Cyprus-Forum.com

[Oracle]

... Where have I excused Turkey's crimes ?.

Excuse me, but I got the impression that was ALL you did ....

[Expatkiwi]

And how about Greek crimes, Oracle?

[Oracle]

And how about Greek crimes, Oracle?

How about Kiwi crimes?


Seriously Expat, go and see a counsellor or someone, because you are not making sense.

[Piratis]

Can you please give me a link in any of your posts in this forum where you condemn the Turkish invasion, the occupation of Cyprus by Turkish troops, the ethnic cleansing, and the illegal declaration of the "trnc"? I gave you a chance to do so in this thread, but you again avoided doing so.

I see, I see. Should I take this request as evidence that you have not read my previous posts condemning Turkish fascism, Turkey's suppression of Kurds, Turkey's violation of a raft of human rights - from workers rights, to language rights, to freedom of expression, and so on - Turkey's anti-democratic political history, and so on. Or should I take this request as evidence that you just ignored my postings when they didn't confirm your prejudices about me ? Or should I take this request as evidence that you can't be bothered to check up on material before you post reckless allegations.

You should know by now that I don't respond to leading questions, and yours is a leading question. Incidentally, when will you provide evidence to me that you've stopped beating your wife ? (Is this an outrageous suggestion and baseless allegation to make about you Piratis which you resent and refuse to provide evidence ?)

The burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim. You have no evidence whatsoever about what I do in my personal life, but I have tons of evidence about your position in the Cyprus Problem and your clear support to the "trnc" (which you never put within quotes, for obvious reasons). Your last post is yet another evidence, since you yet again avoided to denounce the invasion and occupation of my country by yours, the ethnic cleansing of the majority of Cypriots from their homeland and the illegal declaration of the "trnc" on our land.

At least most Turks/TCs in this forum are honest and they do not try to disguise their beliefs.

All I see from you is trying to excuse the crimes by Turkey. You even got upset when I pointed out to you that the "trnc" is more similar to the puppet regimes that Hitler was installing in the territories he invaded and occupied, rather than with irrelevant cases such as the one of Taiwan. (which has nothing to do with a foreign invasion and occupation).

I don't really know why I even bother replying to this nonsense. But here goes ... (I) Where have I excused Turkey's crimes ? What I try to do is explain why T, or TRNC or RoC or whichever state does the things that it has done.

Here you go again, calling "trnc" (without using the quotes) a state, equating it with Republic of Cyprus.

To quote a UN resolution which Sotos posted for you lately: the attempt to create a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", is invalid

The so called "trnc" is one of the Turkish crimes, which was the result of an invasion, an illegal occupation, the illegal ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of Greek Cypriots, and the illegal transfer to Cyprus of 100s of thousands of Turkish Settlers.

Or to try to work out why people try to justify their actions in certain terms. And so on. Just like the analysis of torture or the analysis of war does not entail the endorsement of either, so the analysis of the Cyprus question does not entail the support of any particular side. As I have said several times on this forum my politics are anti-nationalist, internationalist, democratic, anti-militarist, secular and socialist. In a nutshell, regarding GC and TC and Turkish (and Greek) nationalists : a plague on all your houses.

If you didn't endorse the crimes of Turkey, then you would write "trnc" within quotes, like the UN does, and you would not try excuse the crimes of your country against mine. You can claim that you are all that, but one thing is what you claim to be, and another thing is what you really are.

(II) I didn't get upset with your similarity of TRNC and a Nazi occupied territory, I just thought it absurd. Look Piratis the quoted deaths arising directly out of the 1974 division and afterwards are 1500 for GCs missing since 1974, and around about 5,000 killed during the conflict. I don't know whether these figures are at the high or low end of the spectrum of quoted figures. I do know that the first figure is roughly the number quoted before the ECHR. To this let us add 150,000-200,000 displaced from the north albeit to a safe haven. And you say this is similar to a Nazi occupied country. Piratis, more Greeks went up the Nazi crematoria chimney in one day than were killed in the entire Cyprus conflict. Ten times more people were 'cleansed' from Ukraine by the Nazis than the entire population of Cyprus in 1974. In 1945 in Germany alone there were 5.8 million displaced people i.e, forcibly taken from Nazi occupied territories and sent to Germany. Eight years after the war ended there were still 5.5 million Soviet nationals who had been displaced by the Nazis - ethnically cleansed, forced labour, slave labour, etc - who were then forcibly repatriated to the various Soviet republics. .... and I could go on .... so you see Piratis your claim that TRNC or Turkey's effect on GCs or RoC is like Nazi German invasion and illegally occupied territories is just plain silly.

So you are comparing the whole World War with the war in Cyprus?

What you should compare are similar things. Lets compare the invasion of Crete by the Nazis (one of the most important battles of the WWII) and the invasion of Cyprus by the Turks.

In terms of casualties, Cretans and Cypriots suffered about the same number 6000-7000 (including the missing). But for everything else the Turks were worst. They occupy Cyprus for far longer than the Germans occupied Crete, and the Nazis didn't ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of Cretans from their homes, neither they transferred German settlers in Crete in an attempt to alter the demographics of the island, like the Turks did in Cyprus.

So in what way are the Turks better than the Nazis?

(III) The issue at hand was the difference between Taiwan and TRNC, not Nazi history. It was not I who introduced the comparison and differences between Taiwan and TRNC, I simply responded to that question by noting the international legal differences and similarities particularly regarding recognition. It was you who introduced the Nazi comparison. I think that comparison quite misplaced, quite misleading and historically ignorant, whereas you dismiss as irrelevant the original poster's question. You introduced the issue of invasion in the comparison, though the international legal problem of recognition does not revolve around the issue of invasion. (You might wish it would, but it doesn't - check the legal cases and tests).

You noted the Turkish position on the issue trying to show similarities between the two cases.

I pointed out that the two cases have very little in common, and that the "trnc" is more similar to the puppet regimes that Hitler installed in the territories he occupied.

The invasion is indeed the key difference between the two cases, since without the invasion of Cyprus by Turkey there would be no "trnc". The "trnc" is not a result of the will of the people of the north part of Cyprus (the far majority of whom are GCs) but something imposed on Cyprus illegally and by force as a result of a foreign invasion, foreign occupation, ethnic cleansing of the native population and illegal transfer of foreign settlers on our lands. None of this happened in the case of Taiwan.

[CopperLine]

Piratis,
Your last post was typically evasive and left you busy building straw figures - again. The stuff on the Nazi comparison, which you introduced not me, is simply daft.

Against my better judgment here is a sample of posts which indicate the kinds of things that I have actually written on this forum and not what you imagine I have written on this forum. It took me a couple of minutes to search for these, something you couldn't be arsed to do before repeating baseless allegations.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/post-187239.html&highlight=turkey+democracy#187239 from July 2007

The line where you say to me

Nobody will have any prejudice against you because of your origin.

has me laughing all over the place. http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=189332&highlight=turkey+democracy#189332 from August 2007


http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... ent#188704 from August 2007about the Turkish army

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... t&start=40 from August 2007 about Turkish army and democracy

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=211519&highlight=turkey+democracy#211519 from October 2007 about ethnic cleansing

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=346957&highlight=expression#346957 from September 2008 on fighting the Turkish state and supporting democracy



So Piratis, when are you going to stop beating your wife ? Evidence please.

[Oracle]

Can you please give me a link in any of your posts in this forum where you condemn the Turkish invasion, the occupation of Cyprus by Turkish troops, the ethnic cleansing, and the illegal declaration of the "trnc"? I gave you a chance to do so in this thread, but you again avoided doing so.

I see, I see. Should I take this request as evidence that you have not read my previous posts condemning Turkish fascism, Turkey's suppression of Kurds, Turkey's violation of a raft of human rights - from workers rights, to language rights, to freedom of expression, and so on - Turkey's anti-democratic political history, and so on. Or should I take this request as evidence that you just ignored my postings when they didn't confirm your prejudices about me ? Or should I take this request as evidence that you can't be bothered to check up on material before you post reckless allegations.

You should know by now that I don't respond to leading questions, and yours is a leading question. Incidentally, when will you provide evidence to me that you've stopped beating your wife ? (Is this an outrageous suggestion and baseless allegation to make about you Piratis which you resent and refuse to provide evidence ?)

The burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim. You have no evidence whatsoever about what I do in my personal life, but I have tons of evidence about your position in the Cyprus Problem and your clear support to the "trnc" (which you never put within quotes, for obvious reasons). Your last post is yet another evidence, since you yet again avoided to denounce the invasion and occupation of my country by yours, the ethnic cleansing of the majority of Cypriots from their homeland and the illegal declaration of the "trnc" on our land.

At least most Turks/TCs in this forum are honest and they do not try to disguise their beliefs.

All I see from you is trying to excuse the crimes by Turkey. You even got upset when I pointed out to you that the "trnc" is more similar to the puppet regimes that Hitler was installing in the territories he invaded and occupied, rather than with irrelevant cases such as the one of Taiwan. (which has nothing to do with a foreign invasion and occupation).

I don't really know why I even bother replying to this nonsense. But here goes ... (I) Where have I excused Turkey's crimes ? What I try to do is explain why T, or TRNC or RoC or whichever state does the things that it has done.

Here you go again, calling "trnc" (without using the quotes) a state, equating it with Republic of Cyprus.

To quote a UN resolution which Sotos posted for you lately: the attempt to create a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", is invalid

The so called "trnc" is one of the Turkish crimes, which was the result of an invasion, an illegal occupation, the illegal ethnic cleansing of 100s of thousands of Greek Cypriots, and the illegal transfer to Cyprus of 100s of thousands of Turkish Settlers.

Or to try to work out why people try to justify their actions in certain terms. And so on. Just like the analysis of torture or the analysis of war does not entail the endorsement of either, so the analysis of the Cyprus question does not entail the support of any particular side. As I have said several times on this forum my politics are anti-nationalist, internationalist, democratic, anti-militarist, secular and socialist. In a nutshell, regarding GC and TC and Turkish (and Greek) nationalists : a plague on all your houses.

If you didn't endorse the crimes of Turkey, then you would write "trnc" within quotes, like the UN does, and you would not try excuse the crimes of your country against mine. You can claim that you are all that, but one thing is what you claim to be, and another thing is what you really are.

(II) I didn't get upset with your similarity of TRNC and a Nazi occupied territory, I just thought it absurd. Look Piratis the quoted deaths arising directly out of the 1974 division and afterwards are 1500 for GCs missing since 1974, and around about 5,000 killed during the conflict. I don't know whether these figures are at the high or low end of the spectrum of quoted figures. I do know that the first figure is roughly the number quoted before the ECHR. To this let us add 150,000-200,000 displaced from the north albeit to a safe haven. And you say this is similar to a Nazi occupied country. Piratis, more Greeks went up the Nazi crematoria chimney in one day than were killed in the entire Cyprus conflict. Ten times more people were 'cleansed' from Ukraine by the Nazis than the entire population of Cyprus in 1974. In 1945 in Germany alone there were 5.8 million displaced people i.e, forcibly taken from Nazi occupied territories and sent to Germany. Eight years after the war ended there were still 5.5 million Soviet nationals who had been displaced by the Nazis - ethnically cleansed, forced labour, slave labour, etc - who were then forcibly repatriated to the various Soviet republics. .... and I could go on .... so you see Piratis your claim that TRNC or Turkey's effect on GCs or RoC is like Nazi German invasion and illegally occupied territories is just plain silly.

So you are comparing the whole World War with the war in Cyprus?

What you should compare are similar things. Lets compare the invasion of Crete by the Nazis (one of the most important battles of the WWII) and the invasion of Cyprus by the Turks.

In terms of casualties, Cretans and Cypriots suffered about the same number 6000-7000 (including the missing). But for everything else the Turks were worst. They occupy Cyprus for far longer than the Germans occupied Crete, and the Nazis didn't ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of Cretans from their homes, neither they transferred German settlers in Crete in an attempt to alter the demographics of the island, like the Turks did in Cyprus.

So in what way are the Turks better than the Nazis?

(III) The issue at hand was the difference between Taiwan and TRNC, not Nazi history. It was not I who introduced the comparison and differences between Taiwan and TRNC, I simply responded to that question by noting the international legal differences and similarities particularly regarding recognition. It was you who introduced the Nazi comparison. I think that comparison quite misplaced, quite misleading and historically ignorant, whereas you dismiss as irrelevant the original poster's question. You introduced the issue of invasion in the comparison, though the international legal problem of recognition does not revolve around the issue of invasion. (You might wish it would, but it doesn't - check the legal cases and tests).

You noted the Turkish position on the issue trying to show similarities between the two cases.

I pointed out that the two cases have very little in common, and that the "trnc" is more similar to the puppet regimes that Hitler installed in the territories he occupied.

The invasion is indeed the key difference between the two cases, since without the invasion of Cyprus by Turkey there would be no "trnc". The "trnc" is not a result of the will of the people of the north part of Cyprus (the far majority of whom are GCs) but something imposed on Cyprus illegally and by force as a result of a foreign invasion, foreign occupation, ethnic cleansing of the native population and illegal transfer of foreign settlers on our lands. None of this happened in the case of Taiwan.

Excellent paradigm! CopperLine would have to be a hard-line pro-Turkish fascist to deny the conclusion from this ...

[Acikgoz]

It's like Piratis is trying to be the Dan Brown of Cyprus with crazy Oracle as his literary agent!
Take a few facts, mix them with myths and suggestion and hope the punters buy it.

[Oracle]

It's like Piratis is trying to be the Dan Brown of Cyprus with crazy Oracle as his literary agent!
Take a few facts, mix them with myths and suggestion and hope the punters buy it.

Well then let's see how you would edit this to make it more popular as a bestseller with the Turks (remember Turkey imprisons/shoots/hounds publishers of truths it does not like):

What you should compare are similar things. Lets compare the invasion of Crete by the Nazis (one of the most important battles of the WWII) and the invasion of Cyprus by the Turks.

In terms of casualties, Cretans and Cypriots suffered about the same number 6000-7000 (including the missing). But for everything else the Turks were worst. They occupy Cyprus for far longer than the Germans occupied Crete, and the Nazis didn't ethnically cleanse 100s of thousands of Cretans from their homes, neither they transferred German settlers in Crete in an attempt to alter the demographics of the island, like the Turks did in Cyprus.

So in what way are the Turks better than the Nazis?

[Acikgoz]

You are a loyal to your publicist: a good soldier is not an intelligent one but a loyal one.

You are so focused on Turkey/Turkish Cypriot bashing that you miss the real discussion or formation of logical relevant argument appropriate to the discussion.

It's hard to focus when you're mad I guess.

[Oracle]

You are a loyal to your publicist: a good soldier is not an intelligent one but a loyal one.

You are so focused on Turkey/Turkish Cypriot bashing that you miss the real discussion or formation of logical relevant argument appropriate to the discussion.

It's hard to focus when you're mad I guess.

I've certainly missed any you may have posted!