Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

Bir, you used to be objective, unfortunately not anymore.

You say that TC can not trust the GCs because of what happened in the past. Do you think that based on what happened in the past the GCs can trust the TCs?

We don't even need to go to the Ottoman rule which lasted until 1878 (1571 was just the begging), although it was not that long ago as you claim, my great grandparents were alive back then. I don't understand why you want to start history in 1945, not even my parents were alive at that time, and how 1945 is relevant but a few decades earlier (1878) is not. Don't forget that the people who were alive in 1945 either suffered themselves during Ottoman rule, or their parents had suffered during Ottoman rule. If TCs today can claim that they can not trust GCs due to events that happened in the 50s and the 60s, even though most of them were not even born back then, then surely the same excuse can be given to the GCs in the 40s or 50s, since themselves or their parents had suffered under Turkish rule. History is a chain of events. One part of the chain is always affected by the one before it. If we assume that the previous step is relevant, then so is the one before it and so on and so forth.

But I will go along with your request and start history in 1945. Do you think that TCs didn't commit crimes since 1945? Didn't they collaborate with the colonialists in the 50s? Didn't the form TMT and started to kill innocent GCs starting the inter-communal conflict? Didn't they collaborate with the Turkish army killing innocent GCs in 1974? And since then and until today, don't they illegally occupy our lands, selling them to foreigners and are quick to shoot or beat to death innocent unarmed GCs who demonstrate against their crimes?

I think the obvious answer is that GCs can not trust the TCs either.

So now answer this question: If a GC said that he can not trust the TCs and for this reason the solution of the Cyprus Problem should be the removal of TCs from Cyprus, in the same way that the Germans were removed from Czechoslovakia after WWII in order to remove from Germany the excuse of invading Czechoslovakia again in order to "protect" their minority, would you find the argument of this GC reasonable?

I am sure you would not Bir. And this is why I said that you are not objective any more. You find reasonable the "argument" of the extremist TCs who use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to ethnically cleanse us and violate our human rights, but surely you would not support an equivalent position from a GC that would use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to support the ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against TCs.

What I support is that the past should not be used as an excuse for crimes and human rights violations. You should not be punished for what your ancestors have done against mine, and I should not be punished for what my ancestors have done against yours. I am even willing to forgive the crimes that are committed against us today. Excusing more human rights violations against Cypriots based on some one sided view of the past is not a solution, but on the contrary is the recipe for perpetuating the Cyprus Problem and creating more division, hate and conflicts.

But if YOU (and I emphasize that) want to go to the past in order to appropriate blame and excuse yet more human rights violations, then I have every right to present the whole historical truth so at least the blame appropriation (which you want) will be done correctly.

For those who like to pick and choose their dates in history ... a clear explanation on perspective!

[Get Real!]

It is also important for our undestanding now of why the TCs cannot bring themselves to trust the GCs...

The question you should be asking is... does the average Turkish Cypriot trust the rest of the corrupt Turkish Cypriots and the “TRNC”?

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle24.htm

[Expatkiwi]

Nope it's not. YFred is a notorious and consistent liar. He previously said he was born in 1958. Shortly after, EOKA were disbanded. So we now have the "eye-witness" account of a TWO year old YFred as credible evidence, huh?

Expat ... your capacity for evaluating facts is non-existent and you come across as a pathetic attention seeking toddler with arrested development. I suggest you give yourself (and us) a break as you are clearly unconscious to anything we say. It's like shouting in a vacuum trying to exchange with you. You have made it a pointless exercise as you are either enormously incapacitated in the thinking department, or paid to pour out rubbish.

Pathitis told me that I should not judge Cypriots by a few. But I've got to be honest here: if you are any example to go by, then I don't think I'd ever feel safe if I set foot in your country...

FYI, I'm not being paid to post on this forum. I come on this forum to discuss things and to try and justify why I feel the way I do about the TRNC, and I just get nothing but mostly abuse and evasions from you and your like-minded colleagues. You are honest, yet you are also accusatory and rather narrow-minded in that you will not accept ANY item that would put your side in a not-quite-so-rosy light.

[zan]

The beginnings of another fictional tale ....

Oracle, This is the statement of an eyewitness; something that both Boomerang and Sotos have been screaming at me about. If you wish to refute it, then I'll have to use the examples from the aforementoned forum members and ask you for something to back up that statement.

Nope it's not. YFred is a notorious and consistent liar. He previously said he was born in 1958. Shortly after, EOKA were disbanded. So we now have the "eye-witness" account of a TWO year old YFred as credible evidence, huh?

Expat ... your capacity for evaluating facts is non-existent and you come across as a pathetic attention seeking toddler with arrested development. I suggest you give yourself (and us) a break as you are clearly unconscious to anything we say. It's like shouting in a vacuum trying to exchange with you. You have made it a pointless exercise as you are either enormously incapacitated in the thinking department, or paid to pour out rubbish.

This from a woman who has changed her nick a thousand times to hide her shame

[Kikapu]

You still dont get forever reasons you may have not to trust TCs we are not asking you to but you demand we trust you...there is a big difference, you seem to feel that because you feel a certain way and thats to trust us that we have to do the same, it just dont work that way when will you realize this fact. We will never trust GCs until we see concrete developments or a solution where the structure will allow to trust not just GC but the system that will automatically correct any deviences.

The trouble with your claim above is, I gave you a system where the TCs would have a voice, have a state in the north where the majority will be TCs and most of the power, if not all, controlled by the TCs, providing sufficient land was returned from the north to the south, but you clearly are not interested because a) you want to keep as much land as possible that belongs to the GCs and b) it did not allow the north to become one of the "founding states" where the north could declare independence from the union with the south and go their separate way. Basically I was able to safeguard all of your concerns, which now sounds more like excuses because your concerns were answered and dealt with which you did not like, unless the north is a pure Turkish territory with 50% power across the line as envisaged by the Annan Plan, there can be no trust between the GCs and the TCs. Therefore, there was nothing wrong with my plan for both sides to have a very working True Federation as the case is in the US for example. The only fault my plan had, that it did not give you what you had in the AP which you supported such an unfair, Racist, Undemocratic, Violations on Human Rights, Violations on International Laws and violations of would be EU Principles that would become so unworkable that partition would have occurred in a short time. This is your only aim which is partition by holding onto as much of the north as possible and not for any Fair and Just solution for all Cypriots.

My cousin's husband said it very clearly and correctly to me in Cyprus back in 2007 which you can never say it yourself and that the TCs voted ONLY for the Annan Plan and not for peace, which basically means that AP was a way to have partition with the north becoming all Turkish Territory and independent from the south. This is still what you want today, so nothing has changed. If you, you as in VP voted NO on the AP, then you would be more credible in your arguments when showing concerns about TCs voice and safety in a unified Cyprus under Full Democracy and Human Rights in which my plan would have taken care of your concerns, and if being in the EU was not still good enough, than lets have NATO forces in Cyprus to protect all Cypriots, but of course you will not go for that, because you want Turkey to be there with her troops instead to help you with such a partition once in the EU of course, which then Turkey could interfere EU through the north’s MP’s as an independent state in the EU. With such demands, no one can find your claims to be credible when in fact real concerns of TCs should be discussed and solved.

Once again, you, as in VP, who were not born in Cyprus and did not land there until 1993 cannot speak about not being able to trust the GCs so “passionately” as you do, when you have ZERO experience in what happened there before 1993. I can express such fears, YFred can, Bir can, Deniz can, LB74 can and even Zan can as a 2 year old, but not you VP. All you are doing is just propagandising for partition and nothing else. All you are doing is stirring up hatred, and nothing else. All you are doing is being the mouth piece of Racists Fascists and nothing else. Many TCs have suffered and continue to suffer today from isolation by the RoC to being under the thumb of Turkey and the settlers which you are not concerned with their needs, but you rather use their sufferings to further your cause of Partition. You can follow that path all you want but don’t expect free thinking TCs to follow your lead or believe every time your cry wolf about security of the TCs and trust from the GCs in a Unified Cyprus because times have changed from the dark days of 1963 to being a member of the modern day EU. Therefore I for one do recognise safeguards for the TCs but not at the expense of others Democratic and Human Rights. You on the other hand want to violate those rights of others as well as have the option to have partition at some point. This cannot be allowed to happen other than during some specific transitional period.!

[YFred]

Nope it's not. YFred is a notorious and consistent liar. He previously said he was born in 1958. Shortly after, EOKA were disbanded. So we now have the "eye-witness" account of a TWO year old YFred as credible evidence, huh?

Expat ... your capacity for evaluating facts is non-existent and you come across as a pathetic attention seeking toddler with arrested development. I suggest you give yourself (and us) a break as you are clearly unconscious to anything we say. It's like shouting in a vacuum trying to exchange with you. You have made it a pointless exercise as you are either enormously incapacitated in the thinking department, or paid to pour out rubbish.

Pathitis told me that I should not judge Cypriots by a few. But I've got to be honest here: if you are any example to go by, then I don't think I'd ever feel safe if I set foot in your country...

FYI, I'm not being paid to post on this forum. I come on this forum to discuss things and to try and justify why I feel the way I do about the TRNC, and I just get nothing but mostly abuse and evasions from you and your like-minded colleagues. You are honest, yet you are also accusatory and rather narrow-minded in that you will not accept ANY item that would put your side in a not-quite-so-rosy light.

Which bit do you find difficult to comprehend Horakill. The year I was born or the fact that eoka in 63 set position on a hill top called stavros inside a church and took pot shot at children on the edge of Lurujina. eoka disbanded in 58? pull the other one the middle one has bells on it. Who was firing at us in 63? Angels, yeah GC Hells Angels. To hell may they go including your now beloved now dead as a dodo president.
You stupid pirate from the island of Lesbos.
Get stuffed.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

The trouble with your claim above is, I gave you a system where the TCs would have a voice, have a state in the north where the majority will be TCs and most of the power, if not all, controlled by the TCs, providing sufficient land was returned from the north to the south, but you clearly are not interested because a) you want to keep as much land as possible that belongs to the GCs and b) it did not allow the north to become one of the "founding states" where the north could declare independence from the union with the south and go their separate way. Basically I was able to safeguard all of your concerns, which now sounds more like excuses because your concerns were answered and dealt with which you did not like, unless the north is a pure Turkish territory with 50% power across the line as envisaged by the Annan Plan, there can be no trust between the GCs and the TCs. Therefore, there was nothing wrong with my plan for both sides to have a very working True Federation as the case is in the US for example. The only fault my plan had, that it did not give you what you had in the AP which you supported such an unfair, Racist, Undemocratic, Violations on Human Rights, Violations on International Laws and violations of would be EU Principles that would become so unworkable that partition would have occurred in a short time. This is your only aim which is partition by holding onto as much of the north as possible and not for any Fair and Just solution for all Cypriots.

Your plan was rejected becuase it was camaflouged by you to put TCs and the North state at risk. With proportional representation in the lower house giving GCs control our only auto control was the upper house where the ratio was 5 from south state and 5 from north state but where it was flawed was allowing the advantage of the GC using their numerical advantage to swing just 1 seat in the north state in their favor to take control of power all over the island, therefore having sussed you treacherous plan to place us at risk I rejected your plan.

There has to be inbuilt system that will not allow such a sitatuation putting either state at risk, therefore leaving them out of the equation.

My cousin's husband said it very clearly and correctly to me in Cyprus back in 2007 which you can never say it yourself and that the TCs voted ONLY for the Annan Plan and not for peace, which basically means that AP was a way to have partition with the north becoming all Turkish Territory and independent from the south. This is still what you want today, so nothing has changed. If you, you as in VP voted NO on the AP, then you would be more credible in your arguments when showing concerns about TCs voice and safety in a unified Cyprus under Full Democracy and Human Rights in which my plan would have taken care of your concerns, and if being in the EU was not still good enough, than lets have NATO forces in Cyprus to protect all Cypriots, but of course you will not go for that, because you want Turkey to be there with her troops instead to help you with such a partition once in the EU of course, which then Turkey could interfere EU through the north’s MP’s as an independent state in the EU. With such demands, no one can find your claims to be credible when in fact real concerns of TCs should be discussed and solved.

The EU UN UK Greece and many others backed the AP it was just not me, if whats necessary for TCs to trust GCs is something liek the AP then that only goes to show the chasm that exsists and cannot be bridged.

The NATO option can be considered if Turkey is such a no no for GCs but there has to be additional allowances allowing Turkey to step in if NATO is delaying action in a time of crisis.

Once again, you, as in VP, who were not born in Cyprus and did not land there until 1993 cannot speak about not being able to trust the GCs so “passionately” as you do, when you have ZERO experience in what happened there before 1993. I can express such fears, YFred can, Bir can, Deniz can, LB74 can and even Zan can as a 2 year old, but not you VP. All you are doing is just propagandising for partition and nothing else. All you are doing is stirring up hatred, and nothing else. All you are doing is being the mouth piece of Racists Fascists and nothing else. Many TCs have suffered and continue to suffer today from isolation by the RoC to being under the thumb of Turkey and the settlers which you are not concerned with their needs, but you rather use their sufferings to further your cause of Partition. You can follow that path all you want but don’t expect free thinking TCs to follow your lead or believe every time your cry wolf about security of the TCs and trust from the GCs in a Unified Cyprus because times have changed from the dark days of 1963 to being a member of the modern day EU. Therefore I for one do recognise safeguards for the TCs but not at the expense of others Democratic and Human Rights. You on the other hand want to violate those rights of others as well as have the option to have partition at some point. This cannot be allowed to happen other than during some specific transitional period.!

Me not being born in Cyprus has nothing to do with anything my wife was, all her family and all mine were born here my mother side and mother inlaws are all refugees , I relay the general feeling of them all that they do not and will not trust GCs unless there are concrete steps or a solution with inbuilt mechanisms that will guarantee the effective contirbution of TCs.

[Oracle]

Nope it's not. YFred is a notorious and consistent liar. He previously said he was born in 1958. Shortly after, EOKA were disbanded. So we now have the "eye-witness" account of a TWO year old YFred as credible evidence, huh?

Expat ... your capacity for evaluating facts is non-existent and you come across as a pathetic attention seeking toddler with arrested development. I suggest you give yourself (and us) a break as you are clearly unconscious to anything we say. It's like shouting in a vacuum trying to exchange with you. You have made it a pointless exercise as you are either enormously incapacitated in the thinking department, or paid to pour out rubbish.

Pathitis told me that I should not judge Cypriots by a few. But I've got to be honest here: if you are any example to go by, then I don't think I'd ever feel safe if I set foot in your country...

FYI, I'm not being paid to post on this forum. I come on this forum to discuss things and to try and justify why I feel the way I do about the TRNC, and I just get nothing but mostly abuse and evasions from you and your like-minded colleagues. You are honest, yet you are also accusatory and rather narrow-minded in that you will not accept ANY item that would put your side in a not-quite-so-rosy light.

You delude yourself if you think you offer anything positive for discussion. If you had an ounce of ability to digest and evaluate evidence, something fruitful may germinate in your brain.

"Discuss" all you wish, but without the capacity to sort the wheat from the chuff, your input is useless, that's all.

You unquestionably accept all you are force-fed by Denktash and your "TC friends"; level accusations upon us, and then ignore the evidence and arguments we present you.

The attention you have enjoyed here is short lived as we are all tired of your pathetic "integrity" to the "trnc" act.

[zan]

You still dont get forever reasons you may have not to trust TCs we are not asking you to but you demand we trust you...there is a big difference, you seem to feel that because you feel a certain way and thats to trust us that we have to do the same, it just dont work that way when will you realize this fact. We will never trust GCs until we see concrete developments or a solution where the structure will allow to trust not just GC but the system that will automatically correct any deviences.

The trouble with your claim above is, I gave you a system where the TCs would have a voice, have a state in the north where the majority will be TCs and most of the power, if not all, controlled by the TCs, providing sufficient land was returned from the north to the south, but you clearly are not interested because a) you want to keep as much land as possible that belongs to the GCs and b) it did not allow the north to become one of the "founding states" where the north could declare independence from the union with the south and go their separate way. Basically I was able to safeguard all of your concerns, which now sounds more like excuses because your concerns were answered and dealt with which you did not like, unless the north is a pure Turkish territory with 50% power across the line as envisaged by the Annan Plan, there can be no trust between the GCs and the TCs. Therefore, there was nothing wrong with my plan for both sides to have a very working True Federation as the case is in the US for example. The only fault my plan had, that it did not give you what you had in the AP which you supported such an unfair, Racist, Undemocratic, Violations on Human Rights, Violations on International Laws and violations of would be EU Principles that would become so unworkable that partition would have occurred in a short time. This is your only aim which is partition by holding onto as much of the north as possible and not for any Fair and Just solution for all Cypriots.

My cousin's husband said it very clearly and correctly to me in Cyprus back in 2007 which you can never say it yourself and that the TCs voted ONLY for the Annan Plan and not for peace, which basically means that AP was a way to have partition with the north becoming all Turkish Territory and independent from the south. This is still what you want today, so nothing has changed. If you, you as in VP voted NO on the AP, then you would be more credible in your arguments when showing concerns about TCs voice and safety in a unified Cyprus under Full Democracy and Human Rights in which my plan would have taken care of your concerns, and if being in the EU was not still good enough, than lets have NATO forces in Cyprus to protect all Cypriots, but of course you will not go for that, because you want Turkey to be there with her troops instead to help you with such a partition once in the EU of course, which then Turkey could interfere EU through the north’s MP’s as an independent state in the EU. With such demands, no one can find your claims to be credible when in fact real concerns of TCs should be discussed and solved.

Once again, you, as in VP, who were not born in Cyprus and did not land there until 1993 cannot speak about not being able to trust the GCs so “passionately” as you do, when you have ZERO experience in what happened there before 1993. I can express such fears, YFred can, Bir can, Deniz can, LB74 can and even Zan can as a 2 year old, but not you VP. All you are doing is just propagandising for partition and nothing else. All you are doing is stirring up hatred, and nothing else. All you are doing is being the mouth piece of Racists Fascists and nothing else. Many TCs have suffered and continue to suffer today from isolation by the RoC to being under the thumb of Turkey and the settlers which you are not concerned with their needs, but you rather use their sufferings to further your cause of Partition. You can follow that path all you want but don’t expect free thinking TCs to follow your lead or believe every time your cry wolf about security of the TCs and trust from the GCs in a Unified Cyprus because times have changed from the dark days of 1963 to being a member of the modern day EU. Therefore I for one do recognise safeguards for the TCs but not at the expense of others Democratic and Human Rights. You on the other hand want to violate those rights of others as well as have the option to have partition at some point. This cannot be allowed to happen other than during some specific transitional period.!

Don't worry Kiks...The UN are taking your idea but refining it and making it workable......Or are you saying that you know better than them???

[Kikapu]

I would like to respectfully disagree with my good friend Bir, by him making the claim that Democracy can become a tyranny in the hands of the majority. If you look where tyranny has taken place over time, it has been caused by the minority over the majority in places like in South Africa by the whites and in Iraq by the Sunnis who were both minorities in those countries.. Tyranny has also taken in places of Communist nations, by Fascist dictators at times like in Argentina, Spain, Italy, and of course Germany under Hitler against the Jews and other minorities although Hitler was democratically elected but then became a dictator who had dreams of making whole of Europe to speak German, and of course our "little" dictator Denktash who remained in Power for 30 years, and the list goes on to many other countries. And then we have all the theocracies exercised by most of all the Muslim countries where Democracy is once again is denied by the minority to the majority. As you can see, all these non Democratic countries is where tyranny has/had taken place and almost in the hands of the minority against the majority. On the other hand, if you look at the west now and particularly in Europe and the EU, a True Democracy is where everyone is protected from majority to minority of their Democratic to Human Rights. All the former Soviet satellite states are begging to be part of the EU so that each citizen of those countries can escape the return of communism, dictatorships and tyranny. Why should we the TC expect anything less than what the 450 million of the western Europeans expect and get, but instead we should ask for non Democratic and Human Rights violations instead, just because we may not trust the GCs, how ever true or false that statement may be.

No, we must instead build a system that takes care of those concerns without violating anyone else’s Individual rights. Every individual has a responsibility to make the system of Democracy work for everyone, and if and when those individual rights are violated by others, we will have checks and balances in place to take care of the violators. We cannot start a new Unified Cyprus by violation the Individual Rights of the majority just so that the minority can have the supreme power over them just so that they can feel safe. Is this not the same a tyranny as it was in South Africa and Iraq. Is this not the same case as all the communist nations. Is this not the same case as in all the theocracy regimes all over the Muslim countries. I thought we wanted to avoid Tyranny in Cyprus, but instead we should to start with one from day one. Surely this cannot be so. This cannot be allowed to happen in my opinion and neither will it be allowed in the EU by the EU. Lets solve our concerns for both the TCs and the GCs, but not by violating each others individual rights from day one of our “New Country”.!