Cyprus-Forum.com

[Talisker]

As I previously told u, TCs were 1/3 of Cyprus population in the begining of the British Rule.. had the emigration rate been at a normal level, today; instead of 264.000 TRNC citizens comprise of TCs, Cyprus born settlers and Turkey born settlers etc, there would have been almost pure TCs of 250.000+ in TRNC and we would have faced the same economic problems.

Y'see Insan, we have a problem here. You've plucked an unsubstantiated figure from a period of history which suits your political, demographic and land claim desires. If I was a GC I'd say, 'Well back in the 1560s........' - fill in the gaps yourself!

[Viewpoint]

Thank you for finally understanding how strongly we feel, your intial approach we can have today by moving south...yet what you see in reality is that TCs are not moving to this so called paradise in the EU because they do not feel they belong and think of it as a foreign country for GCs not TCs (please dont give us the GC crap about land grabbing)if TCs felt their lives would be better in the south they would up sticks and move tomorrow but no TC want to live as a minority in a GC state where they feel like foreigners.

Lastly the thought of becoming part of Turkey makes most TCs cringe but the alternative for us is far worse and we will never accept a minority role in a Gc state, we would rather return to our Turkish roots and become part of a 80million and fast developing Turkey.

Its not that difficult to understand either an equal partnership under a BBF of the current status quo with the future consequencies, the choice is yours.

Actually I think the situation for TCs would be completely different in a reunited Cyprus than it is now when you attempt to explain why TCs haven't flocked to the south. Firstly, I suspect TCs are not exactly encouraged to make visits to the south, or to move there - what is the attitude of the TRNC 'authorities' to this? Making another analogy to Germany, families of escapees from communist East to democratic West Germany were victimised. Are similar presurres exerted in the north, or is there a perception amongst 'normal TCs' that if they go south there might be no return? Secondly, in a reunification scenario the eyes of the world will be on Cyprus, and you can be damned sure that any violence or intimidation of minority TCs will be jumped on. Cyprus would be very easy to isolate e.g. suspension from the EU, if TCs were victimised. Thirdly, once the communities mix and become one, the propaganda myths that have existed for decades can be broken down and dismissed. So the current status quo and a future reunification scenario are very different.

By the way - the choice is not 'mine' - I am British, not GC. I only want to debate the issues to understand CyProb.

You should understand then that there is absolutely no interference by the TRNC on TCs crossing south, many have including myself only to find nothing special or different to the TRNC, OK given they are economically streets ahead of our isolated country the standard of living between TCs and GCs is not that different, have you been north? do you know any TC famalies? check it out for yourself.

TCs can move to this promised land tomorrow, the attractions or better life that you are trying to promote does not cut water with us there are many countires in the EU who are still impoverished and needing aid, I love Italy but would I live there? NO. The same goes for the GC south we do not belong there and unless a solution is found we will never belong to the "RoC" home for us with all it imperfections is the TRNC.

The myth about being eaten alive if we go south has long gone all we ask for is a solution that will lay down the guide lines that each side will adhere to under a BBF with political equality which is support by both the UN and EU....dont throw us into a furness all in the name of democracy and the EU hogwash (im not a great believer in the EU) we want to live peacefully in our own country not as second class citizens to the majority GCs, I lived in the Uk for over 30 years and experienced how Indians Blacks and Pakistanis were all made to feel second class and thats in a society which has developed far more that the GCs coupled together with our history we would not stand a chance so dont tell me it would be better for me when its me thats to suffer the consequencies, we will not take that leap of faith just because you tell us to do so, we want guarantees and safeguards not promises...

[insan]

As I previously told u, TCs were 1/3 of Cyprus population in the begining of the British Rule.. had the emigration rate been at a normal level, today; instead of 264.000 TRNC citizens comprise of TCs, Cyprus born settlers and Turkey born settlers etc, there would have been almost pure TCs of 250.000+ in TRNC and we would have faced the same economic problems.

Y'see Insan, we have a problem here. You've plucked an unsubstantiated figure from a period of history which suits your political, demographic and land claim desires. If I was a GC I'd say, 'Well back in the 1560s........' - fill in the gaps yourself!

Talisker, until 1946 Brits didn't touch property laws they inherited from Ottomans. They recognized Evkaf institution as the legal owner of all properties belonged to TCs. Until 1946, which TC population reduced from 1/3 to 1/5 of Cyprus' population; TCs were not able to sell their properties when emigrating. They had to restitute their properties to the legal land owner Evkaf.

Even in 60s agreements land ownership of Evkaf was recognized. The land ownership issue is not as simple as u simplified it.

R u a member of Scottish band Simple Minds? Although their name is Simple Minds, they produced dozens of pop-rock master pieces throughout 70s and 80s...

U need to study Cyprus' history a lot Talisker...

[Talisker]

As I previously told u, TCs were 1/3 of Cyprus population in the begining of the British Rule.. had the emigration rate been at a normal level, today; instead of 264.000 TRNC citizens comprise of TCs, Cyprus born settlers and Turkey born settlers etc, there would have been almost pure TCs of 250.000+ in TRNC and we would have faced the same economic problems.

Y'see Insan, we have a problem here. You've plucked an unsubstantiated figure from a period of history which suits your political, demographic and land claim desires. If I was a GC I'd say, 'Well back in the 1560s........' - fill in the gaps yourself!

Talisker, until 1946 Brits didn't touch property laws they inherited from Ottomans. They recognized Evkaf institution as the legal owner of all properties belonged to TCs. Until 1946, which TC population reduced from 1/3 to 1/5 of Cyprus' population; TCs were not able to sell their properties when emigrating. They had to restitute their properties to the legal land owner Evkaf.

Even in 60s agreements land ownership of Evkaf was recognized. The land ownership issue is not as simple as u simplified it.

R u a member of Scottish band Simple Minds? Although their name is Simple Minds, they produced dozens of pop-rock master pieces throughout 70s and 80s...

U need to study Cyprus' history a lot Talisker...

The solution could be very simple if you wanted it to be Insan, just as the breaching of the Berlin wall 20 years ago was very simple. You just choose to cloak the simple options with complicated, disputed historical nonsense, most of which is irrelevant.

Yes, I know Simple Minds. This seems appropriate for you.

[insan]

As I previously told u, TCs were 1/3 of Cyprus population in the begining of the British Rule.. had the emigration rate been at a normal level, today; instead of 264.000 TRNC citizens comprise of TCs, Cyprus born settlers and Turkey born settlers etc, there would have been almost pure TCs of 250.000+ in TRNC and we would have faced the same economic problems.

Y'see Insan, we have a problem here. You've plucked an unsubstantiated figure from a period of history which suits your political, demographic and land claim desires. If I was a GC I'd say, 'Well back in the 1560s........' - fill in the gaps yourself!

Talisker, until 1946 Brits didn't touch property laws they inherited from Ottomans. They recognized Evkaf institution as the legal owner of all properties belonged to TCs. Until 1946, which TC population reduced from 1/3 to 1/5 of Cyprus' population; TCs were not able to sell their properties when emigrating. They had to restitute their properties to the legal land owner Evkaf.

Even in 60s agreements land ownership of Evkaf was recognized. The land ownership issue is not as simple as u simplified it.

R u a member of Scottish band Simple Minds? Although their name is Simple Minds, they produced dozens of pop-rock master pieces throughout 70s and 80s...

U need to study Cyprus' history a lot Talisker...

The solution could be very simple if you wanted it to be Insan, just as the breaching of the Berlin wall 20 years ago was very simple. You just choose to cloak the simple options with complicated, disputed historical nonsense, most of which is irrelevant.

Yes, I know Simple Minds. This seems appropriate for you.

We will rock u, rock u little child.... east at easter...

[Talisker]

As far as Insan and Viewpoint are concerned the risks associated with reunification are not worth the following potential benefits.

The day after: Commercial opportunities following a solution to the Cyprus problem
http://www.prio.no/upload/Report-The%20day%20after.pdf

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Rapprochement between Greece and Turkey has led to a boom in commercial relations between the two countries that has transformed Greece into one of the top ten foreign investors in Turkey and has turned Turkey into one of the fastest growing markets for Greece, especially for tourism. Trade in goods and services between these two countries rose at an annual average rate of 25% in 2000-06, while the tourism market increased at an astonishing average rate of 275% per year.

This remarkable increase in business, despite centuries of mutual hostility, indicates that businesses quickly overcome feelings of mistrust as soon as political conditions improve. These developments, combined with Cyprus’s small size, suggest that the most lucrative opportunities for Cypriot businesses and the wider public after a solution lie beyond the island, namely in doing business with Turkey.

In order to give Cypriots on the island an idea of the value of these opportunities in money terms, we make projections for key sectors based on both a reunification and a continued division scenario. By subtracting the divided Cyprus from the reunified Cyprus scenario, we can calculate the annual peace dividend for each sector.

For our methodology, we take the growth rates in exports of goods and services between Turkey and Greece as an initial guide, as well as recent macroeconomic and sectoral trends in both parts of Cyprus. We pay particular attention to those sectors which have the most to gain from doing business with Turkey and from likely developments on the island after a solution. These sectors are tourism, shipping, construction and real estate, tertiary education, and accounting and legal services.
Deliberately avoiding the economics of any specific solution, we make one simple assumption: that the solution that would gain the majority support of both communities would be politically and economically sustainable.

According to our calculations, if Cyprus were reunited, the recurring annual benefits to Cypriot businesses in the first seven years after reunification would generate, on average:

■ EUR 510 million per year in additional exports of goods and services to Turkey, of which EUR 385 million would be tourism and EUR 22 million would be transport
■ EUR 618 million per year in total additional trade in goods and services with Turkey
■ EUR 393 million per year in new business for Cypriot construction companies
■ EUR 155 million per year in new business for Cypriot real estate companies
■ EUR 316 million per year (excl. new business from Turkey above) in new business for Cypriot tourism enterprises
■ EUR 162 million per year of additional revenue for the Cypriot university education sector
■ EUR 103 million per year in additional income for Cypriot accounting and legal firms
■ EUR 184 million in new foreign direct investment (excl. construction and real estate above) into Cyprus
■ The annual boost to business—the annual peace dividend—rises from EUR 283 million in Year 1 to EUR 3.9 billion, or 10% of GDP, by Year 7.
■ The peace dividend is the equivalent of approximately EUR 1.8 billion per year (over CYP 1 billion or more than YTL 3 billion).
■ If this is translated into the annual dividend per family (household) in Cyprus, it comes to an annual peace bonus of approximately EUR 5,500 per household per year. This is around 20% of the current average salary in the southern part of Cyprus and an estimated 40% of the average salary in the northern part of Cyprus.

This calculation is the least that can be expected since it focuses only on the sectors that stand most to gain. Moreover, the peace dividend calculated could be almost doubled if important regional developments, such as new business from the Baku-Ceyhan oil pipeline (EUR 1.3 billion) and the implementation of the Ankara Protocol (EUR 187 million per year)
are taken into account.

[insan]

As far as Insan and Viewpoint are concerned the risks associated with reunification are not worth the following potential benefits.

The day after: Commercial opportunities following a solution to the Cyprus problem
http://www.prio.no/upload/Report-The%20day%20after.pdf

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Rapprochement between Greece and Turkey has led to a boom in commercial relations between the two countries that has transformed Greece into one of the top ten foreign investors in Turkey and has turned Turkey into one of the fastest growing markets for Greece, especially for tourism. Trade in goods and services between these two countries rose at an annual average rate of 25% in 2000-06, while the tourism market increased at an astonishing average rate of 275% per year.

This remarkable increase in business, despite centuries of mutual hostility, indicates that businesses quickly overcome feelings of mistrust as soon as political conditions improve. These developments, combined with Cyprus’s small size, suggest that the most lucrative opportunities for Cypriot businesses and the wider public after a solution lie beyond the island, namely in doing business with Turkey.

In order to give Cypriots on the island an idea of the value of these opportunities in money terms, we make projections for key sectors based on both a reunification and a continued division scenario. By subtracting the divided Cyprus from the reunified Cyprus scenario, we can calculate the annual peace dividend for each sector.

For our methodology, we take the growth rates in exports of goods and services between Turkey and Greece as an initial guide, as well as recent macroeconomic and sectoral trends in both parts of Cyprus. We pay particular attention to those sectors which have the most to gain from doing business with Turkey and from likely developments on the island after a solution. These sectors are tourism, shipping, construction and real estate, tertiary education, and accounting and legal services.
Deliberately avoiding the economics of any specific solution, we make one simple assumption: that the solution that would gain the majority support of both communities would be politically and economically sustainable.

According to our calculations, if Cyprus were reunited, the recurring annual benefits to Cypriot businesses in the first seven years after reunification would generate, on average:

■ EUR 510 million per year in additional exports of goods and services to Turkey, of which EUR 385 million would be tourism and EUR 22 million would be transport
■ EUR 618 million per year in total additional trade in goods and services with Turkey
■ EUR 393 million per year in new business for Cypriot construction companies
■ EUR 155 million per year in new business for Cypriot real estate companies
■ EUR 316 million per year (excl. new business from Turkey above) in new business for Cypriot tourism enterprises
■ EUR 162 million per year of additional revenue for the Cypriot university education sector
■ EUR 103 million per year in additional income for Cypriot accounting and legal firms
■ EUR 184 million in new foreign direct investment (excl. construction and real estate above) into Cyprus
■ The annual boost to business—the annual peace dividend—rises from EUR 283 million in Year 1 to EUR 3.9 billion, or 10% of GDP, by Year 7.
■ The peace dividend is the equivalent of approximately EUR 1.8 billion per year (over CYP 1 billion or more than YTL 3 billion).
■ If this is translated into the annual dividend per family (household) in Cyprus, it comes to an annual peace bonus of approximately EUR 5,500 per household per year. This is around 20% of the current average salary in the southern part of Cyprus and an estimated 40% of the average salary in the northern part of Cyprus.

This calculation is the least that can be expected since it focuses only on the sectors that stand most to gain. Moreover, the peace dividend calculated could be almost doubled if important regional developments, such as new business from the Baku-Ceyhan oil pipeline (EUR 1.3 billion) and the implementation of the Ankara Protocol (EUR 187 million per year)
are taken into account.

Tell that 76% of GCs who rejected the Annan reunification Plan. I really wonder don't u really have anything the critisize GCs regarding the solution of cyprus problem.

[Talisker]

As far as Insan and Viewpoint are concerned the risks associated with reunification are not worth the following potential benefits.

The day after: Commercial opportunities following a solution to the Cyprus problem
http://www.prio.no/upload/Report-The%20day%20after.pdf

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Rapprochement between Greece and Turkey has led to a boom in commercial relations between the two countries that has transformed Greece into one of the top ten foreign investors in Turkey and has turned Turkey into one of the fastest growing markets for Greece, especially for tourism. Trade in goods and services between these two countries rose at an annual average rate of 25% in 2000-06, while the tourism market increased at an astonishing average rate of 275% per year.

This remarkable increase in business, despite centuries of mutual hostility, indicates that businesses quickly overcome feelings of mistrust as soon as political conditions improve. These developments, combined with Cyprus’s small size, suggest that the most lucrative opportunities for Cypriot businesses and the wider public after a solution lie beyond the island, namely in doing business with Turkey.

In order to give Cypriots on the island an idea of the value of these opportunities in money terms, we make projections for key sectors based on both a reunification and a continued division scenario. By subtracting the divided Cyprus from the reunified Cyprus scenario, we can calculate the annual peace dividend for each sector.

For our methodology, we take the growth rates in exports of goods and services between Turkey and Greece as an initial guide, as well as recent macroeconomic and sectoral trends in both parts of Cyprus. We pay particular attention to those sectors which have the most to gain from doing business with Turkey and from likely developments on the island after a solution. These sectors are tourism, shipping, construction and real estate, tertiary education, and accounting and legal services.
Deliberately avoiding the economics of any specific solution, we make one simple assumption: that the solution that would gain the majority support of both communities would be politically and economically sustainable.

According to our calculations, if Cyprus were reunited, the recurring annual benefits to Cypriot businesses in the first seven years after reunification would generate, on average:

■ EUR 510 million per year in additional exports of goods and services to Turkey, of which EUR 385 million would be tourism and EUR 22 million would be transport
■ EUR 618 million per year in total additional trade in goods and services with Turkey
■ EUR 393 million per year in new business for Cypriot construction companies
■ EUR 155 million per year in new business for Cypriot real estate companies
■ EUR 316 million per year (excl. new business from Turkey above) in new business for Cypriot tourism enterprises
■ EUR 162 million per year of additional revenue for the Cypriot university education sector
■ EUR 103 million per year in additional income for Cypriot accounting and legal firms
■ EUR 184 million in new foreign direct investment (excl. construction and real estate above) into Cyprus
■ The annual boost to business—the annual peace dividend—rises from EUR 283 million in Year 1 to EUR 3.9 billion, or 10% of GDP, by Year 7.
■ The peace dividend is the equivalent of approximately EUR 1.8 billion per year (over CYP 1 billion or more than YTL 3 billion).
■ If this is translated into the annual dividend per family (household) in Cyprus, it comes to an annual peace bonus of approximately EUR 5,500 per household per year. This is around 20% of the current average salary in the southern part of Cyprus and an estimated 40% of the average salary in the northern part of Cyprus.

This calculation is the least that can be expected since it focuses only on the sectors that stand most to gain. Moreover, the peace dividend calculated could be almost doubled if important regional developments, such as new business from the Baku-Ceyhan oil pipeline (EUR 1.3 billion) and the implementation of the Ankara Protocol (EUR 187 million per year)
are taken into account.

Tell that 76% of GCs who rejected the Annan reunification Plan. I really wonder don't u really have anything the critisize GCs regarding the solution of cyprus problem.

Way I see it is they are already a financially viable, legitimate, internationally-recognised nation who are making major advances in areas such as education - Universities, colleges, etc and finance sector - thus providing opportunities for the coming generations. The TCs however, are the ones in a corner - isolated, increasingly economically disadvantaged compared with those in the south, and in danger of losing identity. For GCs it is not a financial necessity to see a reunified Cyprus - it is a matter of righting a wrong and the Annan plan did not allow for that.

[insan]

As far as Insan and Viewpoint are concerned the risks associated with reunification are not worth the following potential benefits.

The day after: Commercial opportunities following a solution to the Cyprus problem
http://www.prio.no/upload/Report-The%20day%20after.pdf

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Rapprochement between Greece and Turkey has led to a boom in commercial relations between the two countries that has transformed Greece into one of the top ten foreign investors in Turkey and has turned Turkey into one of the fastest growing markets for Greece, especially for tourism. Trade in goods and services between these two countries rose at an annual average rate of 25% in 2000-06, while the tourism market increased at an astonishing average rate of 275% per year.

This remarkable increase in business, despite centuries of mutual hostility, indicates that businesses quickly overcome feelings of mistrust as soon as political conditions improve. These developments, combined with Cyprus’s small size, suggest that the most lucrative opportunities for Cypriot businesses and the wider public after a solution lie beyond the island, namely in doing business with Turkey.

In order to give Cypriots on the island an idea of the value of these opportunities in money terms, we make projections for key sectors based on both a reunification and a continued division scenario. By subtracting the divided Cyprus from the reunified Cyprus scenario, we can calculate the annual peace dividend for each sector.

For our methodology, we take the growth rates in exports of goods and services between Turkey and Greece as an initial guide, as well as recent macroeconomic and sectoral trends in both parts of Cyprus. We pay particular attention to those sectors which have the most to gain from doing business with Turkey and from likely developments on the island after a solution. These sectors are tourism, shipping, construction and real estate, tertiary education, and accounting and legal services.
Deliberately avoiding the economics of any specific solution, we make one simple assumption: that the solution that would gain the majority support of both communities would be politically and economically sustainable.

According to our calculations, if Cyprus were reunited, the recurring annual benefits to Cypriot businesses in the first seven years after reunification would generate, on average:

■ EUR 510 million per year in additional exports of goods and services to Turkey, of which EUR 385 million would be tourism and EUR 22 million would be transport
■ EUR 618 million per year in total additional trade in goods and services with Turkey
■ EUR 393 million per year in new business for Cypriot construction companies
■ EUR 155 million per year in new business for Cypriot real estate companies
■ EUR 316 million per year (excl. new business from Turkey above) in new business for Cypriot tourism enterprises
■ EUR 162 million per year of additional revenue for the Cypriot university education sector
■ EUR 103 million per year in additional income for Cypriot accounting and legal firms
■ EUR 184 million in new foreign direct investment (excl. construction and real estate above) into Cyprus
■ The annual boost to business—the annual peace dividend—rises from EUR 283 million in Year 1 to EUR 3.9 billion, or 10% of GDP, by Year 7.
■ The peace dividend is the equivalent of approximately EUR 1.8 billion per year (over CYP 1 billion or more than YTL 3 billion).
■ If this is translated into the annual dividend per family (household) in Cyprus, it comes to an annual peace bonus of approximately EUR 5,500 per household per year. This is around 20% of the current average salary in the southern part of Cyprus and an estimated 40% of the average salary in the northern part of Cyprus.

This calculation is the least that can be expected since it focuses only on the sectors that stand most to gain. Moreover, the peace dividend calculated could be almost doubled if important regional developments, such as new business from the Baku-Ceyhan oil pipeline (EUR 1.3 billion) and the implementation of the Ankara Protocol (EUR 187 million per year)
are taken into account.

Tell that 76% of GCs who rejected the Annan reunification Plan. I really wonder don't u really have anything the critisize GCs regarding the solution of cyprus problem.

Way I see it is they are already a financially viable, legitimate, internationally-recognised nation who are making major advances in areas such as education - Universities, colleges, etc and finance sector - thus providing opportunities for the coming generations. The TCs however, are the ones in a corner - isolated, increasingly economically disadvantaged compared with those in the south, and in danger of losing identity. For GCs it is not a financial necessity to see a reunified Cyprus - it is a matter of righting a wrong and the Annan plan did not allow for that.

They struggled for what they have now for thousands of years. TC struggle has nearly completed it's first century.

In just 1 or 2 years time we will overcome the biggest obstacle(isolation) infront of us... The rest will follow and we will be able to rapidly develop in all fields.

The watch TRNC when diaspora TCs return with their investments. Majority of settlers absorbed TC cultural idendity and their Cyprus born children naturally obtained TC cultural idendity too.

U can come to North and examine it by urself if u don't believe me... Be sure Halil will assist u...

[Malapapa]

TC struggle has nearly completed it's first century.

In just 1 or 2 years time we will overcome the biggest obstacle(isolation) infront of us... The rest will follow and we will be able to rapidly develop in all fields.

... on Planet insan.