Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

What courage r u asking from TCs? Accepting minority status in Cyprus?

Forget abt it... neither overwhelming majority of TCs wish accepting minority status nor Turks.

Why not? Jews in Germany are in the minority (~200,000 in a population of > 80 million). As a tiny minority it could be argued they are more vulnerable than TCs as 18% of total Cypriot population. The point is to have courage and faith in the legal and judicial processes of the reunified state, and thereby reap the benefits of becoming part of an economically vibrant society that is part of the international community.

Talisker, it is obvious that u knw a little abt TC history in Cyprus. There's nothing for comparing jew minority of Germany and TC community in Cyprus.

The current situation in Cyprus is the consequence of the last 100+ years. TCs r well knowledged abt their history in Cyprus. The roots of TC struggle dates back when Britain unilaterally annex Cyprus into it's territory by violating the agreement between GB and Ottaman Empire.

It's the day TC struggle in Cyprus started. Mainly it has nothing to do with genocide allegations...

Ur logic comparing Jews of Germany with TCs of Cyprus is completely baseless...

Are you saying the TC history is worse than that of Jews in Germany?

I'm talking general principles - looking forward and not backwards, courage to take the risks which lead to greater prosperity and opportunity for future generations, integrating into accepted democratic mechanisms........none of these applicable to TCs?

Talisker, for a moment imagine that during the dissolution of empires and establishment of nation states, there was no British rule in cyprus and just like Greeks and Turks had established their nation states; in Cyprus GCs and TC would have establish their nation states just like almost every nation established their nation states. In the begining of British Rule, TC population was 1/3 of Cyprus population. This means we have the right to establish our nation state on 1/3 of Cyprus territory if GCs continue pursueing the policy considering TCs a minority in Cyprus that they have always considered TCs as a minority... not only a minority but as "remnants of Ottoman Turks", "potential barbarians", "potential Turkish spies", "Atillas" of Cyprus.

The mentality of their ruling class is still the same... Since they don't want a politically equal TC nation in Cyprus; they must bear the consequences...

Because of various reasons; mainly for the stability of NATO and political instabilities in Turkey and Greece; we TCs too bear the consequences of GC insistence on making Cyprus an island solely ruled by Greeks and GCs...

However, it has been a decade that in Turkey there's stability and stability in Balkans also support our solution thesis. In 1 to 2 years new shift of balance of the powers in middle east and whole of Asia will make our hand even much stronger to solve Cyprus problem in frame of our thesis.

A resolved Cyprus problem and a recognized TRNC r not our only problems... as a consequence of unsuitable circimstances the last 60-70 years TCs have been in; caused us a much losses of development in all fields but when Cyprus problem solved it won't be difficult for us to rapidly develop in all fields...

Insan, I like your posts, you have a sense of humour, wear your heart on your sleeve, and maybe you really do believe the nonsense you write in Cyprob threads. Here you are asking me to 'imagine' a scenario from the past - basically you are trying to re-write history, and historical revisionism is extremely dangerous. I'm asking myself - are you 'the brain-washed' (Deniz's 'ordinary TC?') or 'the brain-washer' (Deniz's 'nationalist zealot?')?.

Your description of a naturally evolved divided Cyprus consisting of separate Greek and Turkish states, but still-born through British intervention, is complete fantasy! As, I suggest, is 'Insan's insight' into the future format of a 'resolved Cyprus problem' and the vague geopolitical circumstances that will bring this about.

Let's examine who is zealot and who is not...

What u trying to tell us Talisker?

Answer these questions please:

1- TCs(read as then Ottoman Turks) were against Enosis during Ottoman times. Was it a mistake or a natural attitude?

2- TCs were against Enosis and majority rule in local legislative assembly during British Rule(one of the closest ally of then the Ottoman Empire)... was it a mistake or TCs were right to ask equal legislative power?

3- Brits unilaterally annexed Cyprus with GB in 1914... Were TCs right to react Britain and ask recession of Cyprus to Turks or they should applaud Brits for annexing Cyprus to GB?

4- In 50s the struggle of 2 nations in Cyprus had become an armed struggle when EOKA was armed to annex Cyprus with Greece... Should TMT not armed to struggle for Taksim? Should they join EOKA to struggle annexing Cyprus with Greece? Why should TMT join EOKA to annex Cyprus with Greece and not to struggle for Taksim.

5- In 60s, Makarios attempted to ammend the constitution and degrade TCs into a minority... his attempt led to tensions and sparked the fire of a new intercommunal armed struggle... Was it a mistake not accepting minority status?

6- In 1968-1971, leaders of 2 communities started to negotiate abt Makarios 13 points... Denktash accepted ammendment of allmost all points Makarios proposed, except minority status... There had been almost nothing left unfair in Cyprus constitution as a result of 3 years lasted talks... Was it a mistake not accepting minority status?

Where did TC leadership went wrong, Talisker? If u tell me they went wrong by not accepting minority status since British Rule began in Cyprus; then u talk nonsense.

[Talisker]

What courage r u asking from TCs? Accepting minority status in Cyprus?

Forget abt it... neither overwhelming majority of TCs wish accepting minority status nor Turks.

Why not? Jews in Germany are in the minority (~200,000 in a population of > 80 million). As a tiny minority it could be argued they are more vulnerable than TCs as 18% of total Cypriot population. The point is to have courage and faith in the legal and judicial processes of the reunified state, and thereby reap the benefits of becoming part of an economically vibrant society that is part of the international community.

Talisker, it is obvious that u knw a little abt TC history in Cyprus. There's nothing for comparing jew minority of Germany and TC community in Cyprus.

The current situation in Cyprus is the consequence of the last 100+ years. TCs r well knowledged abt their history in Cyprus. The roots of TC struggle dates back when Britain unilaterally annex Cyprus into it's territory by violating the agreement between GB and Ottaman Empire.

It's the day TC struggle in Cyprus started. Mainly it has nothing to do with genocide allegations...

Ur logic comparing Jews of Germany with TCs of Cyprus is completely baseless...

Are you saying the TC history is worse than that of Jews in Germany?

I'm talking general principles - looking forward and not backwards, courage to take the risks which lead to greater prosperity and opportunity for future generations, integrating into accepted democratic mechanisms........none of these applicable to TCs?

Talisker, for a moment imagine that during the dissolution of empires and establishment of nation states, there was no British rule in cyprus and just like Greeks and Turks had established their nation states; in Cyprus GCs and TC would have establish their nation states just like almost every nation established their nation states. In the begining of British Rule, TC population was 1/3 of Cyprus population. This means we have the right to establish our nation state on 1/3 of Cyprus territory if GCs continue pursueing the policy considering TCs a minority in Cyprus that they have always considered TCs as a minority... not only a minority but as "remnants of Ottoman Turks", "potential barbarians", "potential Turkish spies", "Atillas" of Cyprus.

The mentality of their ruling class is still the same... Since they don't want a politically equal TC nation in Cyprus; they must bear the consequences...

Because of various reasons; mainly for the stability of NATO and political instabilities in Turkey and Greece; we TCs too bear the consequences of GC insistence on making Cyprus an island solely ruled by Greeks and GCs...

However, it has been a decade that in Turkey there's stability and stability in Balkans also support our solution thesis. In 1 to 2 years new shift of balance of the powers in middle east and whole of Asia will make our hand even much stronger to solve Cyprus problem in frame of our thesis.

A resolved Cyprus problem and a recognized TRNC r not our only problems... as a consequence of unsuitable circimstances the last 60-70 years TCs have been in; caused us a much losses of development in all fields but when Cyprus problem solved it won't be difficult for us to rapidly develop in all fields...

Insan, I like your posts, you have a sense of humour, wear your heart on your sleeve, and maybe you really do believe the nonsense you write in Cyprob threads. Here you are asking me to 'imagine' a scenario from the past - basically you are trying to re-write history, and historical revisionism is extremely dangerous. I'm asking myself - are you 'the brain-washed' (Deniz's 'ordinary TC?') or 'the brain-washer' (Deniz's 'nationalist zealot?')?.

Your description of a naturally evolved divided Cyprus consisting of separate Greek and Turkish states, but still-born through British intervention, is complete fantasy! As, I suggest, is 'Insan's insight' into the future format of a 'resolved Cyprus problem' and the vague geopolitical circumstances that will bring this about.

Let's examine who is zealot and who is not...

What u trying to tell us Talisker?

Answer these questions please:

1- TCs(read as then Ottoman Turks) were against Enosis during Ottoman times. Was it a mistake or a natural attitude?

2- TCs were against Enosis and majority rule in local legislative assembly during British Rule(one of the closest ally of then the Ottoman Empire)... was it a mistake or TCs were right to ask equal legislative power?

3- Brits unilaterally annexed Cyprus with GB in 1914... Were TCs right to react Britain and ask recession of Cyprus to Turks or they should applaud Brits for annexing Cyprus to GB?

4- In 50s the struggle of 2 nations in Cyprus had become an armed struggle when EOKA was armed to annex Cyprus with Greece... Should TMT not armed to struggle for Taksim? Should they join EOKA to struggle annexing Cyprus with Greece? Why should TMT join EOKA to annex Cyprus with Greece and not to struggle for Taksim.

5- In 60s, Makarios attempted to ammend the constitution and degrade TCs into a minority... his attempt led to tensions and sparked the fire of a new intercommunal armed struggle... Was it a mistake not accepting minority status?

6- In 1968-1971, leaders of 2 communities started to negotiate abt Makarios 13 points... Denktash accepted ammendment of allmost all points Makarios proposed, except minority status... There had been almost nothing left unfair in Cyprus constitution as a result of 3 years lasted talks... Was it a mistake not accepting minority status?

Where did TC leadership went wrong, Talisker? If u tell me they went wrong by not accepting minority status since British Rule began in Cyprus; then u talk nonsense.

All your questions are answered through application of democratic principles. If Cyprus is a single state, which it was and should be, then the majority view should prevail, and the minority view, though relevant and worthy of consideration, will not be applied to either the majority or to a subset within the population. If you want Taksim, go to a country where Taksim is the ideology. Do you want to be a Cypriot or do you want Taksim? Your problem is the rejection of the concept of majority rule.

Every democratic nation state should have a constitution where minority rights are protected, but those rights cannot override the wishes of the majority. For example, as a Scot living in England I am in the minority. Of course, although Scots only make up 10% of the UK population, within a democratic system it is possible, as is currently the case, for a Scot to rise to the top and become Prime Minister (this should provide hope for TCs in a reunited Cypriot nation). I happen to vote for a party that will probably never gain power in the UK. So, my views are a minority view, and within a democracy I must live to the views of the majority. If these things bother me enough I would become politically active and try to win the intellectual arguments, persuade more and more people to vote for my views, and then become the majority so that my views and policies became reality. TCs should first of all be Cypriots who vote for policies they believe in, which will benefit themselves and future generations. If you want (i) to be Cypriot, and (ii) to live with a Taksim ideology, then you should be trying to persuade the majority of Cypriots to vote for that ideology within a democratic environment. However, the types of policies most 'normal' TCs will be interested in would most likely be economic matters, trade, education, etc and will be exactly the same issues as GCs will be considering. It would be better to think positively on these issues, along with your fellow Cypriots, than solely champion an illegal, isolationist cause which is taking you backwards.

With regard to your questions - once again you are looking backwards and using 'your' version of history as an excuse. If those Jews currently living in Germany only looked backwards not a single one of them would live there - however, they have balanced the advantages of living in a democratic and prosperous society against the historical genocide issues and realised the security is there for them within the laws and values of Germany as it now is. I'd argue that TC should be asking themselves those same questions - the advantages of life in a democratic, reunited Cyprus as opposed to isolation against perceived injustices in the past (used as excuses for invasion and stealing of property and ethnic cleansing).

[insan]

What courage r u asking from TCs? Accepting minority status in Cyprus?

Forget abt it... neither overwhelming majority of TCs wish accepting minority status nor Turks.

Why not? Jews in Germany are in the minority (~200,000 in a population of > 80 million). As a tiny minority it could be argued they are more vulnerable than TCs as 18% of total Cypriot population. The point is to have courage and faith in the legal and judicial processes of the reunified state, and thereby reap the benefits of becoming part of an economically vibrant society that is part of the international community.

Talisker, it is obvious that u knw a little abt TC history in Cyprus. There's nothing for comparing jew minority of Germany and TC community in Cyprus.

The current situation in Cyprus is the consequence of the last 100+ years. TCs r well knowledged abt their history in Cyprus. The roots of TC struggle dates back when Britain unilaterally annex Cyprus into it's territory by violating the agreement between GB and Ottaman Empire.

It's the day TC struggle in Cyprus started. Mainly it has nothing to do with genocide allegations...

Ur logic comparing Jews of Germany with TCs of Cyprus is completely baseless...

Are you saying the TC history is worse than that of Jews in Germany?

I'm talking general principles - looking forward and not backwards, courage to take the risks which lead to greater prosperity and opportunity for future generations, integrating into accepted democratic mechanisms........none of these applicable to TCs?

Talisker, for a moment imagine that during the dissolution of empires and establishment of nation states, there was no British rule in cyprus and just like Greeks and Turks had established their nation states; in Cyprus GCs and TC would have establish their nation states just like almost every nation established their nation states. In the begining of British Rule, TC population was 1/3 of Cyprus population. This means we have the right to establish our nation state on 1/3 of Cyprus territory if GCs continue pursueing the policy considering TCs a minority in Cyprus that they have always considered TCs as a minority... not only a minority but as "remnants of Ottoman Turks", "potential barbarians", "potential Turkish spies", "Atillas" of Cyprus.

The mentality of their ruling class is still the same... Since they don't want a politically equal TC nation in Cyprus; they must bear the consequences...

Because of various reasons; mainly for the stability of NATO and political instabilities in Turkey and Greece; we TCs too bear the consequences of GC insistence on making Cyprus an island solely ruled by Greeks and GCs...

However, it has been a decade that in Turkey there's stability and stability in Balkans also support our solution thesis. In 1 to 2 years new shift of balance of the powers in middle east and whole of Asia will make our hand even much stronger to solve Cyprus problem in frame of our thesis.

A resolved Cyprus problem and a recognized TRNC r not our only problems... as a consequence of unsuitable circimstances the last 60-70 years TCs have been in; caused us a much losses of development in all fields but when Cyprus problem solved it won't be difficult for us to rapidly develop in all fields...

Insan, I like your posts, you have a sense of humour, wear your heart on your sleeve, and maybe you really do believe the nonsense you write in Cyprob threads. Here you are asking me to 'imagine' a scenario from the past - basically you are trying to re-write history, and historical revisionism is extremely dangerous. I'm asking myself - are you 'the brain-washed' (Deniz's 'ordinary TC?') or 'the brain-washer' (Deniz's 'nationalist zealot?')?.

Your description of a naturally evolved divided Cyprus consisting of separate Greek and Turkish states, but still-born through British intervention, is complete fantasy! As, I suggest, is 'Insan's insight' into the future format of a 'resolved Cyprus problem' and the vague geopolitical circumstances that will bring this about.

Let's examine who is zealot and who is not...

What u trying to tell us Talisker?

Answer these questions please:

1- TCs(read as then Ottoman Turks) were against Enosis during Ottoman times. Was it a mistake or a natural attitude?

2- TCs were against Enosis and majority rule in local legislative assembly during British Rule(one of the closest ally of then the Ottoman Empire)... was it a mistake or TCs were right to ask equal legislative power?

3- Brits unilaterally annexed Cyprus with GB in 1914... Were TCs right to react Britain and ask recession of Cyprus to Turks or they should applaud Brits for annexing Cyprus to GB?

4- In 50s the struggle of 2 nations in Cyprus had become an armed struggle when EOKA was armed to annex Cyprus with Greece... Should TMT not armed to struggle for Taksim? Should they join EOKA to struggle annexing Cyprus with Greece? Why should TMT join EOKA to annex Cyprus with Greece and not to struggle for Taksim.

5- In 60s, Makarios attempted to ammend the constitution and degrade TCs into a minority... his attempt led to tensions and sparked the fire of a new intercommunal armed struggle... Was it a mistake not accepting minority status?

6- In 1968-1971, leaders of 2 communities started to negotiate abt Makarios 13 points... Denktash accepted ammendment of allmost all points Makarios proposed, except minority status... There had been almost nothing left unfair in Cyprus constitution as a result of 3 years lasted talks... Was it a mistake not accepting minority status?

Where did TC leadership went wrong, Talisker? If u tell me they went wrong by not accepting minority status since British Rule began in Cyprus; then u talk nonsense.

All your questions are answered through application of democratic principles. If Cyprus is a single state, which it was and should be, then the majority view should prevail, and the minority view, though relevant and worthy of consideration, will not be applied to either the majority or to a subset within the population. If you want Taksim, go to a country where Taksim is the ideology. Do you want to be a Cypriot or do you want Taksim? Your problem is the rejection of the concept of majority rule.

Every democratic nation state should have a constitution where minority rights are protected, but those rights cannot override the wishes of the majority. For example, as a Scot living in England I am in the minority. Of course, although Scots only make up 10% of the UK population, within a democratic system it is possible, as is currently the case, for a Scot to rise to the top and become Prime Minister (this should provide hope for TCs in a reunited Cypriot nation). I happen to vote for a party that will probably never gain power in the UK. So, my views are a minority view, and within a democracy I must live to the views of the majority. If these things bother me enough I would become politically active and try to win the intellectual arguments, persuade more and more people to vote for my views, and then become the majority so that my views and policies became reality. TCs should first of all be Cypriots who vote for policies they believe in, which will benefit themselves and future generations. If you want (i) to be Cypriot, and (ii) to live with a Taksim ideology, then you should be trying to persuade the majority of Cypriots to vote for that ideology within a democratic environment. However, the types of policies most 'normal' TCs will be interested in would most likely be economic matters, trade, education, etc and will be exactly the same issues as GCs will be considering. It would be better to think positively on these issues, along with your fellow Cypriots, than solely champion an illegal, isolationist cause which is taking you backwards.

With regard to your questions - once again you are looking backwards and using 'your' version of history as an excuse. If those Jews currently living in Germany only looked backwards not a single one of them would live there - however, they have balanced the advantages of living in a democratic and prosperous society against the historical genocide issues and realised the security is there for them within the laws and values of Germany as it now is. I'd argue that TC should be asking themselves those same questions - the advantages of life in a democratic, reunited Cyprus as opposed to isolation against perceived injustices in the past (used as excuses for invasion and stealing of property and ethnic cleansing).

U talk irrelevant and waste my time... soon my views will be proven true and then again we will talk abt it...

[insan]

Ahhh forgot to add... as long as u support GC thesis no one will shout at u "bugger off foreigner, who r u to tell Cypriots what to do!"

Play the game how it suits... ridiculous!

[Expatkiwi]

Yes, that is apparent, and by hiding behind the myths of genocide, peace operations and Turkish protection, and demands for special status, they excuse themselves from the basic facts - land seizure by force, ethnic cleansing in the north, the 'pariah' status afforded by the international community. I'd argue the evidence suggests this will lead to self-imposed genocide.

Talikser, you're forgetting that the Turkish Cypriot position is based on past precedents. The situation in Crete when the Turkish minority there were expunged, the post WWI Greek invasion of Turkey, to name but two. How are you going to convince Turkish Cypriots that these parts of Greek-Turkish history are not going to repeat?

[Talisker]

Ahhh forgot to add... as long as u support GC thesis no one will shout at u "bugger off foreigner, who r u to tell Cypriots what to do!"

Play the game how it suits... ridiculous!

You know I'm right, you just can't admit it!

C'mon, show some of that German Jewish courage! Fight for reunification - your children and grandchildren will thank you for it..........

[Viewpoint]

Talisker you have a long way to go in understanding TC psychology, its not the system we do not trust but those that apply it, GCs are the masters at manipulating things to a degree where they can turn you into second class citizens but veil it in camaflouge it all in the name of democracy namely majority rule being GC rule. What we want is a balance that will not allow you act as you wish to manipulate a system which is wide open to interpretation thats why BBF and political equality is vital, why do you not want to understand this structure do you have hidden agendas or aims that will manipulate the system to our disadvantage, if this was not the case you would accept this without hinderence as the safeguards and guarantees will over time become redundent and useless, you obviously want that free hand to do as you wish...this we will never allow you, we feel so strongly that even union with Turkey is a better option then capitulating to becoming just another minority in a GC state.

[Oracle]

All your questions are answered through application of democratic principles. If Cyprus is a single state, which it was and should be, then the majority view should prevail, and the minority view, though relevant and worthy of consideration, will not be applied to either the majority or to a subset within the population. If you want Taksim, go to a country where Taksim is the ideology. Do you want to be a Cypriot or do you want Taksim? Your problem is the rejection of the concept of majority rule.

Every democratic nation state should have a constitution where minority rights are protected, but those rights cannot override the wishes of the majority. For example, as a Scot living in England I am in the minority. Of course, although Scots only make up 10% of the UK population, within a democratic system it is possible, as is currently the case, for a Scot to rise to the top and become Prime Minister (this should provide hope for TCs in a reunited Cypriot nation). I happen to vote for a party that will probably never gain power in the UK. So, my views are a minority view, and within a democracy I must live to the views of the majority. If these things bother me enough I would become politically active and try to win the intellectual arguments, persuade more and more people to vote for my views, and then become the majority so that my views and policies became reality. TCs should first of all be Cypriots who vote for policies they believe in, which will benefit themselves and future generations. If you want (i) to be Cypriot, and (ii) to live with a Taksim ideology, then you should be trying to persuade the majority of Cypriots to vote for that ideology within a democratic environment. However, the types of policies most 'normal' TCs will be interested in would most likely be economic matters, trade, education, etc and will be exactly the same issues as GCs will be considering. It would be better to think positively on these issues, along with your fellow Cypriots, than solely champion an illegal, isolationist cause which is taking you backwards.

With regard to your questions - once again you are looking backwards and using 'your' version of history as an excuse. If those Jews currently living in Germany only looked backwards not a single one of them would live there - however, they have balanced the advantages of living in a democratic and prosperous society against the historical genocide issues and realised the security is there for them within the laws and values of Germany as it now is. I'd argue that TC should be asking themselves those same questions - the advantages of life in a democratic, reunited Cyprus as opposed to isolation against perceived injustices in the past (used as excuses for invasion and stealing of property and ethnic cleansing).

This is the sort of rational liberal thinking we are seeing more and more from right minded Brits who realise it is Democracy they have to uphold against the encroachers from Turkey.

And this is the sort of logical balanced view which will serve to produce the childish responses from insan when his fascist, oligarchic views are challenged.

Talisker, you may well be reaching the conclusion that the TCs are not fighting for liberalism, minority rights or for "safety" ... but merely how to hang on to free property, land and the belongings of others. As simple as that. Pure greed!

[Talisker]

Yes, that is apparent, and by hiding behind the myths of genocide, peace operations and Turkish protection, and demands for special status, they excuse themselves from the basic facts - land seizure by force, ethnic cleansing in the north, the 'pariah' status afforded by the international community. I'd argue the evidence suggests this will lead to self-imposed genocide.

Talikser, you're forgetting that the Turkish Cypriot position is based on past precedents. The situation in Crete when the Turkish minority there were expunged, the post WWI Greek invasion of Turkey, to name but two. How are you going to convince Turkish Cypriots that these parts of Greek-Turkish history are not going to repeat?

By providing examples such as the recent renivigoration of Jewish society in Germany. Read the debate.........

[insan]

Ahhh forgot to add... as long as u support GC thesis no one will shout at u "bugger off foreigner, who r u to tell Cypriots what to do!"

Play the game how it suits... ridiculous!

You know I'm right, you just can't admit it!

C'mon, show some of that German Jewish courage! Fight for reunification - your children and grandchildren will thank you for it..........

I'd better fight for a better TRNC instead of fighting for reunification. In TRNC I have one element to fight against but in a reunited Cyprus there will be 2... so it's not wise to have 2 elements to fight against.

Ask Israelis to show some courage by abandoning Israel to Palestinians and go settle down Germany.