Cyprus-Forum.com

[B25]

Bravo vre Kikapu, so gracefully and simply put.

But I fear you are wasting your talent on certain people, Bir being one of them. I tries to come across as a moderate, but when you read his posts, they still have the undersones echoed by VP,Yfred, Insan and others.

I thought Bir was different, but reading his current exchanges with piratis, shows him for what he really is.

Anyway, keep up the good work and you never know one day Cyprus may well just have that True Democracy and we can all call it the Kikapu Plan (KP).

Cheers

When you next come over to Cyprus I would like to meet you and shake you hand.

[Kikapu]

Your plan was rejected becuase it was camaflouged by you to put TCs and the North state at risk. With proportional representation in the lower house giving GCs control our only auto control was the upper house where the ratio was 5 from south state and 5 from north state but where it was flawed was allowing the advantage of the GC using their numerical advantage to swing just 1 seat in the north state in their favor to take control of power all over the island, therefore having sussed you treacherous plan to place us at risk I rejected your plan.

There has to be inbuilt system that will not allow such a sitatuation putting either state at risk, therefore leaving them out of the equation.

There was nothing at all camouflaged. What was very clear why you rejected such a plan was because you did not want to give 50% of the north to become part of the south state as well as not being able to close the government down to cause a constitutional crisis to create an atmosphere for partition. I had also told you many times, that what ever decision is made by the lower and upper house effects all citizens equally and that it is within each state where 99% laws are made by the majority is what applies to that state and its citizens, as long as they did not violate the Federal Constitution which may effect the rights of any citizen in that state.

Here is part of a post I wrote on "Kikapu's "BBF" power sharing Plan" that you did not respond to which with a slight derogation from the EU and an agreement by the GCs, even your above concerns on the 5 seats for the upper house could be protected by keeping the north to remain majority TCs..

Let me also add, that I have also stated in this thread, that if we are going to ask for derogations from the EU to help the TCs maintain power in the upper house through undemocratic means such as allocating those 5 seats to them rather then being voted on, is to put a limit on how many non TC citizens can move into the "TC state", other than the original 30,000 GC refugees whose land will remain in the north based on the north being at 18-20%. Basically what that would mean is, if most of the TCs were to move into the north state (20%), their numbers will be around 130,000-150,000, which would include the 50,000 settlers given Cypriot citizenships. With the potential of more TCs coming from abroad in the first 5 years to settle in the north under my 5 year plan “stocking up” phase, the TCs numbers can go up to 180,000+ versus the original 30,000 GC refugees rights to live in the north with all their democratic and constitutional rights protected. You can then have a system set up after the 1st 5 years where the number of GCs can only increase in the north at the same numbers as the increases occurring in the TCs numbers. This way, the TCs will always remain the majority in the north and I doubt very much we will ever violate anyone’s Human Rights of any non TCs citizens not being allowed to move to the north if they wanted to in practice. At worse case scenario, they will be put on a waiting list to move to the north if in fact the quotas for that particular year has been reached. This “Human Rights” violation on Cypriot citizens will ONLY be in theoretically and not in actuality, because I do not expect “3,600” GCs moving to the north annually.

For example, if the population of 180,000 TCs were to grow by 2% annually in the north state, that would mean an additional 3,600 more TCs in the north. This would mean an additional 3,600 non TC Cypriot citizens can settle into the north also from the south or from abroad. Just by using simple calculations or even compounded calculations, the TCs will always maintain their original majority numbers of 150,000+ in the north as the case was from day one, and most likely, they will be more than that if the non TCs citizens do not move to the north at maximum quotas for each year. The ratio difference between the TCs and all other Cypriots living in the north will narrow eventually however, if and when “new Cypriot” citizens move to the north at the same numbers increase by the TCs at 3,600. The TCs will set the pace at all times. If agreed by all parties, and the GCs agree to have their population ONLY grow at 2% also in the north state, then the TCs number will grow at much faster pace than the GCs ever will. It all depends how much the GCs will get their own land back from the north to be so accommodating to the TCs. They will for sure not agree to such measures if most of their land is kept to become part of the north state, in which case, they will use all means to increase their numbers in the north eventually. Now, if the majority of the TCs who chooses to move to the south or abroad eventually to seek better paying jobs as Nikitas predicts or move to their own land pre 1974, then their numbers in the north will be reduced drastically over time and the 30,000+ GC refugees may in time outpace the TCs with natural increases through births. This is something the TCs will have to think as to what is more important to them, better paying jobs in the south or who is sitting in the upper house’s 5 seats. My guess is, people will move where they can better their lives if they can and not be too bothered about who is occupying those 5 seats, because every citizen will still have their democratic, Human Rights and individual rights protected by the Federal constitution as well as the state constitution. It will not matter who is occupying those seats, because in True Democracy, those political seats are not guaranteed to any ethnic groups, but only the democratic process can be guaranteed to allow everyone the right to vote and run for office.

In any case, we are getting ahead of ourselves in regarding the ethnic lines, because within 20 years or so, we will be all voting under a political ideology and not along ethnic divisions, which will further show, that it will not make any difference who will occupy those seats, a GC or a TC, because what would matter the most, is what will be their political ideology is and not their ethnicity, as the case is in the USA. I had asked VP several times in the past to tell us his biggest concerns as to how the TC would be effected negatively if any of the upper house's 5 seats were to be won by a non TC citizen in the north state, VP could only come up with the Federal government stopping the Gambling and Whorehouses or stopping trade with Turkeys. All of the above concerns VP gave us tells me that the 5 seats are not worth as much as VP makes them out to be, because 99% of all the laws that will effect the individual states and it's citizens, are laws passed within those states and not by the Federal government. Any laws passed by the Federal government will effect all citizens, regardless where they may live and not adversely effect one ethnic group over another.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... &start=260

Please answerthe following question honestly if you can and without deviating from the point, can the GC take the 1 seat necessary to gain total power in the upper house whether the north state is 18% or 29%...yes or no will do.

Not under the points I made above in my quote for sure, even though there was very little chance they could have taken a seat away even without that provisions I gave above IF the north were to give back 50% of the land back to the GCs to become part of the south state taking with it most of the GC refugees with it. At 29% north state with the potential 100,000 GCs and 150,000 TCs, then you are starting to push your luck a lot if the above provisions are not in place and I can’t imagine the GCs would give you that derogations if you want to keep their land, so don't take the risk and return the GC land and the refugees to become part of the south state. The other way of course is, that a GC can take a seat from the upper house by a GC living in the north state by if enough TCs and GCs vote for a GC candidate over a TC candidate. If that were to happen, most definitely. So what are you going to do, violate the TCs democratic rights to prevent them from voting for a nice GC candidate, say like Bananiot you all speak so nicely about. How will you stop the TCs from voting for a GC if he/she is well liked as you all claim to like Bananiot where you would not mind if all GCs were like him. So the answer is yes, that a GC can take that seat if the TCs help the GCs in voting for one.

So lets assume a GC has been voted in one of the 5 seats allocated for the north state, so what. Is the world going to cave in.? I have asked you several times what the worse could happen to the TCs if that were to happen, and you biggest concern was perhaps the GCs will use their power in the Federal level to shut down the Whorehouses and the Casinos in the north.!

No VP, even if the worse case scenario were to happen as you want to believe, your Whorehouses and the Casinos will be safe, because it will be a state matter and not a Federal matter as long as the constitution allows it, so put it in the constitution that states are allowed to make such decisions. Don't forget, 99% of the laws that will govern each state are made by the states themselves. All you need to worry about is how to keep the north a majority TC, that's all. All decisions made at the Federal level will effect all Cypriots equally.

Now that I have answered your question, tell me what you think of the provisions I have wrote in my quote above. Does this not take care off all your concerns. An honest answer please without deviating from my question will be appreciated.

[Bananiot]

If anyone knows a dispute that was settled primarily on the merits of democracy and human rights (no matter how nebulous these are) please share it with us. Morals and sentiments have little bearing on how this world is shaped. Surely it does not take a super intelligent being to understand this.

I have said this many times before and I will not get tired saying it again and again. Another push for the desirable will destroy us all, this time round. Writing about who started things first and who followed is quite useless at this stage. Our efforts should focus on finding a solution within the framework of what is considered feasible by the sane people in this country (Greek and Turkish Cypriots), the UN and the EU and perhaps other institutions with political clout and by the countries that matter which of course have a leading role, in our case, in these institutions.

[Get Real!]

If anyone knows a dispute that was settled primarily on the merits of democracy and human rights (no matter how nebulous these are) please share it with us. Morals and sentiments have little bearing on how this world is shaped. Surely it does not take a super intelligent being to understand this.

So you’ve basically given up hope on justice and decided to play along with injustice?

I have said this many times before and I will not get tired saying it again and again. Another push for the desirable will destroy us all, this time round. Writing about who started things first and who followed is quite useless at this stage.

In fact you’ve even gone one step further by embarking on an injustice sanitizing campaign!

Our efforts should focus on finding a solution within the framework of what is considered feasible by the sane people in this country (Greek and Turkish Cypriots), the UN and the EU and perhaps other institutions with political clout and by the countries that matter which of course have a leading role, in our case, in these institutions.

Your ability to adopt and blend in to the corrupt and cruel world is remarkable!

[Kikapu]

Bravo vre Kikapu, so gracefully and simply put.

But I fear you are wasting your talent on certain people, Bir being one of them. I tries to come across as a moderate, but when you read his posts, they still have the undersones echoed by VP,Yfred, Insan and others.

I thought Bir was different, but reading his current exchanges with piratis, shows him for what he really is.

Anyway, keep up the good work and you never know one day Cyprus may well just have that True Democracy and we can all call it the Kikapu Plan (KP).

Cheers

When you next come over to Cyprus I would like to meet you and shake you hand.

I wouldn't equate Bir with any one else here on the forum if I were you B25, because Bir has over the years has shown great courage to support equality between the GCs and TCs in Cyprus living in harmony. Bir does not support partition but his fear is that, that's what will happen and the extinction of the TCs unless we have a Unified Cyprus now under any plan. He may be right in his views, but the point I was trying to relay to Bir is, by having a faulty settlement based on violations of Democracy and Human Rights as it was written in the Annan Plan which is what Turkey and all the Fascist NeoPartitionist want, is a sure way to have partition and the extinction of the TCs as we know it, so it will be no different than throwing petrol on the "partition flame" to make it worse by having another constitution that was written as faulty as the last one back in 1960. Bir is a True Cypriot who sees every other Cypriot as his brothers and sisters and he should not be condemned or judged of views based on what a solution should look like in the short term. His call for a faulty settlement plan may be good for the short term to give the TCs a chance to break out of their present predicament, but for the long term, in my opinion, such faulty plans will only create what Bir does not want to see happen to Cyprus and the TCs, because once a faulty settlement is reached, the Fascists NeoPartitionist and Turkey will make sure Cyprus will not stay Unified, specially the north becoming also a EU member which Turkey will be able to undercut EU's policies through the "Turks of Cyprus" in the north and the first casualty of such a move will be the permanent extinction of the Turkish Cypriots as we know them today.

[Piratis]

If anyone knows a dispute that was settled primarily on the merits of democracy and human rights (no matter how nebulous these are) please share it with us. Morals and sentiments have little bearing on how this world is shaped. Surely it does not take a super intelligent being to understand this.

I have said this many times before and I will not get tired saying it again and again. Another push for the desirable will destroy us all, this time round. Writing about who started things first and who followed is quite useless at this stage. Our efforts should focus on finding a solution within the framework of what is considered feasible by the sane people in this country (Greek and Turkish Cypriots), the UN and the EU and perhaps other institutions with political clout and by the countries that matter which of course have a leading role, in our case, in these institutions.

What we are asking for is not the "desirable" but the bare minimum. What kind of "solution" is the one which does not even respect our human rights? Only an idiot would claim that such thing is a "solution".

If you want to say that a solution is not currently feasible, then that is something that could make sense. But saying that something that violates our human rights and dissolves democracy is called "solution", well, that is plain stupidity.

What you propose is not feasible either because the Cypriot people do not accept it. So why do you support something that is not feasible?

[Oracle]

The weakness with the 'Bananiot Fallacy' is that it does not make allowances for when the "feasible" and the "desirable" are not mutually exclusive ...

That "desired" by GCs, being striving for justice equality fairness and non-discrimination, is not counter to anything "feasible" ... unless you live in an enforced dictatorship or oligarchy.

[Bananiot]

Are day and night mutually exclusive? This rubbish you leave behind in such a pompous way are a testament to your total lack of political culture and this applies just as much to Piratis who attempted to answer in a High School essay exercise tone.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, how many more times do you want me to acknowledge the obvious, that TC suffered??? I never denied this, whenever I was asked about it I clearly acknowledged it, and yet you keep going on about me not acknowledging it!!!! What more do you want me to say about it? Do you want me to accept the TC extremists view that only the TCs suffered and make no mention of our suffering??

I assume you also acknowledge the suffering that was caused to the GCs, right? I know you do, so I don't need to remind you of how much and for how long we suffered.

What I might need to remind you though is that the partition aim of the TCs was not a result of their suffering in 1963-1974. The partition aim was created in the 50s, before any inter-communal conflict. Therefore their paranoia is not a result their suffering and the conflict, but a result of following the official Turkish line on the Cyprus issue. This explains why TCs like VP (the "average TC" according to you) who have not even been in Cyprus during 63-74 have such hate and mistrust against GCs. It is not due to their personal experiences, but due to the brainwashing they have been receiving on a daily basis which repeats to them day and night: "GCs are evil", "GCs are evil", "GCs are evil", "You can't trust GCs", "You can't trust GCs", "You can't trust GCs", "You can't trust GCs". This is done in order to promote the Partition aim of Turkey.

Finally, I want to repeat once again that based on the past history (and even the present) the GCs could also have many reasons not to trust the TCs. However mistrust can not be used as an excuse to demand the human right violations of other people.

Piratis,as I said elsewhere,it is not what you say but how you say it...You always qualify the suffering of the TCs...What you seem to be saying is "sure you sufferred a bit here and there,but look at our suffering,compared to that yours is inconsequential!" And it doesnt stop there> I also get the feeling that you mean to go on,"It is all your fault anyway,nobody invited you to come...you deserve what you get.."

Correct me if I am wrong,but you blame the TCs for killing your dream of ENOSIS with Greece back in the 50s...You never mention the fact that Taksim was a response to the GC demands of Enosis.At best it was a chicken and egg situation..You see Enosis as a legitimate demand,one that the TCs and only TCs stifled...You say nothing about the role of the British or the Russian or the USA or Greece or Turkey...I get the feeling that as far as you are concerned all your troubles stemmed ftom the fact that there were some people in Cyprus who considered themselves TCs...In your eyes we are not real Cypriots...Just pests that have been tolerated for too long...You seem to take a certain pleasure in watching the TC community disappear before your eyes...I say you,but I really mean you and all the others on this forum who have made attacking and insulting the TCs an art forum...Your distain for the TCs show in every post you make. And then you expect the average TC to come running to your arms,and tell you how sorry they are for all your suffering and pain...Ask for forgiveness for all the trouble they caused by being alive and giving Turkey an excuse to invade...Show some empathy,Piratis...Tell us you understand our fears back in the 50s,and tell us you are sorry we had to go through such extreme stress,because you didnt give a hoot about our feelings...Say it was a mistake to ignore the presence of the TC and push ahead with demands for Enosis,however legitimate it might have been.Tell us you have learned the lessons from our bloody past,and you understand our special need for extra protection to feel safe in a united Cyprus...I am not asking this for myself,Piratis...I have no such fears...But the average TC has them and I cannot ignore what I know to be the truth... They need some tangible sign that they will never have to go through what they went through back in tose dark years...All that is coming from you and Piratis et al is bitterness and intolerance,and insensitivity...This is no way to achieve unification,democratic or otherwise...Even the way you treat Bananiot,who is only trying to shed a different light on things,makes the avergae TC shiver...The intolerance shown to his ideas,and the insults he endures do not shine a positive light on you lot,as becons of democracy and human rights defenders...Viewpoint is on the record for saying that he would happily live with the likes of Bananiot in a full functiioning democracy...Yet you guys want to lynch him(Bananiot) every time he opens his mouth...How do you think that goes down with the average TC??? Anyway it is getting too late here,and I am probably getting too tired and emotional...I better drop it and accept that we will never understand each other on this most important issue regarding trust...If you are in conflict with someone,and you want them to drop their guard and come and live with you,it is not advisable to keep hitting them on the head... Lets see how much longer it will take you to appreciate this simple logical point...

[BirKibrisli]

Bravo vre Kikapu, so gracefully and simply put.

But I fear you are wasting your talent on certain people, Bir being one of them. I tries to come across as a moderate, but when you read his posts, they still have the undersones echoed by VP,Yfred, Insan and others.

I thought Bir was different, but reading his current exchanges with piratis, shows him for what he really is.

Anyway, keep up the good work and you never know one day Cyprus may well just have that True Democracy and we can all call it the Kikapu Plan (KP).

Cheers

When you next come over to Cyprus I would like to meet you and shake you hand.

I wouldn't equate Bir with any one else here on the forum if I were you B25, because Bir has over the years has shown great courage to support equality between the GCs and TCs in Cyprus living in harmony. Bir does not support partition but his fear is that, that's what will happen and the extinction of the TCs unless we have a Unified Cyprus now under any plan. He may be right in his views, but the point I was trying to relay to Bir is, by having a faulty settlement based on violations of Democracy and Human Rights as it was written in the Annan Plan which is what Turkey and all the Fascist NeoPartitionist want, is a sure way to have partition and the extinction of the TCs as we know it, so it will be no different than throwing petrol on the "partition flame" to make it worse by having another constitution that was written as faulty as the last one back in 1960. Bir is a True Cypriot who sees every other Cypriot as his brothers and sisters and he should not be condemned or judged of views based on what a solution should look like in the short term. His call for a faulty settlement plan may be good for the short term to give the TCs a chance to break out of their present predicament, but for the long term, in my opinion, such faulty plans will only create what Bir does not want to see happen to Cyprus and the TCs, because once a faulty settlement is reached, the Fascists NeoPartitionist and Turkey will make sure Cyprus will not stay Unified, specially the north becoming also a EU member which Turkey will be able to undercut EU's policies through the "Turks of Cyprus" in the north and the first casualty of such a move will be the permanent extinction of the Turkish Cypriots as we know them today.

Thank you,Kikapu...