BirKibrisli wrote:Piratis wrote:BirKibrisli wrote:I, Bir, appreciate that GCs lived their lives in fear and as second category people under foreign empires for centuries...I understand that they had every right to ask for their human and democratic rights and their demand to unite Cyprus with Greece was a legitimate one, even thought we didn't agree with it. We were mislead by foreign Imperialists who made us fear of Enosis and promised to us privileges on the expense of all other Cypriots, and drove us to attack our compatriots and start the inter-communal conflict. In 1960 the Imperialists imposed on Cyprus a constitution which offered to us some of the privileges previously offered. When in 1963 Makarios proposed to remove some of those privileges we flat out refused, abandoned the government and the conflict re-started. We didn't get as much help from Turkey as we expected, and being the smaller and weaker group we suffered more during this conflict. The GCs were left alone to take control of the whole government and use it for their own benefit and we were pushed on the corner. The coup happened in 1974 and Turkey found the excuse they were waiting for to put into action their partition plan. 1000s were killed and 100s of thousands ethnically cleansed. As it was the case since the 50s, our leadership continued to be the puppet of Turkey and the "average TC" was convinced that a form of partition based on ethnic cleansing and human rights violations is the only possible "solution", something which I recognize as wrong. I accept that more human rights violations can not be part of any real solution but will only help to maintain the antagonism and hate between the two sides. I do not support the collective punishment of whole communities based on one sided interpretations of the past. I believe that the least I can do to show empathy and compassion to people is to recognize their human rights and accept them as my equal compatriots without any kind of racist discrimination. From now on, I Bir, will support what is just and right for Cyprus and the Cypriot people as I did before, and I will stop supporting the plans of Imperialists that aim to legalize the division and the human rights violations against the people of my country." I have no problem signing off on this Piratis..I agree with every word you wrote above...
But you couldn't bring yourself to do the same for me...
One sided or heavily qualified empathy and compassion will not help us find a solution....
So which is the
truth Bir? What you wrote or what you agreed with me later? Because both things can not be true at the same time. While there is some overlap between the two, certain things are
contradictory and you can not support both at the same time.
I didn't ask you for empathy or compassion. I asked you for the
truth.
Here lies the dilemma,Piratis...When it comes to civil war,and inter-ethnic conflict,there is not one single truth...Each side have their own truth...You have failed to grasp the significance of accepting the other sides truth,and make the necessary adjustment in your attitude...There are no absolutes here...
The truth is just one Bir. It is possible that we do not know the whole truth and it is possible that some of what we know might be false, I fully accept this. But for two contradictory things to be true at the same time is something logically impossible.
I seek the truth and if a learn something new I make the necessary adjustments. For example you are one of the people I trust and learn from regarding events of the past. We might disagree on some interpretations and about what should happen in the future, but I don't believe I ever disputed your word when it came to historical facts.
You can't say,as i have heard you say many times,more GCs have died in this conflict hence all the blame belongs to the TCs...Or you have only suffered for so many years,but we have been suffering for much longer,hence you have no right to demand empathy or compassion...
You see Bir, here is exactly where you get me
total wrong. First of all I don't care to appropriate blame because I don't want to punish anybody. Secondly I
never said that
all the blame belongs to the TCs!
When certain people (e.g. VP) distorts the past and he is trying to put all the blame on us in order to excuse why TCs should be rewarded and GCs punished yet again,
only then I am
forced to play the blame appropriation game.
Or Enosis was our legitimate demand,you have been tricked into opposing it,hence you are responsible solely for the results...
Yes, enosis was our legitimate demand, but I never said that TCs are solely to blame. In fact I always say that TCs were just the puppets (and they continue to be). How much blame can puppets have? Most blame goes to the masterminds of the crime, who were the usual Imperialist forces who want a piece of Cyprus for themselves.
What you need to do is to stop these distorted value judgements,and accept that both sides are equally responsible for the mess we are in ...
I don't make any value judgments Bir. As I said I don't want to appropriate blame because I don't want to punish anybody. I would appropriate blame only if some others insist that this blame appropriation needs to be done, and in that case the blame appropriation needs to be done based on the historical facts. In that case many others, apart from Cypriots, will have the lions share.
Once you truly appreciate that ENOSIS meant a death sentence for the TCs,you cannot keep on blaming them for their actions...
Here is where we disagree 100%. On what do you base this statement. I understand that in the 1950s you were mislead to feel in that way and you reacted based on what you felt. Fine. But to say the same thing in 2010?? Based on what? Do you truly believe that TCs would be killed if Cyprus was united with Greece??
Desperate people do desperate things...If people think they are drownig they will grasp onto anything, even a snake...When people are in physical survival mode they don't give a damn about democracy or human rights of their "enemy"...They do what must be done to save their lives...
I accept this Bir.
What you need to do now is go back and read the words that I wrote for you,and find the will and the courage to post it...Even though it is not your "truth",by signing it you are signalling that you are willing to listen,to understand,and to compromise,to change your inflexible attitude towards a solution...
Bir, I am willing to listen, to understand and to compromise (as long as it is not compromise on fundamental principles). But I can not sing something which I do not believe to be true. That would be dishonest.
If you want me to accept something as the truth, then you have to convince me about it.
The best the TCs will agree to now,or will be allow to agree to by the other interested parties is a BBF,which safeguards the physical and political survival of the minority TCs...
There are other ways to safeguard the physical and political survival of the TCs. BBF was not created for this reason. BBF could be otherwise called "semi-partition" and it would be a result of the balance of power and not of the needs of TCs. Still, we accept that BBF can be some sort of solution, if the content is right (e.g. proportional distribution of land, coastline and power).
Down the track,when people learn to trust each other,other solutions might become possible....
Sorry but this is Utopian Bir, and it is also dangerous if people accept some bad solution with the hope that it will be changed. It will be 1963 all over again. Even Belgium could split in some point in the future, and those people never had the kind of problems we did.
Once we legalize the "Greek Cyprus" - "Turkish Cyprus" division, then the only way a BBF can change is by a total split, like it happened in Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia etc. So please don't feed people with false hopes.
To be honest,I do not really know what the "truth" is in this matter...The waters have been muddied for a long time...Each historical fact or event have multiple interpretations which are often contradictory,as you say...But that is not imoprtant...What is imortant is the willingness to respect the other sides "truth",and show compassion for their situation...You and some others are not able to do this...It is simply a mountain too high to climb....So you are getting the same treatment from the TCs...Viewpoint is doing exactly what you are doing...He is putting his sides "truths" without a second thought about yours...I have been trying to point out that you are both making a big mistake...This is no way to find a solution...
As they say opinions (and interpretations, I add) are like assholes. Everybody can have one. I accept historical facts from all sites, and I take what you say as facts as well, regardless if those facts point to crimes committed by GCs. Maybe you forgot how VP was treating you some months ago ...
But you keep missing the most important difference between me and VP. VP is trying to use his own distorted version of the past as an excuse for yet more human rights violations against us. On the other hand I always say that nobody should be punished and nobody rewarded based on what happened in the past. And if the truth is muddy as you say then one more reason why we should not try to use events of the past in order to excuse collective punishments against whole communities. I am really sad that you can not see this point
I appreciate the fact that you have acknowledged your belief that the TCs are the biggest losers in this tragedy,closely followed by the GCs....Perhaps the time has come to stop talking about who lost more or less,and accept the fact that both communities,all Cypriots lost big time in this bloody conflict...
I agree.
That we must work together,helping each other,to undo all the emotional damage of the past events,and find a compromise solution to get us over the line for now...
I agree Bir, but if compromises need to be made, then they should be made from all. A "solution" that punishes the GCs and rewards the TCs is not a real solution and it will not have the results we both want, but the contrary.
