Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

There is something that I've never understood about this Forum which this topic highlights.

With the exception of a few loopy racist ultra-nationalists, most posters on these Cyprus Problem threads say that they're interested in some kind of negotiated settlement. In other words most posters don't think that the answer is to be found in the barrel of any gun. That being the case, the problem is one, mainly, of setting the parameters of negotiation including defining who the legitimate and effective parties to negotiation should be.

The puzzle I have about the forum is that most posters simply restate over and over and over again what the problem is (in their view) and not what possible solutions might be offered. Unless we air 'possibilities' and not rule them out from the outset, we won't get anywhere. Not getting anywhere is exactly what the loopy racist ultra-nationalists of both sides are quite happy with, but surely not what those wishing for negotiation should settle for.

The axiom I follow is that negotiations are, by definition, always with current or erstwhile enemies or those with very different interests. You don't need to negotiate with friends or those whose interests correspond. And therefore negotiation to be able to produce possibly viable results entails discussion of giving up some of one's own interests.

All very obvious I suppose,but if CF is in any way a reflection of wider Cypriot public ways of addressing the Cyprus problem then we're screwed indefinitely. I know it is a cliched phrase but 'if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.'

PS Turkey should and could withdraw troops now. Even saying that there is to be a phased withdrawal over, say, three years would be a major filip.

For the first time you are missing the point here if I may offer my opinion. The solution to any problem is achieved by first of all accepting the that the problem exists and to what extend one is responsible for the problem. Once that is realised then the solution of the problem is very easily achieved. I see no sign of most the GCs on this forum accepting any responsibility for what they have done to the TCs between 1963 and 74. Until such time as realisation of such a fact you cannot even begin to discuss any solutions to the problem on this forum. The reason the the two muhtars are able to discuss and negotiate is that they have arrived at such an understanding.
The question is are most of our GC cousins on this forum able to face such realities. I suspect, not.

[Kikapu]

There is something that I've never understood about this Forum which this topic highlights.

With the exception of a few loopy racist ultra-nationalists, most posters on these Cyprus Problem threads say that they're interested in some kind of negotiated settlement. In other words most posters don't think that the answer is to be found in the barrel of any gun. That being the case, the problem is one, mainly, of setting the parameters of negotiation including defining who the legitimate and effective parties to negotiation should be.

The puzzle I have about the forum is that most posters simply restate over and over and over again what the problem is (in their view) and not what possible solutions might be offered. Unless we air 'possibilities' and not rule them out from the outset, we won't get anywhere. Not getting anywhere is exactly what the loopy racist ultra-nationalists of both sides are quite happy with, but surely not what those wishing for negotiation should settle for.

The axiom I follow is that negotiations are, by definition, always with current or erstwhile enemies or those with very different interests. You don't need to negotiate with friends or those whose interests correspond. And therefore negotiation to be able to produce possibly viable results entails discussion of giving up some of one's own interests.

All very obvious I suppose,but if CF is in any way a reflection of wider Cypriot public ways of addressing the Cyprus problem then we're screwed indefinitely. I know it is a cliched phrase but 'if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.'

PS Turkey should and could withdraw troops now. Even saying that there is to be a phased withdrawal over, say, three years would be a major filip.

What you say is true, CopperLine, but it is very hard to take the north's position on these negotiations seriously when every Tom, Dick and Harry has their own "Red Lines" that are not to be crossed to reach a settlement. With such conditions, how can one have serious debate here on the CF about a settlement when negotiations for a settlement by nature needs compromises which will need to be made while defending Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and the EU Principles.! There cannot be such thing as a "Red Lines" and everything has to be on the table to be able to negotiate a viable solution. I have stated this before, that once everyone accepts True Democracy, Human Rights, International Laws and the EU Principles, the rest are just details to reach a settlement. It seems like from some of my fellow TCs on the forum, they do not accept the principles listed above, so then what.?

[Malapapa]

Unfortunately, some of the issues don't always have a middle ground. All TR troops out v. all stay - middle ground is some stay? Do you find that acceptable?

No, middle ground would be all TR troops somewhere in the sea, half way between Cyprus and Turkey. I could live with that.

[vaughanwilliams]

There is something that I've never understood about this Forum which this topic highlights.

With the exception of a few loopy racist ultra-nationalists, most posters on these Cyprus Problem threads say that they're interested in some kind of negotiated settlement. In other words most posters don't think that the answer is to be found in the barrel of any gun. That being the case, the problem is one, mainly, of setting the parameters of negotiation including defining who the legitimate and effective parties to negotiation should be.

The puzzle I have about the forum is that most posters simply restate over and over and over again what the problem is (in their view) and not what possible solutions might be offered. Unless we air 'possibilities' and not rule them out from the outset, we won't get anywhere. Not getting anywhere is exactly what the loopy racist ultra-nationalists of both sides are quite happy with, but surely not what those wishing for negotiation should settle for.

The axiom I follow is that negotiations are, by definition, always with current or erstwhile enemies or those with very different interests. You don't need to negotiate with friends or those whose interests correspond. And therefore negotiation to be able to produce possibly viable results entails discussion of giving up some of one's own interests.

All very obvious I suppose,but if CF is in any way a reflection of wider Cypriot public ways of addressing the Cyprus problem then we're screwed indefinitely. I know it is a cliched phrase but 'if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.'

PS Turkey should and could withdraw troops now. Even saying that there is to be a phased withdrawal over, say, three years would be a major filip.

At last, the voice of reason.
Compromise is what it is all about and I believe that simultaneous gestures should and could be made. The opening of TR ports and airports to RoC ships/aircraft coincidental with TRNC ports and airports to direct trade, could be a start. If it doesn't work out - close them again. Troops are certainly a big issue - what would you propose the RoC might "give" in return?

[vaughanwilliams]

There is something that I've never understood about this Forum which this topic highlights.

With the exception of a few loopy racist ultra-nationalists, most posters on these Cyprus Problem threads say that they're interested in some kind of negotiated settlement. In other words most posters don't think that the answer is to be found in the barrel of any gun. That being the case, the problem is one, mainly, of setting the parameters of negotiation including defining who the legitimate and effective parties to negotiation should be.

The puzzle I have about the forum is that most posters simply restate over and over and over again what the problem is (in their view) and not what possible solutions might be offered. Unless we air 'possibilities' and not rule them out from the outset, we won't get anywhere. Not getting anywhere is exactly what the loopy racist ultra-nationalists of both sides are quite happy with, but surely not what those wishing for negotiation should settle for.

The axiom I follow is that negotiations are, by definition, always with current or erstwhile enemies or those with very different interests. You don't need to negotiate with friends or those whose interests correspond. And therefore negotiation to be able to produce possibly viable results entails discussion of giving up some of one's own interests.

All very obvious I suppose,but if CF is in any way a reflection of wider Cypriot public ways of addressing the Cyprus problem then we're screwed indefinitely. I know it is a cliched phrase but 'if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.'

PS Turkey should and could withdraw troops now. Even saying that there is to be a phased withdrawal over, say, three years would be a major filip.

For the first time you are missing the point here if I may offer my opinion. The solution to any problem is achieved by first of all accepting the that the problem exists and to what extend one is responsible for the problem. Once that is realised then the solution of the problem is very easily achieved. I see no sign of most the GCs on this forum accepting any responsibility for what they have done to the TCs between 1963 and 74. Until such time as realisation of such a fact you cannot even begin to discuss any solutions to the problem on this forum. The reason the the two muhtars are able to discuss and negotiate is that they have arrived at such an understanding.
The question is are most of our GC cousins on this forum able to face such realities. I suspect, not.

"The solution to any problem is achieved by first of all accepting the that the problem exists and to what extend (sic) one is responsible for the problem."
Maybe what is needed is what South Africa had - a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. All the skeletons need to come out of the cupboard and lessons need to be learned.
"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them" - George Santayana

[YFred]

There is something that I've never understood about this Forum which this topic highlights.

With the exception of a few loopy racist ultra-nationalists, most posters on these Cyprus Problem threads say that they're interested in some kind of negotiated settlement. In other words most posters don't think that the answer is to be found in the barrel of any gun. That being the case, the problem is one, mainly, of setting the parameters of negotiation including defining who the legitimate and effective parties to negotiation should be.

The puzzle I have about the forum is that most posters simply restate over and over and over again what the problem is (in their view) and not what possible solutions might be offered. Unless we air 'possibilities' and not rule them out from the outset, we won't get anywhere. Not getting anywhere is exactly what the loopy racist ultra-nationalists of both sides are quite happy with, but surely not what those wishing for negotiation should settle for.

The axiom I follow is that negotiations are, by definition, always with current or erstwhile enemies or those with very different interests. You don't need to negotiate with friends or those whose interests correspond. And therefore negotiation to be able to produce possibly viable results entails discussion of giving up some of one's own interests.

All very obvious I suppose,but if CF is in any way a reflection of wider Cypriot public ways of addressing the Cyprus problem then we're screwed indefinitely. I know it is a cliched phrase but 'if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.'

PS Turkey should and could withdraw troops now. Even saying that there is to be a phased withdrawal over, say, three years would be a major filip.

For the first time you are missing the point here if I may offer my opinion. The solution to any problem is achieved by first of all accepting the that the problem exists and to what extend one is responsible for the problem. Once that is realised then the solution of the problem is very easily achieved. I see no sign of most the GCs on this forum accepting any responsibility for what they have done to the TCs between 1963 and 74. Until such time as realisation of such a fact you cannot even begin to discuss any solutions to the problem on this forum. The reason the the two muhtars are able to discuss and negotiate is that they have arrived at such an understanding.
The question is are most of our GC cousins on this forum able to face such realities. I suspect, not.

"The solution to any problem is achieved by first of all accepting the that the problem exists and to what extend (sic) one is responsible for the problem."
Maybe what is needed is what South Africa had - a Truth and Reconciliation Commission. All the skeletons need to come out of the cupboard and lessons need to be learned.
"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of their predecessors are destined to repeat them" - George Santayana

I agree with you and have said this many times on the forum. However there is a slight problem with that. The roc government has been keeping the truth from the GCs for so long that they dare not let the truth of what they did to TCs from 63 to 74 come out. Especially the high ranking pezzevengis dead or alive, missing or still in the grave.

[Viewpoint]

Do you think they would accept it even people did admit to it? they are so arrogant and bloody minded that they would not see let alone accept the truth.

[Hermes]

I agree with you and have said this many times on the forum. However there is a slight problem with that. The roc government has been keeping the truth from the GCs for so long that they dare not let the truth of what they did to TCs from 63 to 74 come out. Especially the high ranking pezzevengis dead or alive, missing or still in the grave.

And the T/Cs did nothing from 1963-74. Ankara did nothing. Greece did nothing. The British did nothing. The Americans did nothing. It was all the work of the mighty Greek Cypriots. It is the Greek Cypriots who are entirely responsible for the current situation. It is the Greek Cypriots who expelled themselves from their ancestral homes. And it is the Greek Cypriots who currently occupy northern Cyprus.

Really, YFred? Perhaps you should spend less time posting simplistic nonsense on this forum and more time reading a few history books. Preferably not written in Turkish! I can recommend some if you like...

[Viewpoint]

I agree with you and have said this many times on the forum. However there is a slight problem with that. The roc government has been keeping the truth from the GCs for so long that they dare not let the truth of what they did to TCs from 63 to 74 come out. Especially the high ranking pezzevengis dead or alive, missing or still in the grave.

And the T/Cs did nothing from 1963-74? Ankara did nothing. Greece did nothing. The British did nothing. The Americans did nothing. It was all the work of the mighty Greek Cypriots. And it is the Greek Cypriots who are responsible for the current situation? It is the Greek Cypriots who expelled themselves from their ancestral homes. And it is the Greek Cypriots who currently occupy northern Cyprus.

Really, YFred? Perhaps you should spend less time posting simplistic nonsense on this forum and more time reading a few history books. Preferably not written in Turkish! I can recommend some if you like...

The GCs messed up bigtime when they had the chance to unite all Cypriots, are TCs angels of course not but nowhere as cunning and underhand as GCs they are responsible for todays division.

[Hermes]

The GCs messed up bigtime when they had the chance to unite all Cypriots, are TCs angels of course not but nowhere as cunning and underhand as GCs they are responsible for todays division.

The Turks messed up big time when they invaded and occupied Cyprus. That is why they are currently negotiating the terms of their withdrawal.