Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

So this mistrust and need for safe guards and guarantees as provided in the AP will not just disappear becuase the GCs want them to, the EU UN Greece Turkey clearly and fully supported just a solution and no one will just cancel the whole plan, parts will be amended but the hard work that went into the AP to provide the main structure will be back, just labelled differently.

Time has moved on since 2004. The purpose of the Annan Plan was to allow Turkey to enter EU negotiations unhindered by the threat of a Cyprus veto. That was dependent on a Greek Cypriot "yes" vote. It never happened. As a result, the Annan Plan was killed off in 2004 and Cyprus entered the EU anyway.

Since the Annan Plan was devised we have further legal precedent in the European Courts as well as the Lisbon Treaty which enshrines EU law. Cyprus now as an EU member cannot accept a solution which violates the EU charter or EU law. As a result, all aspects of the Annan Plan which violated human rights and legalised the Turkish occupation are dead and buried. To all intents and purposes the Annan Plan as it favoured Turkey is also dead and buried.

The question for Turkey is whether it can accept a federal Cyprus united under the EU, subject to EU law and the acquis communitaire. Of course the Turks are stubbornly resisting but the outline of a solution is no longer determined by Turkey's needs but those of the Cypriots. That is as it should be...

The EU law and the acquis communitaire is not the end of the world if there is anything we do not like or places our rights in danger allowing GCs the free hand they long for to do as they wish and force us into minority status TCs will reject it, either its a solution via BBF with political equality of the 2 states or more of the same. Never forget the EU rubber stamped the AP and if need be can accept derrogations that will allow enough flexibility to address specific concerns. Just becuase you have entered the EU does not mean they will hand you the whole of Cyprus on a plate wrapped with a bow, never under estimate TCs or Turkey you did this in the past and you appear to heading in the same direction once again.

[Hermes]

The EU law and the acquis communitaire is not the end of the world if there is anything we do not like or places our rights in danger allowing GCs the free hand they long for to do as they wish and force us into minority status TCs will reject it, either its a solution via BBF with political equality of the 2 states or more of the same. Never forget the EU rubber stamped the AP and if need be can accept derrogations that will allow enough flexibility to address specific concerns. Just becuase you have entered the EU does not mean they will hand you the whole of Cyprus on a plate wrapped with a bow, never under estimate TCs or Turkey you did this in the past and you appear to heading in the same direction once again.

I think you're going to be disappointed if you think the EU will allow any significant or permanent derogations. EU Enlargement Commissioner Oli Rehn has stressed recently that transitional periods for derogations from EU principles and treaties in a Cyprus settlement could be “a few and in exceptional cases.” He is quoted as saying that "I am not marketing derogations from the principles of the treaties of the EU”.

These comments were widely reported and made during a Policy Briefing organized by the European Policy Centre (EPC). He stated clearly that exceptional derogations from the EU four freedoms and principles cannot be transformed to permanent derogations in case of a Cyprus solution. Rehn said that under his capacity he is the guardian of the EU treaties and principles, recalling that the Commission provides legal and technical support to the current UN-led negotiations so "that the solution of the Cyprus problem would comply with the treaties and the principles of the EU."

With a solution, the acquis communitaire, now suspended in the north, comes into effect and applies throughout the whole of Cyprus. Don't expect any permanent exceptions from the four freedoms and principles. It ain't going to happen. The EU won't allow it. If you want a solution those are the parameters. You can't pick and choose what laws suit you...

[Expatkiwi]

zan, you are dreaming the flu jab has caused your brain to seize up.

DT is NOT B25.

DT is too smart and too rich to be me

Oh and he supports APOEL Where as I couldn't really give a rats about football.

Don't be intimidated by Zan' methods. He did the same to me trying to make out I was GR! when I first arrived and I stopped posting I was so sick of his insinuations.

Ignore him because it is only that he puffs up as different persona that he thinks everybody else does.

The trouble though Oracle is that you are now jumping to conclusions that are not the intent of the writer. My queries as to the TC accusations regarding atrocities and your responses to them bear this out. As I said earlier, you are honest, but you are also too quick to rush to judgement.

[BirKibrisli]

The exchange between Piratis and Viewpoint illustrates once again why we are never going to find an agreed solution...Stripped down Piratis is saying "You were the aggressors in 1571 and ever since...GCs has suffered more and for longer than the TCs,so dont look for any sympathy or understanding from us.It is majority rule or nothing!"And VP is saying "You will always blame us for the original sin,will never appreciate our pain and sufering,so we cannot ever trust you...It is partition of nothing..." Never the twine shall meet!!! or whatever the saying is...

And stripped down what you are saying is: "Bent over and let the Turks violate your human and democratic rights yet again" you call this "sympathy and understanding" and you think that it is the "solution" of the Cyprus Problem.

Also you got wrong what I am saying. For me what happened in the past is important only for factual reasons and I talk about the past only when somebody tries to falsify our history in order to excuse yet more crimes against us. On the contrary, I do not support that even a single of TCs human rights should be violated, regardless of what they did to us in the past and they continue doing against us as we speak. Unfortunately you miss this point.

What happened in the past is important,Piratis,but not only for factual reasons...It is also important for our undestanding now of why the TCs cannot bring themselves to trust the GCs...I know that you and plenty of others here,are finding it extremely difficult to even acknowledge that the TCs had a terrible time during the 63-74 period,and not so good time before that during the 50s...Your attitude seems to be: nobody asked you to come to Cyprus in 1571,so you deserve all you've got...Blaming the TCs today for the Ottoman capture of Cyprus over 500 years ago is absurd to say the least...That is what empires did those days..They invaded and captured all they could...Nobody asked my ancestors back in those days if they wanted to move to Cyprus. They came either as soldiers,or as forcefully expatriated settlers...Over the centuries they mixed and matched with the original inhabitants and evolved into the Cypriots they are today...So please stop harping on about 1571,and try to focus on the events/facts of 1945-74...See if you can manage to come up with one thing that the GCs could ahve done differently to avoid the catastrophy which engulfed our beautiful motherland... The key to the TC mindset represented by Viewpoint is there...By refusing to see it you are not helping find a solution most people might be happy to live with...

Bir, you used to be objective, unfortunately not anymore.

You say that TC can not trust the GCs because of what happened in the past. Do you think that based on what happened in the past the GCs can trust the TCs?

We don't even need to go to the Ottoman rule which lasted until 1878 (1571 was just the begging), although it was not that long ago as you claim, my great grandparents were alive back then. I don't understand why you want to start history in 1945, not even my parents were alive at that time, and how 1945 is relevant but a few decades earlier (1878) is not. Don't forget that the people who were alive in 1945 either suffered themselves during Ottoman rule, or their parents had suffered during Ottoman rule. If TCs today can claim that they can not trust GCs due to events that happened in the 50s and the 60s, even though most of them were not even born back then, then surely the same excuse can be given to the GCs in the 40s or 50s, since themselves or their parents had suffered under Turkish rule. History is a chain of events. One part of the chain is always affected by the one before it. If we assume that the previous step is relevant, then so is the one before it and so on and so forth.

But I will go along with your request and start history in 1945. Do you think that TCs didn't commit crimes since 1945? Didn't they collaborate with the colonialists in the 50s? Didn't the form TMT and started to kill innocent GCs starting the inter-communal conflict? Didn't they collaborate with the Turkish army killing innocent GCs in 1974? And since then and until today, don't they illegally occupy our lands, selling them to foreigners and are quick to shoot or beat to death innocent unarmed GCs who demonstrate against their crimes?

I think the obvious answer is that GCs can not trust the TCs either.

So now answer this question: If a GC said that he can not trust the TCs and for this reason the solution of the Cyprus Problem should be the removal of TCs from Cyprus, in the same way that the Germans were removed from Czechoslovakia after WWII in order to remove from Germany the excuse of invading Czechoslovakia again in order to "protect" their minority, would you find the argument of this GC reasonable?

I am sure you would not Bir. And this is why I said that you are not objective any more. You find reasonable the "argument" of the extremist TCs who use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to ethnically cleanse us and violate our human rights, but surely you would not support an equivalent position from a GC that would use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to support the ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against TCs.

What I support is that the past should not be used as an excuse for crimes and human rights violations. You should not be punished for what your ancestors have done against mine, and I should not be punished for what my ancestors have done against yours. I am even willing to forgive the crimes that are committed against us today. Excusing more human rights violations against Cypriots based on some one sided view of the past is not a solution, but on the contrary is the recipe for perpetuating the Cyprus Problem and creating more division, hate and conflicts.

But if YOU (and I emphasize that) want to go to the past in order to appropriate blame and excuse yet more human rights violations, then I have every right to present the whole historical truth so at least the blame appropriation (which you want) will be done correctly.

I am still objective,Piratis,you have misread what I am saying...
I never said the Viewpoint arguments are reasonable...I think the average TC beliefs regarding the danger today from the GCs are bordering on paranoia...What I am saying is, that viewpoint arose as the result of the more recent events,starting from the late 40s through to 74...
By refusing to acknowledge the role of the GCs during this period,and by finding excuses to suggest the TC pain is inconsequential (we suffered morea nd for longer argument,you seemed to keep recycling) you are making the TCs believe they are right in their fears...Hence they will not accept any simple solution based on democracy and human rights...You know this,yet you keep harping on about your human rights which were trampled on...Well,your argument would be more credible if you first admit and acknowledge the human rights violations against the TCs during the period 1963-74... Without finding reasons why the TCs deserved it (they walked away from government,the TMT scared them etc)....Without that there will be no reunification,and your stand will go down in history as partitionist as much as Viewpoint's...

[BirKibrisli]

It is also important for our undestanding now of why the TCs cannot bring themselves to trust the GCs...

The question you should be asking is... does the average Turkish Cypriot trust the rest of the corrupt Turkish Cypriots and the “TRNC”?

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle24.htm

That is a separate question,GR!
The everage GC needs to come to terms with what happened between 1963-74,and why this has lead to the present TC fears bordering on paranoa...Sweeping it under the carpet as most GC forumers here do,will not get the job done...Whatever has come after that period is simply consequential...The key is in that period..You ignore it at the cost of a just and lasting solution...

[BirKibrisli]

I would like to respectfully disagree with my good friend Bir, by him making the claim that Democracy can become a tyranny in the hands of the majority. If you look where tyranny has taken place over time, it has been caused by the minority over the majority in places like in South Africa by the whites and in Iraq by the Sunnis who were both minorities in those countries.. Tyranny has also taken in places of Communist nations, by Fascist dictators at times like in Argentina, Spain, Italy, and of course Germany under Hitler against the Jews and other minorities although Hitler was democratically elected but then became a dictator who had dreams of making whole of Europe to speak German, and of course our "little" dictator Denktash who remained in Power for 30 years, and the list goes on to many other countries. And then we have all the theocracies exercised by most of all the Muslim countries where Democracy is once again is denied by the minority to the majority. As you can see, all these non Democratic countries is where tyranny has/had taken place and almost in the hands of the minority against the majority. On the other hand, if you look at the west now and particularly in Europe and the EU, a True Democracy is where everyone is protected from majority to minority of their Democratic to Human Rights. All the former Soviet satellite states are begging to be part of the EU so that each citizen of those countries can escape the return of communism, dictatorships and tyranny. Why should we the TC expect anything less than what the 450 million of the western Europeans expect and get, but instead we should ask for non Democratic and Human Rights violations instead, just because we may not trust the GCs, how ever true or false that statement may be.

No, we must instead build a system that takes care of those concerns without violating anyone else’s Individual rights. Every individual has a responsibility to make the system of Democracy work for everyone, and if and when those individual rights are violated by others, we will have checks and balances in place to take care of the violators. We cannot start a new Unified Cyprus by violation the Individual Rights of the majority just so that the minority can have the supreme power over them just so that they can feel safe. Is this not the same a tyranny as it was in South Africa and Iraq. Is this not the same case as all the communist nations. Is this not the same case as in all the theocracy regimes all over the Muslim countries. I thought we wanted to avoid Tyranny in Cyprus, but instead we should to start with one from day one. Surely this cannot be so. This cannot be allowed to happen in my opinion and neither will it be allowed in the EU by the EU. Lets solve our concerns for both the TCs and the GCs, but not by violating each others individual rights from day one of our “New Country”.!

Democracy is as good as the people in charge of it,dear Kikapu...It should be an ideal means to an end,not the end itself....Russia is a democracy,so is Turkey and Greece,and the USA,even Malasia and Indonesia are democracies...But their minorities would tell you they ahve little protection from the tyranny of the state..
My argument is not that we should not have democracy and human rights in Cyprus...Rather,what kind of safeguards should we have,so that one of the two sides would have no fears from living in such a state...I have gone realistic and practical in my old age... I want a solution fast,before our community totally disappears in the vast Turkish sea...

[Piratis]

The exchange between Piratis and Viewpoint illustrates once again why we are never going to find an agreed solution...Stripped down Piratis is saying "You were the aggressors in 1571 and ever since...GCs has suffered more and for longer than the TCs,so dont look for any sympathy or understanding from us.It is majority rule or nothing!"And VP is saying "You will always blame us for the original sin,will never appreciate our pain and sufering,so we cannot ever trust you...It is partition of nothing..." Never the twine shall meet!!! or whatever the saying is...

And stripped down what you are saying is: "Bent over and let the Turks violate your human and democratic rights yet again" you call this "sympathy and understanding" and you think that it is the "solution" of the Cyprus Problem.

Also you got wrong what I am saying. For me what happened in the past is important only for factual reasons and I talk about the past only when somebody tries to falsify our history in order to excuse yet more crimes against us. On the contrary, I do not support that even a single of TCs human rights should be violated, regardless of what they did to us in the past and they continue doing against us as we speak. Unfortunately you miss this point.

What happened in the past is important,Piratis,but not only for factual reasons...It is also important for our undestanding now of why the TCs cannot bring themselves to trust the GCs...I know that you and plenty of others here,are finding it extremely difficult to even acknowledge that the TCs had a terrible time during the 63-74 period,and not so good time before that during the 50s...Your attitude seems to be: nobody asked you to come to Cyprus in 1571,so you deserve all you've got...Blaming the TCs today for the Ottoman capture of Cyprus over 500 years ago is absurd to say the least...That is what empires did those days..They invaded and captured all they could...Nobody asked my ancestors back in those days if they wanted to move to Cyprus. They came either as soldiers,or as forcefully expatriated settlers...Over the centuries they mixed and matched with the original inhabitants and evolved into the Cypriots they are today...So please stop harping on about 1571,and try to focus on the events/facts of 1945-74...See if you can manage to come up with one thing that the GCs could ahve done differently to avoid the catastrophy which engulfed our beautiful motherland... The key to the TC mindset represented by Viewpoint is there...By refusing to see it you are not helping find a solution most people might be happy to live with...

Bir, you used to be objective, unfortunately not anymore.

You say that TC can not trust the GCs because of what happened in the past. Do you think that based on what happened in the past the GCs can trust the TCs?

We don't even need to go to the Ottoman rule which lasted until 1878 (1571 was just the begging), although it was not that long ago as you claim, my great grandparents were alive back then. I don't understand why you want to start history in 1945, not even my parents were alive at that time, and how 1945 is relevant but a few decades earlier (1878) is not. Don't forget that the people who were alive in 1945 either suffered themselves during Ottoman rule, or their parents had suffered during Ottoman rule. If TCs today can claim that they can not trust GCs due to events that happened in the 50s and the 60s, even though most of them were not even born back then, then surely the same excuse can be given to the GCs in the 40s or 50s, since themselves or their parents had suffered under Turkish rule. History is a chain of events. One part of the chain is always affected by the one before it. If we assume that the previous step is relevant, then so is the one before it and so on and so forth.

But I will go along with your request and start history in 1945. Do you think that TCs didn't commit crimes since 1945? Didn't they collaborate with the colonialists in the 50s? Didn't the form TMT and started to kill innocent GCs starting the inter-communal conflict? Didn't they collaborate with the Turkish army killing innocent GCs in 1974? And since then and until today, don't they illegally occupy our lands, selling them to foreigners and are quick to shoot or beat to death innocent unarmed GCs who demonstrate against their crimes?

I think the obvious answer is that GCs can not trust the TCs either.

So now answer this question: If a GC said that he can not trust the TCs and for this reason the solution of the Cyprus Problem should be the removal of TCs from Cyprus, in the same way that the Germans were removed from Czechoslovakia after WWII in order to remove from Germany the excuse of invading Czechoslovakia again in order to "protect" their minority, would you find the argument of this GC reasonable?

I am sure you would not Bir. And this is why I said that you are not objective any more. You find reasonable the "argument" of the extremist TCs who use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to ethnically cleanse us and violate our human rights, but surely you would not support an equivalent position from a GC that would use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to support the ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against TCs.

What I support is that the past should not be used as an excuse for crimes and human rights violations. You should not be punished for what your ancestors have done against mine, and I should not be punished for what my ancestors have done against yours. I am even willing to forgive the crimes that are committed against us today. Excusing more human rights violations against Cypriots based on some one sided view of the past is not a solution, but on the contrary is the recipe for perpetuating the Cyprus Problem and creating more division, hate and conflicts.

But if YOU (and I emphasize that) want to go to the past in order to appropriate blame and excuse yet more human rights violations, then I have every right to present the whole historical truth so at least the blame appropriation (which you want) will be done correctly.

I am still objective,Piratis,you have misread what I am saying...
I never said the Viewpoint arguments are reasonable...I think the average TC beliefs regarding the danger today from the GCs are bordering on paranoia...What I am saying is, that viewpoint arose as the result of the more recent events,starting from the late 40s through to 74...
By refusing to acknowledge the role of the GCs during this period,and by finding excuses to suggest the TC pain is inconsequential (we suffered morea nd for longer argument,you seemed to keep recycling) you are making the TCs believe they are right in their fears...Hence they will not accept any simple solution based on democracy and human rights...You know this,yet you keep harping on about your human rights which were trampled on...Well,your argument would be more credible if you first admit and acknowledge the human rights violations against the TCs during the period 1963-74... Without finding reasons why the TCs deserved it (they walked away from government,the TMT scared them etc)....Without that there will be no reunification,and your stand will go down in history as partitionist as much as Viewpoint's...

Bir, how many more times do you want me to acknowledge the obvious, that TC suffered??? I never denied this, whenever I was asked about it I clearly acknowledged it, and yet you keep going on about me not acknowledging it!!!! What more do you want me to say about it? Do you want me to accept the TC extremists view that only the TCs suffered and make no mention of our suffering??

I assume you also acknowledge the suffering that was caused to the GCs, right? I know you do, so I don't need to remind you of how much and for how long we suffered.

What I might need to remind you though is that the partition aim of the TCs was not a result of their suffering in 1963-1974. The partition aim was created in the 50s, before any inter-communal conflict. Therefore their paranoia is not a result their suffering and the conflict, but a result of following the official Turkish line on the Cyprus issue. This explains why TCs like VP (the "average TC" according to you) who have not even been in Cyprus during 63-74 have such hate and mistrust against GCs. It is not due to their personal experiences, but due to the brainwashing they have been receiving on a daily basis which repeats to them day and night: "GCs are evil", "GCs are evil", "GCs are evil", "You can't trust GCs", "You can't trust GCs", "You can't trust GCs", "You can't trust GCs". This is done in order to promote the Partition aim of Turkey.

Finally, I want to repeat once again that based on the past history (and even the present) the GCs could also have many reasons not to trust the TCs. However mistrust can not be used as an excuse to demand the human right violations of other people.

[Piratis]

I would like to respectfully disagree with my good friend Bir, by him making the claim that Democracy can become a tyranny in the hands of the majority. If you look where tyranny has taken place over time, it has been caused by the minority over the majority in places like in South Africa by the whites and in Iraq by the Sunnis who were both minorities in those countries.. Tyranny has also taken in places of Communist nations, by Fascist dictators at times like in Argentina, Spain, Italy, and of course Germany under Hitler against the Jews and other minorities although Hitler was democratically elected but then became a dictator who had dreams of making whole of Europe to speak German, and of course our "little" dictator Denktash who remained in Power for 30 years, and the list goes on to many other countries. And then we have all the theocracies exercised by most of all the Muslim countries where Democracy is once again is denied by the minority to the majority. As you can see, all these non Democratic countries is where tyranny has/had taken place and almost in the hands of the minority against the majority. On the other hand, if you look at the west now and particularly in Europe and the EU, a True Democracy is where everyone is protected from majority to minority of their Democratic to Human Rights. All the former Soviet satellite states are begging to be part of the EU so that each citizen of those countries can escape the return of communism, dictatorships and tyranny. Why should we the TC expect anything less than what the 450 million of the western Europeans expect and get, but instead we should ask for non Democratic and Human Rights violations instead, just because we may not trust the GCs, how ever true or false that statement may be.

No, we must instead build a system that takes care of those concerns without violating anyone else’s Individual rights. Every individual has a responsibility to make the system of Democracy work for everyone, and if and when those individual rights are violated by others, we will have checks and balances in place to take care of the violators. We cannot start a new Unified Cyprus by violation the Individual Rights of the majority just so that the minority can have the supreme power over them just so that they can feel safe. Is this not the same a tyranny as it was in South Africa and Iraq. Is this not the same case as all the communist nations. Is this not the same case as in all the theocracy regimes all over the Muslim countries. I thought we wanted to avoid Tyranny in Cyprus, but instead we should to start with one from day one. Surely this cannot be so. This cannot be allowed to happen in my opinion and neither will it be allowed in the EU by the EU. Lets solve our concerns for both the TCs and the GCs, but not by violating each others individual rights from day one of our “New Country”.!

Democracy is as good as the people in charge of it,dear Kikapu...It should be an ideal means to an end,not the end itself....Russia is a democracy,so is Turkey and Greece,and the USA,even Malasia and Indonesia are democracies...But their minorities would tell you they ahve little protection from the tyranny of the state..
My argument is not that we should not have democracy and human rights in Cyprus...Rather,what kind of safeguards should we have,so that one of the two sides would have no fears from living in such a state...I have gone realistic and practical in my old age... I want a solution fast,before our community totally disappears in the vast Turkish sea...

If you want to be practical you have to be specific also.

In previous posts I have been very specific and I listed things that can be such safeguards (proportional representation of TCs at all levels, veto of TCs on constitutional changes, demilitarization, International force etc). I also listed things that have nothing to do with such safeguards, e.g. TCs controlling 30% of the land and 50% of the coast line. Also I listed things that are contrary to such safeguards, which are summarized with the "argument" of the kind "Lets violate the human rights of GCs in order to remove the possibility that the human rights of TCs will be violated".

So why don't you be practical and specific and tell us how you think we should apply democracy and human rights in Cyprus?

[Piratis]

The exchange between Piratis and Viewpoint illustrates once again why we are never going to find an agreed solution...Stripped down Piratis is saying "You were the aggressors in 1571 and ever since...GCs has suffered more and for longer than the TCs,so dont look for any sympathy or understanding from us.It is majority rule or nothing!"And VP is saying "You will always blame us for the original sin,will never appreciate our pain and sufering,so we cannot ever trust you...It is partition of nothing..." Never the twine shall meet!!! or whatever the saying is...

And stripped down what you are saying is: "Bent over and let the Turks violate your human and democratic rights yet again" you call this "sympathy and understanding" and you think that it is the "solution" of the Cyprus Problem.

Also you got wrong what I am saying. For me what happened in the past is important only for factual reasons and I talk about the past only when somebody tries to falsify our history in order to excuse yet more crimes against us. On the contrary, I do not support that even a single of TCs human rights should be violated, regardless of what they did to us in the past and they continue doing against us as we speak. Unfortunately you miss this point.

What happened in the past is important,Piratis,but not only for factual reasons...It is also important for our undestanding now of why the TCs cannot bring themselves to trust the GCs...I know that you and plenty of others here,are finding it extremely difficult to even acknowledge that the TCs had a terrible time during the 63-74 period,and not so good time before that during the 50s...Your attitude seems to be: nobody asked you to come to Cyprus in 1571,so you deserve all you've got...Blaming the TCs today for the Ottoman capture of Cyprus over 500 years ago is absurd to say the least...That is what empires did those days..They invaded and captured all they could...Nobody asked my ancestors back in those days if they wanted to move to Cyprus. They came either as soldiers,or as forcefully expatriated settlers...Over the centuries they mixed and matched with the original inhabitants and evolved into the Cypriots they are today...So please stop harping on about 1571,and try to focus on the events/facts of 1945-74...See if you can manage to come up with one thing that the GCs could ahve done differently to avoid the catastrophy which engulfed our beautiful motherland... The key to the TC mindset represented by Viewpoint is there...By refusing to see it you are not helping find a solution most people might be happy to live with...

Bir, you used to be objective, unfortunately not anymore.

You say that TC can not trust the GCs because of what happened in the past. Do you think that based on what happened in the past the GCs can trust the TCs?

We don't even need to go to the Ottoman rule which lasted until 1878 (1571 was just the begging), although it was not that long ago as you claim, my great grandparents were alive back then. I don't understand why you want to start history in 1945, not even my parents were alive at that time, and how 1945 is relevant but a few decades earlier (1878) is not. Don't forget that the people who were alive in 1945 either suffered themselves during Ottoman rule, or their parents had suffered during Ottoman rule. If TCs today can claim that they can not trust GCs due to events that happened in the 50s and the 60s, even though most of them were not even born back then, then surely the same excuse can be given to the GCs in the 40s or 50s, since themselves or their parents had suffered under Turkish rule. History is a chain of events. One part of the chain is always affected by the one before it. If we assume that the previous step is relevant, then so is the one before it and so on and so forth.

But I will go along with your request and start history in 1945. Do you think that TCs didn't commit crimes since 1945? Didn't they collaborate with the colonialists in the 50s? Didn't the form TMT and started to kill innocent GCs starting the inter-communal conflict? Didn't they collaborate with the Turkish army killing innocent GCs in 1974? And since then and until today, don't they illegally occupy our lands, selling them to foreigners and are quick to shoot or beat to death innocent unarmed GCs who demonstrate against their crimes?

I think the obvious answer is that GCs can not trust the TCs either.

So now answer this question: If a GC said that he can not trust the TCs and for this reason the solution of the Cyprus Problem should be the removal of TCs from Cyprus, in the same way that the Germans were removed from Czechoslovakia after WWII in order to remove from Germany the excuse of invading Czechoslovakia again in order to "protect" their minority, would you find the argument of this GC reasonable?

I am sure you would not Bir. And this is why I said that you are not objective any more. You find reasonable the "argument" of the extremist TCs who use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to ethnically cleanse us and violate our human rights, but surely you would not support an equivalent position from a GC that would use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to support the ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against TCs.

What I support is that the past should not be used as an excuse for crimes and human rights violations. You should not be punished for what your ancestors have done against mine, and I should not be punished for what my ancestors have done against yours. I am even willing to forgive the crimes that are committed against us today. Excusing more human rights violations against Cypriots based on some one sided view of the past is not a solution, but on the contrary is the recipe for perpetuating the Cyprus Problem and creating more division, hate and conflicts.

But if YOU (and I emphasize that) want to go to the past in order to appropriate blame and excuse yet more human rights violations, then I have every right to present the whole historical truth so at least the blame appropriation (which you want) will be done correctly.

You still dont get it, for what ever reasons you may have you do not have to trust TCs we are not asking you to trust us, but you demand we trust you...there is a big difference, you seem to feel that because you feel a certain way and that allows you to trust us that we have to do the same, it just dont work that way when will you realize this fact. We will never trust GCs until we see concrete developments or a solution where the structure will allow to trust not just GC but the system that will automatically correct any deviences.

Many GCs do not trust you and they would prefer if Cyprus had no TCs, because in that way Turkey would not be able to use the TC community in order to create problems to Cyprus again. You being in Cyprus is a risk for us. It is this kind of risk that was removed from Czechoslovakia when the German minority was removed from this country so the Germans would not be able to use their minority as an excuse to invade again.

However us not trusting you is not an excuse to ethnically cleanse you or violate your human rights. Similarly, you not trusting us is not an excuse to violate ours.

Therefore either we trust each other or not we are obligated to respect each others human and democratic rights and accept whatever risks come with that. If you think that the only way to protect your rights is to violate ours, and if we think that the only way to protect ours is to violate yours, that basically means we will continue the war until one of the 2 sides gets the final victory over the other. Is this what you want?

[Kikapu]

Democracy is as good as the people in charge of it,dear Kikapu...It should be an ideal means to an end,not the end itself....Russia is a democracy,so is Turkey and Greece,and the USA,even Malasia and Indonesia are democracies...But their minorities would tell you they ahve little protection from the tyranny of the state..
My argument is not that we should not have democracy and human rights in Cyprus...Rather,what kind of safeguards should we have,so that one of the two sides would have no fears from living in such a state...I have gone realistic and practical in my old age... I want a solution fast,before our community totally disappears in the vast Turkish sea...

Many countries use the word Democracy ONLY in name, Bir, which Turkey is a prime example of that as well as many other countries. The USA for very long time used the word Democracy also only meaning Democracy for the white rich men which took another 200 years or so to bring True Democracy to all Americans. Is this what we want to do also in Cyprus, start with a "Domocracy only in name" with Undemocratic and violations of Human Rights from the beginning in the hopes that we can have a True Democracy such as what Europe and the west enjoys today sometime in the future in perhaps 50, 100, 200 years. Many people have died and suffered over the years to reach the point of True Democracy in many countries which is what I talk about and not just Democracy in name only. Democracy in name only is where the abuses of the minority and the majority takes place and by having a South Africa type of Apartheid of "Democracy“ in Cyprus where the rights of the majority are violated in the hands of the minority is equally unacceptable just because one side may not trust True Democracy, just because they are the numerical minority. The best protection of any numerical minority is True Democracy and in the case of the TCs in Cyprus, the north, if they were to accept True Federation as in the plan I have written about, they will be the majority TCs in the north where security through their numbers will be achieved if sufficient land is given back to the GCs, they will have equal number of seats in the upper house to have a veto power built into the system in the Federal Government and the north State Government will be in the hands of the TCs where 99% of the laws are passed by each state to govern themselves.

These are the tangible advantages and differences the TCs will have in their favour over all other so called democracies in other countries and all this under a True Democracy without having to violate anyone’s Human Rights. The TCs know that these safeguards will protect them but what these safeguards does not do, is to allow them to make the north a True Turkish territory with the option to declare independence in the future, so here lies the problem why the TCs want to reject True Democracy and Human Rights just because they cannot have the north as Turkish land only and also will not be able to become Independent country in the future. This is also what Turkey rejects, and if Turkey rejects such a plan because it does not suit them, then what option do the TCs have but also to reject such a plan no matter how much the TCs be better off than the present situation. Lets be honest and say that double enosis of Cyprus was the dream of Greece and Turkey for a very long time, way before the 1960 creation of the RoC, and the only reason the way the 1960 constitution was written in such an undemocratic and violations of Human Rights was indeed to create enough hatred and segregation that it would enable Greece and Turkey to reach their objectives which worked to a degree. If we want to really finalize that FINAL partition, is to have another constitution based on Undemocratic and violations of Human Rights as well as International laws and the EU Principles just as the Annan Plan was written and we will have that double enosis.

I know that's not what you want, Bir, but that's what the Fascists NeoPartitionist want and the only way to achieve their objectives is not to have a True Democracy. Well, the GCs will not go for it and neither will the EU so that leaves two options for the TCs and those are either a True Federation with everyone’s rights protected as equal citizens or remain as we are now where for certainty the TCs will eventually become extinct which some TCs will be happy to see themselves become extinct because they would rather be called "Turks of Cyprus" instead which is what is the position of all the Fascist NeoPartitionist. So lets not blame the principles of True Democracy for Cyprus as being the reason why the TCs may refuse to become part of it and instead end up disappearing altogether just because they want to serve motherland Turkey's interest more than they want to protect their Cypriot ethnicity and culture. There is never a perfect system of Government, Bir, but if we can't trust the system of True Democracy in the EU today, how can we trust a system of Government based on Undemocratic, Human Rights and International law violations. It all really comes down to that in my opinion.!