Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Another prime example of how the majority can abuse their advantage to brush aside peoples right to practice their religion....GR where are you now?

Lets not exaggerate, VP, because no one is denied their right to practice their religion in Switzerland. There are about 150 mosques and other places to pray for the Muslims in this country, and as it was pointed out earlier, only 4 of these structures have a minaret with 2 more requested to be built. This initiative is not a ban on religion of the Muslim faith, or building more mosques. It is purely to prevent the building of minarets. There is already a ban on service given from minarets because the Swiss no not want one religion pushing their beliefs on others with a megaphone into the silent air to disturb the peace 5 times a day. The Muslims in this country will not be bothered, since 90% are not the worshiping kind, most being from Kosovo and from Turkey.

I really blame the Muslims world for what the Swiss did yesterday. The Muslim countries are not at all accommodating to the needs of the Christians from the west what so ever in their countries but cry foul when ever other countries want to protect their own cultures, so perhaps this can be a wake up call for them to be more open to other peoples religious beliefs and needs. To me the whole thing is a non issue, because

a) Muslims can very happily pray at a mosque without minarets

b) They have been for very long time since there are only 4 mosques with minarets, so where is the issue.

c) With only 4 minaret’s in the whole country, where is the issue with the Swiss, other than they do not want their landscape to become full of minaret’s in the future since the wheels of religion moves very slowly, so they are perhaps looking way into the future of hundreds of years and want to put a stop to it right now. Look how much "alive and well" Jesus Christ is doing 2,000+ years after his death.! If many more minarets were to be built, the next issue would be when the Imams would want to pray from the minaret’s 5 times a day, which would become a worse issue at later stage than putting stop to the minarets in the first place. Again, this is not a very big issue for the Muslims in this country, but only to the Muslim countries who want to make an issue of nothing, and given the fact they are the worse offenders of others religious rights, all they are doing is blowing hot air.

I have also told you that in a True Democracy, everything can be challenged, so be careful what you want for a settlement for the TCs, because if it's unreasonable, it will be challenged in the ballot box and the courts.

Kikapu again you show your biased and one sided views, if you support such an act then why dont we take down all the crosses out side churches or remove the bells from church towers becuase they force religion on others, your arguement is lame and you know it, for once do the right thing and admit they are wrong. This very clear example is how "democracy" can fuck over a minority, these are clear signs of how it would be in a united Cyprus where there are no safeguards when you also take into account that GCs are the most racists in the EU. The dangers are clear whether you choose to ignore them is your problem not ours, we will demands safeguards so that we can stop such decisions.

This is their country and culture after all and the church towers and bells have been here way before immigrants came, although there are also regulation on how often church bells can ring and when but once again you are changing the subject, because I did not say that the minarets will be used to force the Muslim faith on others by themselves, but rather the minarets may be used in the future by the Imams to broadcast their preaching all over the place that will be forcing their religion on others. Now don't make me repeat this again because you deliberately miss quoting me or you really do not comprehend what it is that you read at times. TCs are in Cyprus as Cypriots and their culture and religion must and will be protected along with the GCs and all Cypriot citizens, so put them in the constitution. You cannot have a blanket veto to stop Democratic means, just because VP does not like something. I gave you all the protections each state has and what it would take to amend the constitution with an active role of each state and it's citizens. So far you have refused such good measures. Perhaps Talat has a better one.? We will see soon.!

You are avoiding the real issue here.

Can the "majority" in your united Cyprus vote to ban imams from calling people to prayer? The Swiss one of the most democratic countires around you told us this have just voted 57% to stop the building of minerets.. is this an example of the dangers TCs will face in a united Cyprus, we cannot include everything in the constitution and changing times will call for new laws or laws which are manipulated to the determent of a portion of the population? or effect one more negatively that the other.

Should all countries have the right to ban other religious artifacts or buildings on the basis that they may be used to force religion on one another (this is Kikapus mindset)and because that religion wa sintroduced into the given country at a later date?

No VP, I'm not avoiding anything. It is you who is trying to mix Oranges and Lemons to try and win an argument, which you are not succeeding I may add.!

You can put anything you want into the constitution as long as all parties agree to it to be in there. This is the ONLY safeguard you will need in a Unified Cyprus. A simple "separation of State and Religion" provisions will be enough to protect everyone's religious rights. Besides, in the plan I gave you, the north will be TC majority as long as enough GC land is given back, so don't worry about "majority rule" in the north. In any case, Cyprus has Christians and Muslims as part of their culture, therefore these will be protected in the constitution unless most of north's and south's states majority as well as lower and the upper house all decide to ban the Imams from "disturbing the peace" 5 times a day at all hours of the day, so yes, the majority rule will apply if it's the desire of all the people and the states I've mentioned above, but even then, this can and will be challenged in the courts for it's validity even if ONE person does not agree with the majorities rulings, because not all "majority vote" are legal if they in fact violate anyone’s Democratic and Human Rights. I thought you have already understood these basic protections on Democratic and Human Rights for all citizens provided by the constitution.

As far as I know, minarets are not required to be part of the mosque in order for that mosque to be a prayer house for the Muslim Faith, that's why for me, the Swiss vote on this issue is really a non issue since no one is prevented from practicing their religion or building more mosques. It's not to say this issue will not be re voted at later date to allow the building of minarets in the future when the political landscape changes again. This is Democracy at work which can shift it's position, just like the Sand Dunes in the desert depending which direction the wind is blowing and how hard. There is already a ban on Imams preaching from minarets here which the Muslims here don't seem to mind or complain about, nor do large majority of Muslims seem to mind the banning of building more minarets, because to them, it is also a non issue. What you want to do is to step over the majorities wishes and prevent any decision taken by them even if ONE person disagrees with the majority if no ones Democratic or Human Rights are violated. Is this your idea of running a country, VP, because if it is, you really do not understand how countries function in the way they do. You need to keep your eyes on the ball and don't go off in unrelated matters to try and make political points, because it just make you look silly and a propagandist for partition.

While we are on the subject of "majority rule", perhaps you can explain to us why in the north ONLY a TURK can become a police officer or perhaps also to many other government posts and state jobs as a "citizen of the trnc" and not any other non TURK "citizen of the trnc". Are you complaining about the "trnc" violating other "trnc citizens" Democratic and Human Rights by any chance.? Why do you put up with this Racist policy that denies other non TURK "trnc citizens" equal opportunity to get the same jobs as the TURKS.?

Yet again you try to pull the wool over everyone eyes, by using verbal diahorrea to brush aside a ban on minerets which is a prime example of how the majority can use thier advantage to the detrement of the minority, those muslim that you say are happy with outsome were out protesting so not quite the picture you want to have swallow.

You cannot prejudge and include all issues in a constitution and there will be open doors which the majority can exploit just as the case in Switzerland where the people are less racist than those who are the most racist in the EU. There has to be a mechaism whereby sensative issues can be blocked when they arise over the years because allowing an irresponsible racist people a free hand will only make the minority suffer, this is obvioulsy your ultimate goal to deem us powerless to say no.

In the TRNC once you are a citizen you can apply for any job, I have TC friends in the police force so that blows your stupid claim out of the water, if you are a migrant worker you can also get permission to work in the TRNC. Isnt it the same where you are? you have to get citizenship or permission to work regardless of your ethnic backround.

[Raymanoff]

Viewpoint, i want to know more about "TRNC"'s democracy... i never been in occupied areas and will never go until proper solution is reached... but its still interesting.

[Kikapu]

Referendums do play a very much bigger role in Swiss democratic system that than do elsewhere.

Elsewhere, including in a reunified CY, this would be a local planning issue, one where the local or district council would decide on the individual application for a minaret (or anything else).

Suspect they would not only look at the building but also on the mattr of noise. Some councils may look favourably on this noise issue by deciding that the calls to prayer would not impact on neighbours, other local councils may take a different view.

So in the real CY post-settlement world, this minaret business would, as it should, be a matter for the local level democratic planning system.

No big deal.

Bill, the same is here, where the local councils do decide on what goes on in their villages, towns and Cantons. The vote that was taken Sunday for the whole country will now become part of the Swiss constitution banning in building minarets, which will in effect absolve the local councils to have to deal with demands to build these minarets. Basically, this vote will prevent any town or council to deal with such request and if permission is denied for them not to face any political fall out as being labelled as a "racist" council, village, town or Canton. The Swiss are one of the most tolerant people for a conservative society that I have had the pleasure to live with them for the past 5 years where everyone is treated equally in the eyes of the law which there are about 40% immigrants that make up the population of Switzerland. Religious freedom is afforded to everyone, even to women I see in burkas once in a while, who are "imprisoned" into them by their own husbands and religion and not by the Swiss People or their Laws.

[Viewpoint]

Referendums do play a very much bigger role in Swiss democratic system that than do elsewhere.

Elsewhere, including in a reunified CY, this would be a local planning issue, one where the local or district council would decide on the individual application for a minaret (or anything else).

Suspect they would not only look at the building but also on the mattr of noise. Some councils may look favourably on this noise issue by deciding that the calls to prayer would not impact on neighbours, other local councils may take a different view.

So in the real CY post-settlement world, this minaret business would, as it should, be a matter for the local level democratic planning system.

No big deal.

You can try and brush the issue under the carpet but it doesnt detract from the fact that this is a clear example of how the majority can use their numerical advantage to the detrement of the minority....next the GCs in a united Cyprus will vote to have minarets removed from all places of worship and all Atatürk statues from school playgrounds and then hide behind the "but the majority voted for it"....they did it in Switzerland why cant we...there are many manipulative games the GC can come up with,they are the masters at it after all.

[Kikapu]

Yet again you try to pull the wool over everyone eyes, by using verbal diahorrea to brush aside a ban on minerets which is a prime example of how the majority can use thier advantage to the detrement of the minority, those muslim that you say are happy with outsome were out protesting so not quite the picture you want to have swallow.

You cannot prejudge and include all issues in a constitution and there will be open doors which the majority can exploit just as the case in Switzerland where the people are less racist than those who are the most racist in the EU. There has to be a mechaism whereby sensative issues can be blocked when they arise over the years because allowing an irresponsible racist people a free hand will only make the minority suffer, this is obvioulsy your ultimate goal to deem us powerless to say no.

There is no point arguing with you as a partitionist. I can never expect for you to be reasonable, but tell us VP, where do you draw the line as to when anything can become law if it's not by a majority rule. Can any individual put a stop to a law being enacted, just because they do not like it, or do you seriously expect 100% approval from all citizens.?

There are about 400,000 Muslims in Switzerland and roughly 90% are non practicing Muslims. Whom ever are protesting this decision are mostly the Swiss liberals and not the majority of the Muslim population since they do not even visit the mosques themselves. I know a Turk within greater family circles here of my girlfriend who is upset because he is someone who prays 5 times a day and is about 70 years old, but majority of the last 2 generations who moved here very young and had families here themselves, they and their children do not fall into this group of protestors, if there are any.!

In the TRNC once you are a citizen you can apply for any job, I have TC friends in the police force so that blows your stupid claim out of the water, if you are a migrant worker you can also get permission to work in the TRNC. Isnt it the same where you are? you have to get citizenship or permission to work regardless of your ethnic backround.

A TC/TURK is the same thing according to the “trnc”, are they not in the north.?? I'm talking about a non TC/TURK and according to Halil, non TC/TURK cannot become a police officer even as a "citizen" of the north. Are you calling Halil a liar.?? I'm not talking about migrants but full "citizens of the trnc". Can they apply for any jobs as well as government positions as a non TC/TURKS.???

[bill cobbett]

Referendums do play a very much bigger role in Swiss democratic system that than do elsewhere.

Elsewhere, including in a reunified CY, this would be a local planning issue, one where the local or district council would decide on the individual application for a minaret (or anything else).

Suspect they would not only look at the building but also on the mattr of noise. Some councils may look favourably on this noise issue by deciding that the calls to prayer would not impact on neighbours, other local councils may take a different view.

So in the real CY post-settlement world, this minaret business would, as it should, be a matter for the local level democratic planning system.

No big deal.

You can try and brush the issue under the carpet but it doesnt detract from the fact that this is a clear example of how the majority can use their numerical advantage to the detrement of the minority....next the GCs in a united Cyprus will vote to have minarets removed from all places of worship and all Atatürk statues from school playgrounds and then hide behind the "but the majority voted for it"....they did it in Switzerland why cant we...there are many manipulative games the GC can come up with,they are the masters at it after all.

Really VP ! Stop and do a little thinking before jumping out of the pram at every chance. You know as well as everyone else that on both sides of the ceasefire line, if you want to build immovable property you ask for permission from your local council.

A tissy local council in a tissy zone will probably look favourably on your minaret application whereas a greecy one may look on it less favourably. It remains a local planning matter which really you are trying to blow out of all proportion.

Now here's some help .... forget minarets, which are a non-issue, and think about dodgy statues of a certain past historical figure if you really want to be divisive and controversial. You may also wish to consider controversial flags and hillside graffitti when it comes to wider matters of what can and can't be erected.

[Me Ed]

Referendums do play a very much bigger role in Swiss democratic system that than do elsewhere.

Elsewhere, including in a reunified CY, this would be a local planning issue, one where the local or district council would decide on the individual application for a minaret (or anything else).

Suspect they would not only look at the building but also on the mattr of noise. Some councils may look favourably on this noise issue by deciding that the calls to prayer would not impact on neighbours, other local councils may take a different view.

So in the real CY post-settlement world, this minaret business would, as it should, be a matter for the local level democratic planning system.

No big deal.

You can try and brush the issue under the carpet but it doesnt detract from the fact that this is a clear example of how the majority can use their numerical advantage to the detrement of the minority....next the GCs in a united Cyprus will vote to have minarets removed from all places of worship and all Atatürk statues from school playgrounds and then hide behind the "but the majority voted for it"....they did it in Switzerland why cant we...there are many manipulative games the GC can come up with,they are the masters at it after all.

VP, the building of an imposing structure such as a minaret in a secular European country is a clear example of a minority imposing it's beliefs to the detriment of the majority - the Swiss don't like them or want them.

[Viewpoint]

Kikapu

There is no point arguing with you as a partitionist. I can never expect for you to be reasonable, but tell us VP, where do you draw the line as to when anything can become law if it's not by a majority rule. Can any individual put a stop to a law being enacted, just because they do not like it, or do you seriously expect 100% approval from all citizens.?

There are about 400,000 Muslims in Switzerland and roughly 90% are non practicing Muslims. Whom ever are protesting this decision are mostly the Swiss liberals and not the majority of the Muslim population since they do not even visit the mosques themselves. I know a Turk within greater family circles here of my girlfriend who is upset because he is someone who prays 5 times a day and is about 70 years old, but majority of the last 2 generations who moved here very young and had families here themselves, they and their children do not fall into this group of protestors, if there are any.!

Classic response from someone who continously biased and is unable to accept that he is not 100% right. You are blowing things out of all propertion because laws normally are for the benefit of all the citizens but on key/sensative issues where one side is being persecuted or put at a disadvantage for ethnic origins or religion they should have the ability to say no hold this is not right.

You know full well that this decision is racist against muslims and thats why it was taken nationally rather than council level, you yourself confirmed this...if all religions are tolerated then places of worship should also be tolerated, the minaret is like the bell tower is used to call people to prayer, if you ban one then you should also ban the other as it would be discriminating against one religion.

Does it matter who attended the protest obvioulsy people felt strongly enough to register and objection to such a racist decision which is a prime example of what the majority can do to crush the minoirty if no safeguards are in place to stop them, if the Swiss are the most democratic god help us with GCs the most racist people in the EU.

Be honest for once and admit that this decision is not entirely correct and leaves a lot to be desired....

A TC/TURK is the same thing according to the “trnc”, are they not in the north.?? I'm talking about a non TC/TURK and according to Halil, non TC/TURK cannot become a police officer even as a "citizen" of the north. Are you calling Halil a liar.?? I'm not talking about migrants but full "citizens of the trnc". Can they apply for any jobs as well as government positions as a non TC/TURKS.???

What is the different between a TC/TURK and a non TC/TURK if they are both citizens of the TRNC...I think yu have misuderstood what Halil is trying to say but as far as I am aware everyone is treated equally if they are a TRNC citizen. There are plenty of examples in both the Government and the police force.

[Viewpoint]

Referendums do play a very much bigger role in Swiss democratic system that than do elsewhere.

Elsewhere, including in a reunified CY, this would be a local planning issue, one where the local or district council would decide on the individual application for a minaret (or anything else).

Suspect they would not only look at the building but also on the mattr of noise. Some councils may look favourably on this noise issue by deciding that the calls to prayer would not impact on neighbours, other local councils may take a different view.

So in the real CY post-settlement world, this minaret business would, as it should, be a matter for the local level democratic planning system.

No big deal.

You can try and brush the issue under the carpet but it doesnt detract from the fact that this is a clear example of how the majority can use their numerical advantage to the detrement of the minority....next the GCs in a united Cyprus will vote to have minarets removed from all places of worship and all Atatürk statues from school playgrounds and then hide behind the "but the majority voted for it"....they did it in Switzerland why cant we...there are many manipulative games the GC can come up with,they are the masters at it after all.

Really VP ! Stop and do a little thinking before jumping out of the pram at every chance. You know as well as everyone else that on both sides of the ceasefire line, if you want to build immovable property you ask for permission from your local council.

A tissy local council in a tissy zone will probably look favourably on your minaret application whereas a greecy one may look on it less favourably. It remains a local planning matter which really you are trying to blow out of all proportion.

Now here's some help .... forget minarets, which are a non-issue, and think about dodgy statues of a certain past historical figure if you really want to be divisive and controversial. You may also wish to consider controversial flags and hillside graffitti when it comes to wider matters of what can and can't be erected.

You just stated thats a state council matter the GCs dont have to place one on their mountain we cannot do anything about according to you, the point here you have to get your pea brain around is that the majority can abuse their numerical advantage to the detrement of the minority...its the principle we are discussing.

[Viewpoint]

Referendums do play a very much bigger role in Swiss democratic system that than do elsewhere.

Elsewhere, including in a reunified CY, this would be a local planning issue, one where the local or district council would decide on the individual application for a minaret (or anything else).

Suspect they would not only look at the building but also on the mattr of noise. Some councils may look favourably on this noise issue by deciding that the calls to prayer would not impact on neighbours, other local councils may take a different view.

So in the real CY post-settlement world, this minaret business would, as it should, be a matter for the local level democratic planning system.

No big deal.

You can try and brush the issue under the carpet but it doesnt detract from the fact that this is a clear example of how the majority can use their numerical advantage to the detrement of the minority....next the GCs in a united Cyprus will vote to have minarets removed from all places of worship and all Atatürk statues from school playgrounds and then hide behind the "but the majority voted for it"....they did it in Switzerland why cant we...there are many manipulative games the GC can come up with,they are the masters at it after all.

VP, the building of an imposing structure such as a minaret in a secular European country is a clear example of a minority imposing it's beliefs to the detriment of the majority - the Swiss don't like them or want them.

Is this democracy at its best, if you dont like it get rid of it?? this muslim population is part of the Swiss mosiac just asthey have to tollerate churches the christians have to tolerate the Muslims minarets...this is what you call equality without discrimination.