Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

I am very sorry if I upset some decent GCs with my attitude, but as I said many times before, I care for the living, the ones who are being suffocated with love rather than murderers graves.
Does that explain my stand point. It's not a matter of condoning it, I just don't give a shit about what happens to this man or his family, particularly his son who is of his mold.

People in RoCy are probably going to say what you just said here when Rauf Denktas passes on...

And I will join them. Because they were two of a kind. I have no time for him either. Don't believe what the patriots are writing about me and my Cypriotness. I am a Cypriot first and Turkish second. I lived those days where as most GC forumers have not. I was shot at by the eoka and I was only a child. Something I will never forget.

[Malapapa]

Via the AP which you rejected,

I didn't vote. I wasn't entitled to, nor were many thousands of Cypriots living outside Cyprus who had more right to vote than people arbitrarily given citizenship by the regime in the north. Yes, the Annan plan was rejected, by the overwhelming majority of Cypriots, on the island or off it, whether they voted or didn't. Including me. Let it go.

so what are you saying they were right to support the AP?

If you throw a drowning man a rope, he will grab it. What's your point?

What else can you say about TCs and their struggle, show us how unbiased you really are.

I'm not here to represent one community's struggle. That would be biased, and divisive. Or is that what you want?

[Viewpoint]

The exchange between Piratis and Viewpoint illustrates once again why we are never going to find an agreed solution...Stripped down Piratis is saying "You were the aggressors in 1571 and ever since...GCs has suffered more and for longer than the TCs,so dont look for any sympathy or understanding from us.It is majority rule or nothing!"And VP is saying "You will always blame us for the original sin,will never appreciate our pain and sufering,so we cannot ever trust you...It is partition of nothing..." Never the twine shall meet!!! or whatever the saying is...

Now do you understand Bir why we cannot agree a solution the chasm is just to wide and the midset is still the same, why force a marriage when the only real structure that has brought a peaceful exsistence to this island has been the intervention of 1974....the GCs continue to prove some people were correct.

It is arguable that the 1974 invasion/intervention has brought "peaceful existence" on the island...True not many people have been killed,but there are more ways to die than at the end of a bullet...As far as I am concerned the aftermath of 1974 has been nothing but a slow suffocating death for the TC community as a whole,squeezed between the RoC and Turkey...sometimes I think a quick and painless death is preferrable to this,and I give it to you that it was definitely on the cards. No one knows what would have happened to the TCs had Turkey not come in,but given the hatred-charged atmosphere of the times,anything was possible...I said many times,and will keep on saying this :Unless the GCs come to terms and accept their part of the pain and suffering inflicted on the TCs between 1963-74,there is little chance the average TC would ever trust the GCs...And as someone who lived in Cyprus between 1951 and 69,I would be the last one to blame them...Personally I have moved on and truly believe we are in no danger now from our GC compatriots. But I respect the opinion of people like yourself who require more then nice words about the blessings of democray and human rights to give up what you consider considerable advantages brought about by the trnc.

Thank you Bir, I think Gcs shoudl heed what you are saying as you are spot on, TCs will not closer to TCs as they do not trust and never will aslong as people like Piratis and Kikapu keep screaming text book democracy and human rights for all, which means nothing because the important issue is who is going to administer those principles, we want an effective say in our future where we will not be pushed to one side like in the past, the GCs are adamant in not wanting to give us what we want to address our concerns and this only fuel suspician as to their real motives not allowing us to start feeling an injection of trust...this forum is a great example of why wecannot find a solution the chasm is to wide and the majority of TCs living in the TRNC are just not will like you prepared to take a leap of faith into the laps of their "GC Compatriots".

[Malapapa]

Me Lazy? have you seen how many post I've done in less than a year.
The description I am referring to is "We are all going back to our houses", which is prevalent in 75% of the population, well at least it was in 2004. You may well find that it may be reversed in the next vote.

Wouldn't it be great if all Cypriots could go back to their houses? Of course, this won't happen. Time moves on. What can't be changed is their rights to their properties, and their right to decide for themselves what happens to them. I don't see this insistence as a "mindset" on a par with revelling in the desecration of a grave, as your "average TC" does.

Regarding the grave desecration, I am totally against them,

So you're not an "average TC" like Viewpoint.

however as this man I equate to Hitler but to a lesser degree and as I had no time for him when he was alive, I simply cannot be a hypocrite and pretend to care what happened to his grave. I do not. I do not care for anybody who went around in the sixties ordering killing of innocent civilians or the ones who actually did the deed.
I am very sorry if I upset some decent GCs with my attitude, but as I said many times before, I care for the living, the ones who are being suffocated with love rather than murderers graves.
Does that explain my stand point. It's not a matter of condoning it, I just don't give a shit about what happens to this man or his family, particularly his son who is of his mold.

Fine But that's not what we're talking about.

[Piratis]

The exchange between Piratis and Viewpoint illustrates once again why we are never going to find an agreed solution...Stripped down Piratis is saying "You were the aggressors in 1571 and ever since...GCs has suffered more and for longer than the TCs,so dont look for any sympathy or understanding from us.It is majority rule or nothing!"And VP is saying "You will always blame us for the original sin,will never appreciate our pain and sufering,so we cannot ever trust you...It is partition of nothing..." Never the twine shall meet!!! or whatever the saying is...

And stripped down what you are saying is: "Bent over and let the Turks violate your human and democratic rights yet again" you call this "sympathy and understanding" and you think that it is the "solution" of the Cyprus Problem.

Also you got wrong what I am saying. For me what happened in the past is important only for factual reasons and I talk about the past only when somebody tries to falsify our history in order to excuse yet more crimes against us. On the contrary, I do not support that even a single of TCs human rights should be violated, regardless of what they did to us in the past and they continue doing against us as we speak. Unfortunately you miss this point.

What happened in the past is important,Piratis,but not only for factual reasons...It is also important for our undestanding now of why the TCs cannot bring themselves to trust the GCs...I know that you and plenty of others here,are finding it extremely difficult to even acknowledge that the TCs had a terrible time during the 63-74 period,and not so good time before that during the 50s...Your attitude seems to be: nobody asked you to come to Cyprus in 1571,so you deserve all you've got...Blaming the TCs today for the Ottoman capture of Cyprus over 500 years ago is absurd to say the least...That is what empires did those days..They invaded and captured all they could...Nobody asked my ancestors back in those days if they wanted to move to Cyprus. They came either as soldiers,or as forcefully expatriated settlers...Over the centuries they mixed and matched with the original inhabitants and evolved into the Cypriots they are today...So please stop harping on about 1571,and try to focus on the events/facts of 1945-74...See if you can manage to come up with one thing that the GCs could ahve done differently to avoid the catastrophy which engulfed our beautiful motherland... The key to the TC mindset represented by Viewpoint is there...By refusing to see it you are not helping find a solution most people might be happy to live with...

Bir, you used to be objective, unfortunately not anymore.

You say that TC can not trust the GCs because of what happened in the past. Do you think that based on what happened in the past the GCs can trust the TCs?

We don't even need to go to the Ottoman rule which lasted until 1878 (1571 was just the begging), although it was not that long ago as you claim, my great grandparents were alive back then. I don't understand why you want to start history in 1945, not even my parents were alive at that time, and how 1945 is relevant but a few decades earlier (1878) is not. Don't forget that the people who were alive in 1945 either suffered themselves during Ottoman rule, or their parents had suffered during Ottoman rule. If TCs today can claim that they can not trust GCs due to events that happened in the 50s and the 60s, even though most of them were not even born back then, then surely the same excuse can be given to the GCs in the 40s or 50s, since themselves or their parents had suffered under Turkish rule. History is a chain of events. One part of the chain is always affected by the one before it. If we assume that the previous step is relevant, then so is the one before it and so on and so forth.

But I will go along with your request and start history in 1945. Do you think that TCs didn't commit crimes since 1945? Didn't they collaborate with the colonialists in the 50s? Didn't the form TMT and started to kill innocent GCs starting the inter-communal conflict? Didn't they collaborate with the Turkish army killing innocent GCs in 1974? And since then and until today, don't they illegally occupy our lands, selling them to foreigners and are quick to shoot or beat to death innocent unarmed GCs who demonstrate against their crimes?

I think the obvious answer is that GCs can not trust the TCs either.

So now answer this question: If a GC said that he can not trust the TCs and for this reason the solution of the Cyprus Problem should be the removal of TCs from Cyprus, in the same way that the Germans were removed from Czechoslovakia after WWII in order to remove from Germany the excuse of invading Czechoslovakia again in order to "protect" their minority, would you find the argument of this GC reasonable?

I am sure you would not Bir. And this is why I said that you are not objective any more. You find reasonable the "argument" of the extremist TCs who use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to ethnically cleanse us and violate our human rights, but surely you would not support an equivalent position from a GC that would use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to support the ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against TCs.

What I support is that the past should not be used as an excuse for crimes and human rights violations. You should not be punished for what your ancestors have done against mine, and I should not be punished for what my ancestors have done against yours. I am even willing to forgive the crimes that are committed against us today. Excusing more human rights violations against Cypriots based on some one sided view of the past is not a solution, but on the contrary is the recipe for perpetuating the Cyprus Problem and creating more division, hate and conflicts.

But if YOU (and I emphasize that) want to go to the past in order to appropriate blame and excuse yet more human rights violations, then I have every right to present the whole historical truth so at least the blame appropriation (which you want) will be done correctly.

[Oracle]

I am very sorry if I upset some decent GCs with my attitude, but as I said many times before, I care for the living, the ones who are being suffocated with love rather than murderers graves.
Does that explain my stand point. It's not a matter of condoning it, I just don't give a shit about what happens to this man or his family, particularly his son who is of his mold.

People in RoCy are probably going to say what you just said here when Rauf Denktas passes on...

And I will join them. Because they were two of a kind. I have no time for him either. Don't believe what the patriots are writing about me and my Cypriotness. I am a Cypriot first and Turkish second. I lived those days where as most GC forumers have not. I was shot at by the eoka and I was only a child. Something I will never forget.

The beginnings of another fictional tale ....

[Viewpoint]

Via the AP which you rejected,

I didn't vote. I wasn't entitled to, nor were many thousands of Cypriots living outside Cyprus who had more right to vote than people arbitrarily given citizenship by the regime in the north. Yes, the Annan plan was rejected, by the overwhelming majority of Cypriots, on the island or off it, whether they voted or didn't. Including me. Let it go.

so what are you saying they were right to support the AP?

If you throw a drowning man a rope, he will grab it. What's your point?

What else can you say about TCs and their struggle, show us how unbiased you really are.

I'm not here to represent one community's struggle. That would be biased, and divisive. Or is that what you want?

All you do is support one side so why not show you are not biased and state what you support about the TCs plight for their rights.

[Viewpoint]

The exchange between Piratis and Viewpoint illustrates once again why we are never going to find an agreed solution...Stripped down Piratis is saying "You were the aggressors in 1571 and ever since...GCs has suffered more and for longer than the TCs,so dont look for any sympathy or understanding from us.It is majority rule or nothing!"And VP is saying "You will always blame us for the original sin,will never appreciate our pain and sufering,so we cannot ever trust you...It is partition of nothing..." Never the twine shall meet!!! or whatever the saying is...

And stripped down what you are saying is: "Bent over and let the Turks violate your human and democratic rights yet again" you call this "sympathy and understanding" and you think that it is the "solution" of the Cyprus Problem.

Also you got wrong what I am saying. For me what happened in the past is important only for factual reasons and I talk about the past only when somebody tries to falsify our history in order to excuse yet more crimes against us. On the contrary, I do not support that even a single of TCs human rights should be violated, regardless of what they did to us in the past and they continue doing against us as we speak. Unfortunately you miss this point.

What happened in the past is important,Piratis,but not only for factual reasons...It is also important for our undestanding now of why the TCs cannot bring themselves to trust the GCs...I know that you and plenty of others here,are finding it extremely difficult to even acknowledge that the TCs had a terrible time during the 63-74 period,and not so good time before that during the 50s...Your attitude seems to be: nobody asked you to come to Cyprus in 1571,so you deserve all you've got...Blaming the TCs today for the Ottoman capture of Cyprus over 500 years ago is absurd to say the least...That is what empires did those days..They invaded and captured all they could...Nobody asked my ancestors back in those days if they wanted to move to Cyprus. They came either as soldiers,or as forcefully expatriated settlers...Over the centuries they mixed and matched with the original inhabitants and evolved into the Cypriots they are today...So please stop harping on about 1571,and try to focus on the events/facts of 1945-74...See if you can manage to come up with one thing that the GCs could ahve done differently to avoid the catastrophy which engulfed our beautiful motherland... The key to the TC mindset represented by Viewpoint is there...By refusing to see it you are not helping find a solution most people might be happy to live with...

Bir, you used to be objective, unfortunately not anymore.

You say that TC can not trust the GCs because of what happened in the past. Do you think that based on what happened in the past the GCs can trust the TCs?

We don't even need to go to the Ottoman rule which lasted until 1878 (1571 was just the begging), although it was not that long ago as you claim, my great grandparents were alive back then. I don't understand why you want to start history in 1945, not even my parents were alive at that time, and how 1945 is relevant but a few decades earlier (1878) is not. Don't forget that the people who were alive in 1945 either suffered themselves during Ottoman rule, or their parents had suffered during Ottoman rule. If TCs today can claim that they can not trust GCs due to events that happened in the 50s and the 60s, even though most of them were not even born back then, then surely the same excuse can be given to the GCs in the 40s or 50s, since themselves or their parents had suffered under Turkish rule. History is a chain of events. One part of the chain is always affected by the one before it. If we assume that the previous step is relevant, then so is the one before it and so on and so forth.

But I will go along with your request and start history in 1945. Do you think that TCs didn't commit crimes since 1945? Didn't they collaborate with the colonialists in the 50s? Didn't the form TMT and started to kill innocent GCs starting the inter-communal conflict? Didn't they collaborate with the Turkish army killing innocent GCs in 1974? And since then and until today, don't they illegally occupy our lands, selling them to foreigners and are quick to shoot or beat to death innocent unarmed GCs who demonstrate against their crimes?

I think the obvious answer is that GCs can not trust the TCs either.

So now answer this question: If a GC said that he can not trust the TCs and for this reason the solution of the Cyprus Problem should be the removal of TCs from Cyprus, in the same way that the Germans were removed from Czechoslovakia after WWII in order to remove from Germany the excuse of invading Czechoslovakia again in order to "protect" their minority, would you find the argument of this GC reasonable?

I am sure you would not Bir. And this is why I said that you are not objective any more. You find reasonable the "argument" of the extremist TCs who use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to ethnically cleanse us and violate our human rights, but surely you would not support an equivalent position from a GC that would use the past and the mistrust as an excuse to support the ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against TCs.

What I support is that the past should not be used as an excuse for crimes and human rights violations. You should not be punished for what your ancestors have done against mine, and I should not be punished for what my ancestors have done against yours. I am even willing to forgive the crimes that are committed against us today. Excusing more human rights violations against Cypriots based on some one sided view of the past is not a solution, but on the contrary is the recipe for perpetuating the Cyprus Problem and creating more division, hate and conflicts.

But if YOU (and I emphasize that) want to go to the past in order to appropriate blame and excuse yet more human rights violations, then I have every right to present the whole historical truth so at least the blame appropriation (which you want) will be done correctly.

You still dont get it, for what ever reasons you may have you do not have to trust TCs we are not asking you to trust us, but you demand we trust you...there is a big difference, you seem to feel that because you feel a certain way and that allows you to trust us that we have to do the same, it just dont work that way when will you realize this fact. We will never trust GCs until we see concrete developments or a solution where the structure will allow to trust not just GC but the system that will automatically correct any deviences.

[Expatkiwi]

The beginnings of another fictional tale ....

Oracle, This is the statement of an eyewitness; something that both Boomerang and Sotos have been screaming at me about. If you wish to refute it, then I'll have to use the examples from the aforementoned forum members and ask you for something to back up that statement.

[Oracle]

The beginnings of another fictional tale ....

Oracle, This is the statement of an eyewitness; something that both Boomerang and Sotos have been screaming at me about. If you wish to refute it, then I'll have to use the examples from the aforementoned forum members and ask you for something to back up that statement.

Nope it's not. YFred is a notorious and consistent liar. He previously said he was born in 1958. Shortly after, EOKA were disbanded. So we now have the "eye-witness" account of a TWO year old YFred as credible evidence, huh?

Expat ... your capacity for evaluating facts is non-existent and you come across as a pathetic attention seeking toddler with arrested development. I suggest you give yourself (and us) a break as you are clearly unconscious to anything we say. It's like shouting in a vacuum trying to exchange with you. You have made it a pointless exercise as you are either enormously incapacitated in the thinking department, or paid to pour out rubbish.