see that your sole aim is not to ake control of the whole island and reduce the TCs into jut another minority in a GC state, try it and see the positive response from TCs.

[Piratis]

I don't need to convince you of anything since your aims are obvious and can be seen in your signature. If some people are naive and believe the lame excuses you give to support your partition aim (which you had since the 50s) that is not my fault.

Democracy and human rights might mean nothing for you since it is our human and democratic rights which are violated. If the reverse was true, and it was asked from you to be ehtnically cleansed from Cyprus, to have your human rights violated, or to have the value of your votes diminished, then I am sure you wouldn't be so quick to brush away democracy and human rights.

This is where you fall flat on your face and lose all credibility on the one hand you say you are willing to provide certain provisions and even a force to ensure both sides adhere to human rights and democracy and on the other hand you refuse to confirm those exact same strcutures which will guarantee what you yourself have just commited to. Democracy and human rights are just text book terms its how they are administered that are the problemi left in the hand of people we do not trust they are easily manipulated to the detrement of any part of society they are aimed at and no one can do anything about it but run through the corridors of the legal system for the next 10 years.

My recommendation to you as you alergic to the term convince is show and detail issues and systems that would not allow GCs to brush aside the role of TCs in a united system where they would not try yet again to change the constitution or not adhere to supreme court judgements, then over time people will see that your sole aim is not to ake control of the whole island and reduce the TCs into jut another minority in a GC state, try it and see the positive response from TCs.

Where did I say that I do not accept provisions that would "ensure both sides adhere to human rights and democracy". Quite the contrary. I gave examples of such provisions in my earlier post.

I also gave examples of things that have nothing to do with ensuring that "both sides adhere to human rights and democracy".

For example you demanding 30% of land and 50% of coastline are 2 obvious things that have nothing to do with ensuring "that both sides adhere to human rights and democracy".

You even demand things that are direct human right violations. This is a human right:

Article 17.
* (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
* (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

So how can you demand human rights violations in order to "ensure both sides adhere to human rights and democracy"? I hope you are smart enough to understand the obvious oxymoron.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Where did I say that I do not accept provisions that would "ensure both sides adhere to human rights and democracy". Quite the contrary. I gave examples of such provisions in my earlier post.

Your own quote

I don't need to convince you of anything

I also gave examples of things that have nothing to do with ensuring that "both sides adhere to human rights and democracy".

Kindly repost your provisions for all to see.

For example you demanding 30% of land and 50% of coastline are 2 obvious things that have nothing to do with ensuring "that both sides adhere to human rights and democracy".

29% to be precise, do you understand what BBF means? if mine is your and yours is mine under one country then whats the problem? GCs and TCs will be able to live where ever they wish.

You even demand things that are direct human right violations. This is a human right:

Article 17.
* (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
* (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

You know I support the right of refugees to theirproperties where physically possible and the choice for compensation or exchnage where not, how does this take away your rights?

So how can you demand human rights violations in order to "ensure both sides adhere to human rights and democracy"? I hope you are smart enough to understand the obvious oxymoron.

Can you please clarify where I have violated your rights in the above statement when we have to take into account the realities before us.