Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Welcome back Bir

The voice of the reason is the one which always supports universal principles such as human rights and democracy. If such principles were allowed in Cyprus then there wouldn't be any problems to begin with, neither any EOKA or TMT would exist. The Cypriot people would be able to peacefully and democratically decide about their own island. The day that the Cyprus Problem will be solved will be the day that those universal principles are allowed to Cyprus.

Specific foreigners didn't want to allow these universal principles to prevail in Cyprus because they wanted to continue having control over Cyprus instead of allowing this control to the Cypriot people. It is a fact that those foreigners did use some extremist groups within Cypriots in order to destabilize Cyprus and created problems (TMT - EOKA B). It is also a fact that those foreigners continue to spend a lot of money today in their effort to have an outcome that would continue to serve their interests instead of the interests of the Cypriot people.

Sorry Bir, but it is naive to say that there are no traitors. You can find such traitors in our past and you can find them in our present as well. The way those foreigners channel their funds change, the recipients change, but what is always constant is the willingness by some minorities within the Cypriot society to accept that money and promote the interests of those foreigners instead of the interests of the Cypriot people.

Human rights (which includes the right for property) and democracy are the bare minimum of what a result should have in order to be classified as a solution. It is deplorable of how easily some people in here brush away these most basic human rights. If they are not traitors then the only other thing they can be is stupid.

Thanks for the welcome,Piratis..It is good to be back..

Nice to have you back Bir. We might disagree on some things but I know that we share the same underlying principles.

The voice of reason I am talking about is he one which whispers "when there are historical emnity,conflict,bitterness and mistrust between people,it is essential to address those isues first,before you can find a compromise solution to your problem"!!!

Enmity, conflict etc were not things that were created out of thin air Bir. Those things were created due to a cause. A solution is the one which addresses the cause of the problem. If the source of the problem is not removed then not only the problems we currently have can not be solved but new ones will probably be created.

Full democracy and human rights are admirable notions,but what is the use of pushing them if there is little chance of success,at this stage of our developping cooperation and maturity???

The use is that they are the bare minimum requirements for a permanent solution. What is the point of changing one problematic status to another, possibly even worst, status?

If a solution is not feasible today does this means that we should create more problems instead?

Given our sorry past,there is no way we will go from where we are to a full political democracy in our lifetime..So what is the next best thing? What is realistically achievable???Those are the questions people like Bananiot keep raising. They do not deserve to be branded traitors for stating the obvious...There is a big difference between a traitor and a true patriot,one who would tell you your wrongs without fear or favour,in order to advance the just cause of his people...It is easy to close your eyes and ears to the realities,historical goings on,and parrot your love for your country...Much more difficult to criticise your people in order to warn them of further calamity...People who choose the second part should not be demonised.They should be respected,admired and appreciated...

I don't know what is the next best thing after human rights Bir. Animal rights maybe? For me Human rights are the bare minimum and every human being on the plant has right for them. Nobody has the right to tell us that we can not even have our human rights and therefore we have to choose some "next best thing".

I also want to let you know that democracy is something we already have. Turkey illegally occupies 1/3rd of our land, violates our human rights, but democracy is something she didn't manage to take from us.

Also, while Turkey can illegally occupy 1/3rd of our country, our rights over the occupied territory are fully recognized. This is why we can resort to the ECHR, ECJ etc and win those cases.

With what you call "the next best thing", not only we would give up the democracy we have, but we would also give up our Human rights.

Nobody reasonable would consider such thing as a step in the right direction. It is a step backward, that not only removes from us our democratic rights and legalizes the human rights violations against us, not only it officially divides Cyprus into "Greek" and "Turkish", but also creates a fertile ground for even more enmity, conflicts and problems. That is not the kind of environment I want to raise my children.

As a community we made a lot of compromises Bir. We accepted that Cyprus will not be united with Greece, although we had every right for this. We can accept for the TCs to have more rights than any other equivalently sized ethnic group in any other country (their language as an official language, guaranteed proportional representation at all levels, veto power for the change of constitution, internal autonomy over areas where they are historically the majority etc.) But asking from us to even give up our human and democratic rights is going way too far, so far that the result of such arrangement can not possibly be called a "solution".

The fact of the matter Piratis is this: as you can see from every post by VP,and he is truly the representative of the average TC,most TCs are not prepared to put their future in the noble notions of democracy and human rights...They need real and tangible protection,at least to start with,to come to the democracy party...

If you keep ignoring this,and reduce everything to a refusal to grant you your democratic and human rights,totally wiping out the events of 1955-74,we will not find a solution...Or rather the status quo will be the permanent solution...In which case all Cypriots will lose forever their most fundamental human right: to live in peace and harmony in their country of birth,their homeland..Because partition will set in concrete the bitterness and emnity between the two communities...Are you prepared to sacrifice this for the sake of sticking to your principles of democracy and human rights as you, and only you, define them???Democracy could easily turn into tyranny of the majority,and human rights might not be worth the paper they are written on in some places...This is the fear of the average TC...If you refuse to acknowledge it as legitimate ,given our past,then you have no right to expect the TCs to trust you...I hope you can see my point,coming from someone who personally believes that he is in no danger from any GC except perhaps the odd fanatical lunatic,who might believe that any good TC is a dead TC...

We need protection more than TCs do, and still we do not demand that our protection should come at the expense of the human rights of TCs. Turkey keeps using the TCs on the island as an excuse to serve her own interests on the expense of our rights. We could also say that the ethnic cleansing and human rights violations against the TCs were required for our protection, and claim that the "solution" would require the removal of the TCs from Cyprus, similar to the way that the German minority was removed from Czechoslovakia after WWII in order to remove from Germany the excuse of invading that country again with the excuse of "protecting" their minority. But we do not have such kind of demands because we do not believe that ethnic cleansing and human rights violations can be part of anything which is called a "solution".

VP and his kind are trying to excuse their usual aim for partition, an aim which was created before the conflict between the two communities. Their demands have nothing to do with their "protection" and everything to do with legalizing partition and having gains on our expense. This fact can be seen most easily in the Turkish demands for the land distribution. The 18% of TCs demanding close to 30% of land and 50% of the coast line of Cyprus. How can such demands have anything to do with their "protection"? Only somebody who is very naive would believe such lame excuses.

I didn't define neither Human Rights nor Democracy. The Human Rights, which are universal for all humans, are defined by the UN:
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

And a good definition of democracy can be found in the website of the US government (which I didn't write either):

All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic: No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities--whether ethnic, religious, or political, or simply the losers in the debate over a piece of controversial legislation. The rights of minorities do not depend upon the goodwill of the majority and cannot be eliminated by majority vote. The rights of minorities are protected because democratic laws and institutions protect the rights of all citizens.

http://usinfo.org/mirror/usinfo.state.g ... hatdm2.htm

So democracy is not just majority rule. Majority rule is one of the required elements of all democracies, but it is not the only one. Democracy also comes with "individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities".

And of course what I support is a true democracy, not regimes like those in Turkey. Your claim that democracy can turn into tyranny and therefore we should not allow democracy, is equivalent to killing an innocent person, depriving him of his right for life, with the excuse that he could turn into a mass murderer. You can't deprive the basic rights of people with such hypothetical assumptions Bir!!

Furthermore I have no problem with adopting additional measures that would be truly aimed to guarantee that the TCs will get the 100% of their human rights and as a community they will get their fair proportional share at all levels. Such measures can be things like Turkish as an official language of Cyprus, Islam to be treated by the government at the same level as Christianity, TCs to be guaranteed proportional representation at all levels, TCs to have veto power over changes in the constitution etc. And if you think that the GCs in an EU Cyprus are so evil that will try to brake all those fair and just things by force, then I wouldn't mind an international force in Cyprus that will guarantee that Cyprus remains demilitarized and that all aspects of our constitution are observed.

The 18% of TCs taking 30% of land and 50% of coastline, or violating the basic human rights of GCs by depriving us from our property rights and discriminating against us by reducing the effect of our votes, are not things that "protect" the TCs, but unfair gains of TCs on our expense, something that can only result in more hate and conflicts.

Furthermore what TCs demand now is equivalent of legitimizing partition and officially splitting Cyprus into "Greek" and "Turkish" parts. How is such de jure partition any better than the de facto partition we have today?

[YFred]

Welcome back Bir

The voice of the reason is the one which always supports universal principles such as human rights and democracy. If such principles were allowed in Cyprus then there wouldn't be any problems to begin with, neither any EOKA or TMT would exist. The Cypriot people would be able to peacefully and democratically decide about their own island. The day that the Cyprus Problem will be solved will be the day that those universal principles are allowed to Cyprus.

Specific foreigners didn't want to allow these universal principles to prevail in Cyprus because they wanted to continue having control over Cyprus instead of allowing this control to the Cypriot people. It is a fact that those foreigners did use some extremist groups within Cypriots in order to destabilize Cyprus and created problems (TMT - EOKA B). It is also a fact that those foreigners continue to spend a lot of money today in their effort to have an outcome that would continue to serve their interests instead of the interests of the Cypriot people.

Sorry Bir, but it is naive to say that there are no traitors. You can find such traitors in our past and you can find them in our present as well. The way those foreigners channel their funds change, the recipients change, but what is always constant is the willingness by some minorities within the Cypriot society to accept that money and promote the interests of those foreigners instead of the interests of the Cypriot people.

Human rights (which includes the right for property) and democracy are the bare minimum of what a result should have in order to be classified as a solution. It is deplorable of how easily some people in here brush away these most basic human rights. If they are not traitors then the only other thing they can be is stupid.

Thanks for the welcome,Piratis..It is good to be back..

Nice to have you back Bir. We might disagree on some things but I know that we share the same underlying principles.

The voice of reason I am talking about is he one which whispers "when there are historical emnity,conflict,bitterness and mistrust between people,it is essential to address those isues first,before you can find a compromise solution to your problem"!!!

Enmity, conflict etc were not things that were created out of thin air Bir. Those things were created due to a cause. A solution is the one which addresses the cause of the problem. If the source of the problem is not removed then not only the problems we currently have can not be solved but new ones will probably be created.

Full democracy and human rights are admirable notions,but what is the use of pushing them if there is little chance of success,at this stage of our developping cooperation and maturity???

The use is that they are the bare minimum requirements for a permanent solution. What is the point of changing one problematic status to another, possibly even worst, status?

If a solution is not feasible today does this means that we should create more problems instead?

Given our sorry past,there is no way we will go from where we are to a full political democracy in our lifetime..So what is the next best thing? What is realistically achievable???Those are the questions people like Bananiot keep raising. They do not deserve to be branded traitors for stating the obvious...There is a big difference between a traitor and a true patriot,one who would tell you your wrongs without fear or favour,in order to advance the just cause of his people...It is easy to close your eyes and ears to the realities,historical goings on,and parrot your love for your country...Much more difficult to criticise your people in order to warn them of further calamity...People who choose the second part should not be demonised.They should be respected,admired and appreciated...

I don't know what is the next best thing after human rights Bir. Animal rights maybe? For me Human rights are the bare minimum and every human being on the plant has right for them. Nobody has the right to tell us that we can not even have our human rights and therefore we have to choose some "next best thing".

I also want to let you know that democracy is something we already have. Turkey illegally occupies 1/3rd of our land, violates our human rights, but democracy is something she didn't manage to take from us.

Also, while Turkey can illegally occupy 1/3rd of our country, our rights over the occupied territory are fully recognized. This is why we can resort to the ECHR, ECJ etc and win those cases.

With what you call "the next best thing", not only we would give up the democracy we have, but we would also give up our Human rights.

Nobody reasonable would consider such thing as a step in the right direction. It is a step backward, that not only removes from us our democratic rights and legalizes the human rights violations against us, not only it officially divides Cyprus into "Greek" and "Turkish", but also creates a fertile ground for even more enmity, conflicts and problems. That is not the kind of environment I want to raise my children.

As a community we made a lot of compromises Bir. We accepted that Cyprus will not be united with Greece, although we had every right for this. We can accept for the TCs to have more rights than any other equivalently sized ethnic group in any other country (their language as an official language, guaranteed proportional representation at all levels, veto power for the change of constitution, internal autonomy over areas where they are historically the majority etc.) But asking from us to even give up our human and democratic rights is going way too far, so far that the result of such arrangement can not possibly be called a "solution".

The fact of the matter Piratis is this: as you can see from every post by VP,and he is truly the representative of the average TC,most TCs are not prepared to put their future in the noble notions of democracy and human rights...They need real and tangible protection,at least to start with,to come to the democracy party...If you keep ignoring this,and reduce everything to a refusal to grant you your democratic and human rights,totally wiping out the events of 1955-74,we will not find a solution...Or rather the status quo will be the permanent solution...In which case all Cypriots will lose forever their most fundamental human right: to live in peace and harmony in their country of birth,their homeland..Because partition will set in concrete the bitterness and emnity between the two communities...Are you prepared to sacrifice this for the sake of sticking to your principles of democracy and human rights as you, and only you, define them???Democracy could easily turn into tyranny of the majority,and human rights might not be worth the paper they are written on in some places...This is the fear of the average TC...If you refuse to acknowledge it as legitimate ,given our past,then you have no right to expect the TCs to trust you...I hope you can see my point,coming from someone who personally believes that he is in no danger from any GC except perhaps the odd fanatical lunatic,who might believe that any good TC is a dead TC...

I wait in anticipation for the reply of Kickapoo to the reply given by Bir to Piratis. Don't take too long about it will you old boklu yero.

Welcome back to the forum Bir.

[Piratis]

Bir nice to have you back but I beg to differ with you...we complain the system sucked big time when imposed on us so the next best thing is to make sure second time around it's fixed once and for all...half way measures will lead to more problems rendering any half hearted agreement useless...

Thanks,boomers...but the question is,given what you said, would it be right to impose a solution of then TCs,democratic or otherwise,against their will???? How long will that last??? The key is in compromise...Take stock of our past troubles,learn our lessons,and find a solution which might not be the ideal,but one that most people will be happy to live with...It is the only realistic approach...

GCs will never learn they still think Cyprus is Greek and we should go back to Turkey.

Hello,VP...The solution is simple...Those who think Cyprus is Greek should go back to Greece,and those who think Cyprus is Turkish should go back to Turkey...The rest of us should be able to live in Cyprus as Cypriots,not giving a second thought to our ethnic bakgrounds...I am dreaming I know,but wouldnt that be the most fair solution???

So you are happy to place your safety and future in the hands of the GCs like Piratis Kikapu Sotos Oracle and crowd?

Personally speaking,yes,I think i would be perfectly safe with all these people you named except one...I am not sure about that Kikapu... He would probably cause my death from all that molohiya and kolokas he will feed me...

VP, if the only people left in Cyprus are those who consider themselves Cypriots above all else,why not??? Why should we be in danger from other True Cypriots...

But I do get your point..And I do know and understand that given our bloody past most TCs are not prepared to trust the GCs at this point...not until some real steps are taken towards promoting understanding,respect, and reconciliation...of which there has been very little in the past 35 years...From both sides that is...

Thank god for your last paragraph how can you expects TCs to capitulate to GCs after our bloody past. you appear to be taken in by the 'True Cypriots' product the GCs peddle. where was this in 1963 when TC women were being molested at GC check points or TCs were kidnapped and killed only to be found 35 years later down a well. This we are all Cypriots crap is just to little to late. it needs time to mature in an atmosphere and trust and stability which is not currently the case and allowing for the mindset of GCs on this forum it will never be.

You may be prepared to hand your future on a plate to GCs but the majority of TCs who reside on the island are not. Unless these people show real signs of change and compromise then the future will be pretty what it is today. You know TCs well if you give them 1 they will give you 5 but unfortunately GCs do not have the capacity to understand this philosophy.

You again forget that the inter-commuanal conflict was started by you in the 50s. It is you who started to kill innocent Greek Cypriot and demanded that we should be annihilated from half of our island. So don't pretend to be the innocent victim when in fact you are the aggressor.

We have made a ton of compromises from our rights in our effort to find a solution. You made NONE. Giving back a small part of what is not yours to begin with and which you illegally occupy is not called a "compromise" by any stretch of imagination. We have already seen your "philosophy" very well.

[Piratis]

So Piratis, you are saying that it was the traitors (you love this word, you bash patriot, you cannot live in a world without traitors, because you would have no one to blame for your shortcomings) that prevented us from scoring a huge victory over the foreign imperialists and of course uniting Cyprus with Greece.

I say that you live on cloud nine and that it was the myopic view of the lawyers, priests and Grivas's at the time (all bash patriots) who started a form of a struggle that would inevitably lead to disaster as it did not took into consideration the forces involved in our area at the time. Damn it, even Greece was against it (we breath with two lungs, one English and the other American) and you have the audacity to repeat time and time again that it was the traitors like me (I was 5 at the time) that betrayed the struggle and not the miscalculations of the strategy needed regarding the form of struggle that would stand a more realistic chance to succeed.

I put it to you that if you are looking for traitor you do not need to look very far. They are in the soul of the bash patriots who continue until today to sell coal for gold, thinking that they will always be in a position to deceive the people with their bash patriotic rhetoric.

If the Imperialists could achieve their aims without traitors, then why did they use such traitors? Why for example didn't they bring more of their own troops to fight against our revolution and they instead hired TCs to do their dirty job?

If you prefer to call you idiot instead of traitor, then fine. I gave you this option before and you can take it if you believe it is more appropriate.

The fact is that we asked for nothing less and nothing more than what was our rights. For many decades we were asking to be allowed to peacefully and freely decide the destiny of our own island and this undisputed right was denied to us by the Imperialists. Revolution was our last resort, and if it wasn't for traitors/idiots like you, then we would have succeeded.

Revolution was what you got but not from GCs a large portion of the popultion who did not want to become part of Greece, its a 2 way street but you have yet to acknowledge that when democracy is used to the disadvantage of a large number of people they will do everything within their power to fight back and survive which is exactly what we did.

In what way would union with Greece disadvantage your community in Cyprus when compared to say the Greek community in Turkey?

Cyprus instead of being part of the Ottoman or British empires against the will of Cypriot people and with Cypriots being mere subjects of those empires imposed on us, it would be part of the Greek Republic, which was the wish of the vast majority of Cypriots, and all Cypriots would be equal Greek citizens, not subjects of some empire. None of your human rights would be violated if Cyprus was united with Greece.

How was it fine for you to impose the Ottoman empire on us for 300+ years, but not OK for the Cypriot people to democratically choose to be part of the Greek Republic?

Still we made a compromise to our RIGHT and accepted that Cyprus will not be part of Greece. Today there are very few Cypriots that support that such thing should happen. And although we made this and many other compromises, you made none and you are still trying to violate our human and democratic rights in order to create some "Turkish State" over territory which historically, for 1000s of years, had a GC majority.

[YFred]

So Piratis, you are saying that it was the traitors (you love this word, you bash patriot, you cannot live in a world without traitors, because you would have no one to blame for your shortcomings) that prevented us from scoring a huge victory over the foreign imperialists and of course uniting Cyprus with Greece.

I say that you live on cloud nine and that it was the myopic view of the lawyers, priests and Grivas's at the time (all bash patriots) who started a form of a struggle that would inevitably lead to disaster as it did not took into consideration the forces involved in our area at the time. Damn it, even Greece was against it (we breath with two lungs, one English and the other American) and you have the audacity to repeat time and time again that it was the traitors like me (I was 5 at the time) that betrayed the struggle and not the miscalculations of the strategy needed regarding the form of struggle that would stand a more realistic chance to succeed.

I put it to you that if you are looking for traitor you do not need to look very far. They are in the soul of the bash patriots who continue until today to sell coal for gold, thinking that they will always be in a position to deceive the people with their bash patriotic rhetoric.

If the Imperialists could achieve their aims without traitors, then why did they use such traitors? Why for example didn't they bring more of their own troops to fight against our revolution and they instead hired TCs to do their dirty job?

If you prefer to call you idiot instead of traitor, then fine. I gave you this option before and you can take it if you believe it is more appropriate.

The fact is that we asked for nothing less and nothing more than what was our rights. For many decades we were asking to be allowed to peacefully and freely decide the destiny of our own island and this undisputed right was denied to us by the Imperialists. Revolution was our last resort, and if it wasn't for traitors/idiots like you, then we would have succeeded.

Revolution was what you got but not from GCs a large portion of the popultion who did not want to become part of Greece, its a 2 way street but you have yet to acknowledge that when democracy is used to the disadvantage of a large number of people they will do everything within their power to fight back and survive which is exactly what we did.

In what way would union with Greece disadvantage your community in Cyprus when compared to say the Greek community in Turkey?

Cyprus instead of being part of the Ottoman or British empires against the will of Cypriot people and with Cypriots being mere subjects of those empires imposed on us, it would be part of the Greek Republic, which was the wish of the vast majority of Cypriots, and all Cypriots would be equal Greek citizens, not subjects of some empire. None of your human rights would be violated if Cyprus was united with Greece.

How was it fine for you to impose the Ottoman empire on us for 300+ years, but not OK for the Cypriot people to democratically choose to be part of the Greek Republic?

Still we made a compromise to our RIGHT and accepted that Cyprus will not be part of Greece. Today there are very few Cypriots that support that such thing should happen. And although we made this and many other compromises, you made none and you are still trying to violate our human and democratic rights in order to create some "Turkish State" over territory which historically, for 1000s of years, had a GC majority.

Piratis, get it into your head that TC don't care for joining with Greece under any circumstances. If you as the GC community decide to join them, take your part of the island and do it, no body can stop you. But try to force on to the TCs to do the same and see what you get.
Bloody wake up from your dreams.

[Piratis]

YFred, I already said that we made a compromise in the right to unite our own island with the rest of Greece.

The one who is dreaming is you, if you believe we will ever accept some partition deal like Annan plan that will only serve your minority and Turkey and not us.

[Viewpoint]

Bir nice to have you back but I beg to differ with you...we complain the system sucked big time when imposed on us so the next best thing is to make sure second time around it's fixed once and for all...half way measures will lead to more problems rendering any half hearted agreement useless...

Thanks,boomers...but the question is,given what you said, would it be right to impose a solution of then TCs,democratic or otherwise,against their will???? How long will that last??? The key is in compromise...Take stock of our past troubles,learn our lessons,and find a solution which might not be the ideal,but one that most people will be happy to live with...It is the only realistic approach...

GCs will never learn they still think Cyprus is Greek and we should go back to Turkey.

Hello,VP...The solution is simple...Those who think Cyprus is Greek should go back to Greece,and those who think Cyprus is Turkish should go back to Turkey...The rest of us should be able to live in Cyprus as Cypriots,not giving a second thought to our ethnic bakgrounds...I am dreaming I know,but wouldnt that be the most fair solution???

So you are happy to place your safety and future in the hands of the GCs like Piratis Kikapu Sotos Oracle and crowd?

Personally speaking,yes,I think i would be perfectly safe with all these people you named except one...I am not sure about that Kikapu... He would probably cause my death from all that molohiya and kolokas he will feed me...

VP, if the only people left in Cyprus are those who consider themselves Cypriots above all else,why not??? Why should we be in danger from other True Cypriots...

But I do get your point..And I do know and understand that given our bloody past most TCs are not prepared to trust the GCs at this point...not until some real steps are taken towards promoting understanding,respect, and reconciliation...of which there has been very little in the past 35 years...From both sides that is...

Thank god for your last paragraph how can you expects TCs to capitulate to GCs after our bloody past. you appear to be taken in by the 'True Cypriots' product the GCs peddle. where was this in 1963 when TC women were being molested at GC check points or TCs were kidnapped and killed only to be found 35 years later down a well. This we are all Cypriots crap is just to little to late. it needs time to mature in an atmosphere and trust and stability which is not currently the case and allowing for the mindset of GCs on this forum it will never be.

You may be prepared to hand your future on a plate to GCs but the majority of TCs who reside on the island are not. Unless these people show real signs of change and compromise then the future will be pretty what it is today. You know TCs well if you give them 1 they will give you 5 but unfortunately GCs do not have the capacity to understand this philosophy.

You again forget that the inter-commuanal conflict was started by you in the 50s. It is you who started to kill innocent Greek Cypriot and demanded that we should be annihilated from half of our island. So don't pretend to be the innocent victim when in fact you are the aggressor.

We have made a ton of compromises from our rights in our effort to find a solution. You made NONE. Giving back a small part of what is not yours to begin with and which you illegally occupy is not called a "compromise" by any stretch of imagination. We have already seen your "philosophy" very well.

Which came first enosis or taksim?

[YFred]

YFred, I already said that we made a compromise in the right to unite our own island with the rest of Greece.

The one who is dreaming is you, if you believe we will ever accept some partition deal like Annan plan that will only serve your minority and Turkey and not us.

Interesting that the rest of the world thought the Annan plan was unification and some of you see it as partition.
There is no hope with people like you. Either we will have a similar plan to Annan plan or it will be partition. I can only hope that when the vote happens next time Disy and Akel back it and let the GCs decide for the south. If they think like you, then partition it will be. Of course that's assuming the the TCs vote for it next time too, and I wouldn't bet on it.

[Viewpoint]

So Piratis, you are saying that it was the traitors (you love this word, you bash patriot, you cannot live in a world without traitors, because you would have no one to blame for your shortcomings) that prevented us from scoring a huge victory over the foreign imperialists and of course uniting Cyprus with Greece.

I say that you live on cloud nine and that it was the myopic view of the lawyers, priests and Grivas's at the time (all bash patriots) who started a form of a struggle that would inevitably lead to disaster as it did not took into consideration the forces involved in our area at the time. Damn it, even Greece was against it (we breath with two lungs, one English and the other American) and you have the audacity to repeat time and time again that it was the traitors like me (I was 5 at the time) that betrayed the struggle and not the miscalculations of the strategy needed regarding the form of struggle that would stand a more realistic chance to succeed.

I put it to you that if you are looking for traitor you do not need to look very far. They are in the soul of the bash patriots who continue until today to sell coal for gold, thinking that they will always be in a position to deceive the people with their bash patriotic rhetoric.

If the Imperialists could achieve their aims without traitors, then why did they use such traitors? Why for example didn't they bring more of their own troops to fight against our revolution and they instead hired TCs to do their dirty job?

If you prefer to call you idiot instead of traitor, then fine. I gave you this option before and you can take it if you believe it is more appropriate.

The fact is that we asked for nothing less and nothing more than what was our rights. For many decades we were asking to be allowed to peacefully and freely decide the destiny of our own island and this undisputed right was denied to us by the Imperialists. Revolution was our last resort, and if it wasn't for traitors/idiots like you, then we would have succeeded.

Revolution was what you got but not from GCs a large portion of the popultion who did not want to become part of Greece, its a 2 way street but you have yet to acknowledge that when democracy is used to the disadvantage of a large number of people they will do everything within their power to fight back and survive which is exactly what we did.

In what way would union with Greece disadvantage your community in Cyprus when compared to say the Greek community in Turkey?

Cyprus instead of being part of the Ottoman or British empires against the will of Cypriot people and with Cypriots being mere subjects of those empires imposed on us, it would be part of the Greek Republic, which was the wish of the vast majority of Cypriots, and all Cypriots would be equal Greek citizens, not subjects of some empire. None of your human rights would be violated if Cyprus was united with Greece.

How was it fine for you to impose the Ottoman empire on us for 300+ years, but not OK for the Cypriot people to democratically choose to be part of the Greek Republic?

Still we made a compromise to our RIGHT and accepted that Cyprus will not be part of Greece. Today there are very few Cypriots that support that such thing should happen. And although we made this and many other compromises, you made none and you are still trying to violate our human and democratic rights in order to create some "Turkish State" over territory which historically, for 1000s of years, had a GC majority.

You still have problems understanding that if the majority force a substantial part of their population into a situation such as enosis which for them is equal to death you will get a revolution and thats what happened. You brushed aside the concerns of the TCs as you do today and try to impose your will as you did in 1963 and even today during the talks, well that path will not work TCs will always fight for what they believe in even if it means assimilating to Turkey have no doubt we will do it.

You only compromised after you knew you had lost the battle and dont give me you were forced into the 1960 agreements you did it to get rid of the Brits thinking you could get rid of us later but you forgot one thing we belong here and are not going anywhere.

[Piratis]

Bir nice to have you back but I beg to differ with you...we complain the system sucked big time when imposed on us so the next best thing is to make sure second time around it's fixed once and for all...half way measures will lead to more problems rendering any half hearted agreement useless...

Thanks,boomers...but the question is,given what you said, would it be right to impose a solution of then TCs,democratic or otherwise,against their will???? How long will that last??? The key is in compromise...Take stock of our past troubles,learn our lessons,and find a solution which might not be the ideal,but one that most people will be happy to live with...It is the only realistic approach...

GCs will never learn they still think Cyprus is Greek and we should go back to Turkey.

Hello,VP...The solution is simple...Those who think Cyprus is Greek should go back to Greece,and those who think Cyprus is Turkish should go back to Turkey...The rest of us should be able to live in Cyprus as Cypriots,not giving a second thought to our ethnic bakgrounds...I am dreaming I know,but wouldnt that be the most fair solution???

So you are happy to place your safety and future in the hands of the GCs like Piratis Kikapu Sotos Oracle and crowd?

Personally speaking,yes,I think i would be perfectly safe with all these people you named except one...I am not sure about that Kikapu... He would probably cause my death from all that molohiya and kolokas he will feed me...

VP, if the only people left in Cyprus are those who consider themselves Cypriots above all else,why not??? Why should we be in danger from other True Cypriots...

But I do get your point..And I do know and understand that given our bloody past most TCs are not prepared to trust the GCs at this point...not until some real steps are taken towards promoting understanding,respect, and reconciliation...of which there has been very little in the past 35 years...From both sides that is...

Thank god for your last paragraph how can you expects TCs to capitulate to GCs after our bloody past. you appear to be taken in by the 'True Cypriots' product the GCs peddle. where was this in 1963 when TC women were being molested at GC check points or TCs were kidnapped and killed only to be found 35 years later down a well. This we are all Cypriots crap is just to little to late. it needs time to mature in an atmosphere and trust and stability which is not currently the case and allowing for the mindset of GCs on this forum it will never be.

You may be prepared to hand your future on a plate to GCs but the majority of TCs who reside on the island are not. Unless these people show real signs of change and compromise then the future will be pretty what it is today. You know TCs well if you give them 1 they will give you 5 but unfortunately GCs do not have the capacity to understand this philosophy.

You again forget that the inter-commuanal conflict was started by you in the 50s. It is you who started to kill innocent Greek Cypriot and demanded that we should be annihilated from half of our island. So don't pretend to be the innocent victim when in fact you are the aggressor.

We have made a ton of compromises from our rights in our effort to find a solution. You made NONE. Giving back a small part of what is not yours to begin with and which you illegally occupy is not called a "compromise" by any stretch of imagination. We have already seen your "philosophy" very well.

Which came first enosis or taksim?

What came first was this:

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted. Word of the massacre spread, and a few days later Mustafa took Kyrenia without having to fire a shot. Famagusta, however, resisted and put up a heroic defense that lasted from September 1570 until August 1571.

Enosis came later:

During the Greek War of Independence in 1821, the Ottoman authorities feared that Greek Cypriots would rebel again. Archbishop Kyprianos, a powerful leader who worked to improve the education of Greek Cypriot children, was accused of plotting against the government. Kyprianos, his bishops, and hundreds of priests and important laymen were arrested and summarily hanged or decapitated on July 9, 1821.

Partition aim and inter-communal conflict after: