Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

They have the right to self-determination in Turkey, or wherever else they may get permission, but not in Cyprus. It's not permitted ... we are a Democracy of one people.

Duh ! Somebody can't even grasp the difference between a right and a privilege. Rights inhere, privileges are granted (permitted).

Did you ever "grasp" Democracy? No. They are not "granted" nor "permitted" the right to self-determination on territory belonging to others!

Try law or politics 101 then come back.

Why? They didn't teach you anything but nonsense!

[Afroasiatis]

TCs historically didn't have the right to self-determination because simply there were not the majority in any territory. If they are today, it's just because of recent ethnic cleansing. Using the same principle, Jews also didn't have the right of self-determination.

Of course the TCs, similar to Jews, had the right to demand equal treatment. There was a real problem with discrimination against them. But that doesn't mean that you have the right to create your own state in a territory in which you are not the majority.

[Oracle]

Of course the TCs, similar to Jews, had the right to demand equal treatment. There was a real problem with discrimination against them. .

First case I've heard of where the "discriminated" had more power and privileges than others.

But, you do seem a little confused on what "equality" means ...

[CopperLine]

Is the “TRNC” a Turkish Cypriot right of self-determination?

This sentence is either a grammatically incorrect or a logically incorrect statement/question.

A state/polity cannot itself be a right of anything. It could be a consequence of a right, it could be a realisation of a right, it could be an expression of a right, and of course it could be a failed consequence, failed realisation, failed expression. But it cannot be a right itself. (An analogue of this statement could be "Is a Ford Mondeo a citizen's right to property? It doesn't make sense). I think what Get Real is trying to ask is in fact a two part question : (i) Do Turkish Cypriots have a right of self-determination ? (ii) Does the TRNC embody/express that right to self-determination ? (There might be a third question : Is the TRNC a legitimate expression of that right of Turkish Cypriot self-determination ?)

[CopperLine]

Did you ever "grasp" Democracy? No. They are not "granted" nor "permitted" the right to self-determination on territory belonging to others!

This is just incontinent drivel.

Quote:
Try law or politics 101 then come back.

Why? They didn't teach you anything but nonsense!

Laughing[/quote] Whilst this is just the wittiest, most cutting comeback that anyone could have thought of.

[Expatkiwi]

Well, since the TRNC does exist, I guess that whether you think its ligitimate or not is a moot point. As long as the TRNC enjoys the support of its citizens, then it is indeed a nation.

[Afroasiatis]

Of course the TCs, similar to Jews, had the right to demand equal treatment. There was a real problem with discrimination against them. .

First case I've heard of where the "discriminated" had more power and privileges than others.

But, you do seem a little confused on what "equality" means ...

If you refer to the time between 1960 and 1963, you're right. According to Zurich-Consitution the TCs were an over-privileged minority.

But this was a very short period. The TC leadership had of course her own responsibility for ending it, and it was a big one, but the GC leadership had also its share. There were even attempts by the the TCs to return to the previous status, but they were rejected by GC leadership.

A very important factor was the economic gap between the two communities. At the time of the independence the average income of TCs was 20% less than that of GCs. With their isolation after 1963 (to a great part imposed by their own leadership and Turkey, but partly also due to GC leadership), the gap became wider. I think there was someone who had said that the greater mistake of GCs was their indifference to the poverty of TCs - and perhaps he was not so wrong.

[Afroasiatis]

Well, since the TRNC does exist, I guess that whether you think its ligitimate or not is a moot point. As long as the TRNC enjoys the support of its citizens, then it is indeed a nation.

The problem is that its territory didn't belong to these citizens, and there was no deal between the two sides for an exchange.

[Sotos]

Law 101

RESOLUTION 541 (1983)

Adopted by the Security Council
on 18 November 1983



The Security Council,

Having heard the statement of the Foreign Minister of the Government of the Republic of Cyprus,

Concerned at the declaration by the Turkish Cypriot authorities issued on 15 November 1983 which purports to create an independent state in northern Cyprus,

Considering that this declaration is incompatible with the 1960 Treaty concerning the establishment of the Republic of Cyprus and the 1960 Treaty of Guarantee,

Considering therefore that the attempt to create a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", is invalid, and will contribute to a worsening of the situation in Cyprus,

Reaffirming its resolutions 365(1974) and 367(1975),

Aware of the need for a solution of the Cyprus problem, based on the mission of good offices undertaken by the Secretary-General,

Affirming its continuing support for the United Nations Peace-Keeping Force in Cyprus,

Taking note of the Secretary-General's statement of 17 November 1983,

1. Deplores the declaration of the Turkish Cypriot authorities of the purported secession of part of the Republic of Cyprus;

2. Considers the declaration referred to above as legally invalid and calls for its withdrawal;

3. Calls for the urgent and effective implementation of its resolutions 365(1974) and 367(1975);

4. Requests the Secretary-General to pursue his mission of good offices in order to achieve the earliest possible progress towards a just and lasting settlement in Cyprus;

5. Calls upon the parties to cooperate fully with the Secretary-General in his mission of good offices;

6. Calls upon all States to respect the sovereignty, independence, territorial integrity and non-alignment of the Republic of Cyprus;

7. Calls upon all States not to recognise any Cypriot state other than the Republic of Cyprus;

8. Calls upon all States and the two communities in Cyprus to refrain from any action which might exacerbate the situation;

9. Requests the Secretary-General to keep the Security Council fully informed.

Adopted at the 2500th meeting by 13 votes to 1 against (Pakistan) with 1 abstention (Jordan).

Test for CopperLine and Expatwiki. Fill in the blank:

the attempt to create a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", is _______

[Expatkiwi]

Sotos, would the word be "ligitimate", or maybe "real", or perhaps "wonderful"?