Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Welcome back Bir

The voice of the reason is the one which always supports universal principles such as human rights and democracy. If such principles were allowed in Cyprus then there wouldn't be any problems to begin with, neither any EOKA or TMT would exist. The Cypriot people would be able to peacefully and democratically decide about their own island. The day that the Cyprus Problem will be solved will be the day that those universal principles are allowed to Cyprus.

Specific foreigners didn't want to allow these universal principles to prevail in Cyprus because they wanted to continue having control over Cyprus instead of allowing this control to the Cypriot people. It is a fact that those foreigners did use some extremist groups within Cypriots in order to destabilize Cyprus and created problems (TMT - EOKA B). It is also a fact that those foreigners continue to spend a lot of money today in their effort to have an outcome that would continue to serve their interests instead of the interests of the Cypriot people.

Sorry Bir, but it is naive to say that there are no traitors. You can find such traitors in our past and you can find them in our present as well. The way those foreigners channel their funds change, the recipients change, but what is always constant is the willingness by some minorities within the Cypriot society to accept that money and promote the interests of those foreigners instead of the interests of the Cypriot people.

Human rights (which includes the right for property) and democracy are the bare minimum of what a result should have in order to be classified as a solution. It is deplorable of how easily some people in here brush away these most basic human rights. If they are not traitors then the only other thing they can be is stupid.

Thanks for the welcome,Piratis..It is good to be back..

Nice to have you back Bir. We might disagree on some things but I know that we share the same underlying principles.

The voice of reason I am talking about is he one which whispers "when there are historical emnity,conflict,bitterness and mistrust between people,it is essential to address those isues first,before you can find a compromise solution to your problem"!!!

Enmity, conflict etc were not things that were created out of thin air Bir. Those things were created due to a cause. A solution is the one which addresses the cause of the problem. If the source of the problem is not removed then not only the problems we currently have can not be solved but new ones will probably be created.

Full democracy and human rights are admirable notions,but what is the use of pushing them if there is little chance of success,at this stage of our developping cooperation and maturity???

The use is that they are the bare minimum requirements for a permanent solution. What is the point of changing one problematic status to another, possibly even worst, status?

If a solution is not feasible today does this means that we should create more problems instead?

Given our sorry past,there is no way we will go from where we are to a full political democracy in our lifetime..So what is the next best thing? What is realistically achievable???Those are the questions people like Bananiot keep raising. They do not deserve to be branded traitors for stating the obvious...There is a big difference between a traitor and a true patriot,one who would tell you your wrongs without fear or favour,in order to advance the just cause of his people...It is easy to close your eyes and ears to the realities,historical goings on,and parrot your love for your country...Much more difficult to criticise your people in order to warn them of further calamity...People who choose the second part should not be demonised.They should be respected,admired and appreciated...

I don't know what is the next best thing after human rights Bir. Animal rights maybe? For me Human rights are the bare minimum and every human being on the plant has right for them. Nobody has the right to tell us that we can not even have our human rights and therefore we have to choose some "next best thing".

I also want to let you know that democracy is something we already have. Turkey illegally occupies 1/3rd of our land, violates our human rights, but democracy is something she didn't manage to take from us.

Also, while Turkey can illegally occupy 1/3rd of our country, our rights over the occupied territory are fully recognized. This is why we can resort to the ECHR, ECJ etc and win those cases.

With what you call "the next best thing", not only we would give up the democracy we have, but we would also give up our Human rights.

Nobody reasonable would consider such thing as a step in the right direction. It is a step backward, that not only removes from us our democratic rights and legalizes the human rights violations against us, not only it officially divides Cyprus into "Greek" and "Turkish", but also creates a fertile ground for even more enmity, conflicts and problems. That is not the kind of environment I want to raise my children.

As a community we made a lot of compromises Bir. We accepted that Cyprus will not be united with Greece, although we had every right for this. We can accept for the TCs to have more rights than any other equivalently sized ethnic group in any other country (their language as an official language, guaranteed proportional representation at all levels, veto power for the change of constitution, internal autonomy over areas where they are historically the majority etc.) But asking from us to even give up our human and democratic rights is going way too far, so far that the result of such arrangement can not possibly be called a "solution".

[Piratis]

Absolutely nothing was imposed on us. In fact we got more than we deserved for but we did not appreciate it. Even Papadopoulos admitted this at Intercollege in 2005, when he said that the London Zurich agreements were a blessing.

I am more than fed up with people blaming everybody else for our misfortunes and then complain about the so called abuse of our human rights. Let me give you another example from our recent history. EOKA, as you know, killed more Greek Cypriots than British soldiers. From 1955 to 1960 thousands of young Greek Cypriots were forced to leave their places of birth and seek the safety of foreign lands. Many went to England, USA, Australia, Canada and South Africa in order to escape the murdering fiends who eventually brought disaster to Cyprus with their relentless push for the desirable, spreading fear and pain and silencing all voices of reason.

Birkibrisli, Samuel Johnson summed it up very nicely some two hundred years ago. "Patriotism is the last resort of scoundrels" he wrote and this still holds true here in our small island which is European by name but more backward than third world countries, in many respects. Most of those who call for implementation of human rights have the word "traitor" at the tip of their tongue and use it ad nauseam. However they have been tried and found wanting, for they discovered human rights very late in life and those who have the clout to push for the implementation of even basic human rights, do not believe that they are genuine. The best service they can do to Cyprus is to keep quite and let those that historically are not burdened by criminal acts steer a path to salvation. These people are using democracy and human rights as a smoke screen to hide their hatred for the only solution that will end the suffering of Cyprus.

See you tomorrow halil! I wish Birkibrisli would be with us.

So when for decades we demanded from the foreign Imperialists to allow to us to peacefully and democratically choose the destiny of our own island, as it was our right, and those foreign Imperialists refused this right to us, it was our fault and not theirs?

The revolution of the Cypriot people against the British colonialists in 1955 was the last resort for seeking our freedom after decades of being refused our rights. This was a revolution supported by the vast majority of the Cypriot people. In Cyprus we had less Loyalists and more Patriots than what they had during the American Revolution, and yet you are trying to diminish the value of our revolution against the British Imperialists.

If it wasn't for minorities of traitors like yourself and some of your Turkish friends, who collaborated with the Imperialists (just like you do now) in order to deny from Cyprus our right for freedom and self-determination, then those Imperialists would have much more difficult time imposing their will on Cyprus. And I say imposing because that is exactly what they did. What we got in 1960 was not the result of the free will of the Cypriot people.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir nice to have you back but I beg to differ with you...we complain the system sucked big time when imposed on us so the next best thing is to make sure second time around it's fixed once and for all...half way measures will lead to more problems rendering any half hearted agreement useless...

Thanks,boomers...but the question is,given what you said, would it be right to impose a solution of then TCs,democratic or otherwise,against their will???? How long will that last??? The key is in compromise...Take stock of our past troubles,learn our lessons,and find a solution which might not be the ideal,but one that most people will be happy to live with...It is the only realistic approach...

GCs will never learn they still think Cyprus is Greek and we should go back to Turkey.

Hello,VP...The solution is simple...Those who think Cyprus is Greek should go back to Greece,and those who think Cyprus is Turkish should go back to Turkey...The rest of us should be able to live in Cyprus as Cypriots,not giving a second thought to our ethnic bakgrounds...I am dreaming I know,but wouldnt that be the most fair solution???

So you are happy to place your safety and future in the hands of the GCs like Piratis Kikapu Sotos Oracle and crowd?

Personally speaking,yes,I think i would be perfectly safe with all these people you named except one...I am not sure about that Kikapu... He would probably cause my death from all that molohiya and kolokas he will feed me...

VP, if the only people left in Cyprus are those who consider themselves Cypriots above all else,why not??? Why should we be in danger from other True Cypriots...

But I do get your point..And I do know and understand that given our bloody past most TCs are not prepared to trust the GCs at this point...not until some real steps are taken towards promoting understanding,respect, and reconciliation...of which there has been very little in the past 35 years...From both sides that is...

[BirKibrisli]

Welcome back Bir

The voice of the reason is the one which always supports universal principles such as human rights and democracy. If such principles were allowed in Cyprus then there wouldn't be any problems to begin with, neither any EOKA or TMT would exist. The Cypriot people would be able to peacefully and democratically decide about their own island. The day that the Cyprus Problem will be solved will be the day that those universal principles are allowed to Cyprus.

Specific foreigners didn't want to allow these universal principles to prevail in Cyprus because they wanted to continue having control over Cyprus instead of allowing this control to the Cypriot people. It is a fact that those foreigners did use some extremist groups within Cypriots in order to destabilize Cyprus and created problems (TMT - EOKA B). It is also a fact that those foreigners continue to spend a lot of money today in their effort to have an outcome that would continue to serve their interests instead of the interests of the Cypriot people.

Sorry Bir, but it is naive to say that there are no traitors. You can find such traitors in our past and you can find them in our present as well. The way those foreigners channel their funds change, the recipients change, but what is always constant is the willingness by some minorities within the Cypriot society to accept that money and promote the interests of those foreigners instead of the interests of the Cypriot people.

Human rights (which includes the right for property) and democracy are the bare minimum of what a result should have in order to be classified as a solution. It is deplorable of how easily some people in here brush away these most basic human rights. If they are not traitors then the only other thing they can be is stupid.

Thanks for the welcome,Piratis..It is good to be back..

Nice to have you back Bir. We might disagree on some things but I know that we share the same underlying principles.

The voice of reason I am talking about is he one which whispers "when there are historical emnity,conflict,bitterness and mistrust between people,it is essential to address those isues first,before you can find a compromise solution to your problem"!!!

Enmity, conflict etc were not things that were created out of thin air Bir. Those things were created due to a cause. A solution is the one which addresses the cause of the problem. If the source of the problem is not removed then not only the problems we currently have can not be solved but new ones will probably be created.

Full democracy and human rights are admirable notions,but what is the use of pushing them if there is little chance of success,at this stage of our developping cooperation and maturity???

The use is that they are the bare minimum requirements for a permanent solution. What is the point of changing one problematic status to another, possibly even worst, status?

If a solution is not feasible today does this means that we should create more problems instead?

Given our sorry past,there is no way we will go from where we are to a full political democracy in our lifetime..So what is the next best thing? What is realistically achievable???Those are the questions people like Bananiot keep raising. They do not deserve to be branded traitors for stating the obvious...There is a big difference between a traitor and a true patriot,one who would tell you your wrongs without fear or favour,in order to advance the just cause of his people...It is easy to close your eyes and ears to the realities,historical goings on,and parrot your love for your country...Much more difficult to criticise your people in order to warn them of further calamity...People who choose the second part should not be demonised.They should be respected,admired and appreciated...

I don't know what is the next best thing after human rights Bir. Animal rights maybe? For me Human rights are the bare minimum and every human being on the plant has right for them. Nobody has the right to tell us that we can not even have our human rights and therefore we have to choose some "next best thing".

I also want to let you know that democracy is something we already have. Turkey illegally occupies 1/3rd of our land, violates our human rights, but democracy is something she didn't manage to take from us.

Also, while Turkey can illegally occupy 1/3rd of our country, our rights over the occupied territory are fully recognized. This is why we can resort to the ECHR, ECJ etc and win those cases.

With what you call "the next best thing", not only we would give up the democracy we have, but we would also give up our Human rights.

Nobody reasonable would consider such thing as a step in the right direction. It is a step backward, that not only removes from us our democratic rights and legalizes the human rights violations against us, not only it officially divides Cyprus into "Greek" and "Turkish", but also creates a fertile ground for even more enmity, conflicts and problems. That is not the kind of environment I want to raise my children.

As a community we made a lot of compromises Bir. We accepted that Cyprus will not be united with Greece, although we had every right for this. We can accept for the TCs to have more rights than any other equivalently sized ethnic group in any other country (their language as an official language, guaranteed proportional representation at all levels, veto power for the change of constitution, internal autonomy over areas where they are historically the majority etc.) But asking from us to even give up our human and democratic rights is going way too far, so far that the result of such arrangement can not possibly be called a "solution".

The fact of the matter Piratis is this: as you can see from every post by VP,and he is truly the representative of the average TC,most TCs are not prepared to put their future in the noble notions of democracy and human rights...They need real and tangible protection,at least to start with,to come to the democracy party...If you keep ignoring this,and reduce everything to a refusal to grant you your democratic and human rights,totally wiping out the events of 1955-74,we will not find a solution...Or rather the status quo will be the permanent solution...In which case all Cypriots will lose forever their most fundamental human right: to live in peace and harmony in their country of birth,their homeland..Because partition will set in concrete the bitterness and emnity between the two communities...Are you prepared to sacrifice this for the sake of sticking to your principles of democracy and human rights as you, and only you, define them???Democracy could easily turn into tyranny of the majority,and human rights might not be worth the paper they are written on in some places...This is the fear of the average TC...If you refuse to acknowledge it as legitimate ,given our past,then you have no right to expect the TCs to trust you...I hope you can see my point,coming from someone who personally believes that he is in no danger from any GC except perhaps the odd fanatical lunatic,who might believe that any good TC is a dead TC...

[Bananiot]

So Piratis, you are saying that it was the traitors (you love this word, you bash patriot, you cannot live in a world without traitors, because you would have no one to blame for your shortcomings) that prevented us from scoring a huge victory over the foreign imperialists and of course uniting Cyprus with Greece.

I say that you live on cloud nine and that it was the myopic view of the lawyers, priests and Grivas's at the time (all bash patriots) who started a form of a struggle that would inevitably lead to disaster as it did not took into consideration the forces involved in our area at the time. Damn it, even Greece was against it (we breath with two lungs, one English and the other American) and you have the audacity to repeat time and time again that it was the traitors like me (I was 5 at the time) that betrayed the struggle and not the miscalculations of the strategy needed regarding the form of struggle that would stand a more realistic chance to succeed.

I put it to you that if you are looking for traitor you do not need to look very far. They are in the soul of the bash patriots who continue until today to sell coal for gold, thinking that they will always be in a position to deceive the people with their bash patriotic rhetoric.

[Piratis]

So Piratis, you are saying that it was the traitors (you love this word, you bash patriot, you cannot live in a world without traitors, because you would have no one to blame for your shortcomings) that prevented us from scoring a huge victory over the foreign imperialists and of course uniting Cyprus with Greece.

I say that you live on cloud nine and that it was the myopic view of the lawyers, priests and Grivas's at the time (all bash patriots) who started a form of a struggle that would inevitably lead to disaster as it did not took into consideration the forces involved in our area at the time. Damn it, even Greece was against it (we breath with two lungs, one English and the other American) and you have the audacity to repeat time and time again that it was the traitors like me (I was 5 at the time) that betrayed the struggle and not the miscalculations of the strategy needed regarding the form of struggle that would stand a more realistic chance to succeed.

I put it to you that if you are looking for traitor you do not need to look very far. They are in the soul of the bash patriots who continue until today to sell coal for gold, thinking that they will always be in a position to deceive the people with their bash patriotic rhetoric.

If the Imperialists could achieve their aims without traitors, then why did they use such traitors? Why for example didn't they bring more of their own troops to fight against our revolution and they instead hired TCs to do their dirty job?

If you prefer to call you idiot instead of traitor, then fine. I gave you this option before and you can take it if you believe it is more appropriate.

The fact is that we asked for nothing less and nothing more than what was our rights. For many decades we were asking to be allowed to peacefully and freely decide the destiny of our own island and this undisputed right was denied to us by the Imperialists. Revolution was our last resort, and if it wasn't for traitors/idiots like you, then we would have succeeded.

[boomerang]

So Piratis, you are saying that it was the traitors (you love this word, you bash patriot, you cannot live in a world without traitors, because you would have no one to blame for your shortcomings) that prevented us from scoring a huge victory over the foreign imperialists and of course uniting Cyprus with Greece.

I say that you live on cloud nine and that it was the myopic view of the lawyers, priests and Grivas's at the time (all bash patriots) who started a form of a struggle that would inevitably lead to disaster as it did not took into consideration the forces involved in our area at the time. Damn it, even Greece was against it (we breath with two lungs, one English and the other American) and you have the audacity to repeat time and time again that it was the traitors like me (I was 5 at the time) that betrayed the struggle and not the miscalculations of the strategy needed regarding the form of struggle that would stand a more realistic chance to succeed.

I put it to you that if you are looking for traitor you do not need to look very far. They are in the soul of the bash patriots who continue until today to sell coal for gold, thinking that they will always be in a position to deceive the people with their bash patriotic rhetoric.

you can't talk bananiot...you go around calling everyone a traitor/fascist for voting down the annan plan...talk about having a sore ass...

[Viewpoint]

Bir nice to have you back but I beg to differ with you...we complain the system sucked big time when imposed on us so the next best thing is to make sure second time around it's fixed once and for all...half way measures will lead to more problems rendering any half hearted agreement useless...

Thanks,boomers...but the question is,given what you said, would it be right to impose a solution of then TCs,democratic or otherwise,against their will???? How long will that last??? The key is in compromise...Take stock of our past troubles,learn our lessons,and find a solution which might not be the ideal,but one that most people will be happy to live with...It is the only realistic approach...

GCs will never learn they still think Cyprus is Greek and we should go back to Turkey.

Hello,VP...The solution is simple...Those who think Cyprus is Greek should go back to Greece,and those who think Cyprus is Turkish should go back to Turkey...The rest of us should be able to live in Cyprus as Cypriots,not giving a second thought to our ethnic bakgrounds...I am dreaming I know,but wouldnt that be the most fair solution???

So you are happy to place your safety and future in the hands of the GCs like Piratis Kikapu Sotos Oracle and crowd?

Personally speaking,yes,I think i would be perfectly safe with all these people you named except one...I am not sure about that Kikapu... He would probably cause my death from all that molohiya and kolokas he will feed me...

VP, if the only people left in Cyprus are those who consider themselves Cypriots above all else,why not??? Why should we be in danger from other True Cypriots...

But I do get your point..And I do know and understand that given our bloody past most TCs are not prepared to trust the GCs at this point...not until some real steps are taken towards promoting understanding,respect, and reconciliation...of which there has been very little in the past 35 years...From both sides that is...

Thank god for your last paragraph how can you expects TCs to capitulate to GCs after our bloody past. you appear to be taken in by the 'True Cypriots' product the GCs peddle. where was this in 1963 when TC women were being molested at GC check points or TCs were kidnapped and killed only to be found 35 years later down a well. This we are all Cypriots crap is just to little to late. it needs time to mature in an atmosphere and trust and stability which is not currently the case and allowing for the mindset of GCs on this forum it will never be.

You may be prepared to hand your future on a plate to GCs but the majority of TCs who reside on the island are not. Unless these people show real signs of change and compromise then the future will be pretty what it is today. You know TCs well if you give them 1 they will give you 5 but unfortunately GCs do not have the capacity to understand this philosophy.

[boomerang]

we have seen the tc mindset http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27749

gcs pay special attention to the tc mindset in a united cyprus

[Viewpoint]

So Piratis, you are saying that it was the traitors (you love this word, you bash patriot, you cannot live in a world without traitors, because you would have no one to blame for your shortcomings) that prevented us from scoring a huge victory over the foreign imperialists and of course uniting Cyprus with Greece.

I say that you live on cloud nine and that it was the myopic view of the lawyers, priests and Grivas's at the time (all bash patriots) who started a form of a struggle that would inevitably lead to disaster as it did not took into consideration the forces involved in our area at the time. Damn it, even Greece was against it (we breath with two lungs, one English and the other American) and you have the audacity to repeat time and time again that it was the traitors like me (I was 5 at the time) that betrayed the struggle and not the miscalculations of the strategy needed regarding the form of struggle that would stand a more realistic chance to succeed.

I put it to you that if you are looking for traitor you do not need to look very far. They are in the soul of the bash patriots who continue until today to sell coal for gold, thinking that they will always be in a position to deceive the people with their bash patriotic rhetoric.

If the Imperialists could achieve their aims without traitors, then why did they use such traitors? Why for example didn't they bring more of their own troops to fight against our revolution and they instead hired TCs to do their dirty job?

If you prefer to call you idiot instead of traitor, then fine. I gave you this option before and you can take it if you believe it is more appropriate.

The fact is that we asked for nothing less and nothing more than what was our rights. For many decades we were asking to be allowed to peacefully and freely decide the destiny of our own island and this undisputed right was denied to us by the Imperialists. Revolution was our last resort, and if it wasn't for traitors/idiots like you, then we would have succeeded.

Revolution was what you got but not from GCs a large portion of the popultion who did not want to become part of Greece, its a 2 way street but you have yet to acknowledge that when democracy is used to the disadvantage of a large number of people they will do everything within their power to fight back and survive which is exactly what we did.