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TCs ain't no German Jews!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby DT. » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:53 pm

Bananiot wrote:I was asked why I voted for the Annan Plan back then. This is the answer I gave at the time:

The year 2004 was immensely significant for Cyprus. It was the first time in more than 30 years that a comprehensive plan was offered to the two communities of Cyprus, Greeks and Turks, for a solution to a problem that has lasted for a very long time. The Turkish Cypriots voted in significant numbers for the proposed solution while the Greek Cypriots heeded the advice of their President and gave a resounding “NO” to the Secretary General of the UN that prepared the plan. April 2004 was the month when the people of Cyprus were called upon to decide for the future of their island.

The Plan itself left many things to be desired. One could almost find reasons to vote against it in every paragraph and every clause of it. As someone said, even the proposed new flag of the unified island looked really bad. However, one needed to decide on more complex issues and really it was not about saying a simple “YES” or a simple “NO”. The most important question we had to answer was: Could we hope for something better in the future and thus dismiss the proposed plan of the UN Secretary General or go for it, because the alternative would be partition and eventual accession of the occupied part of Cyprus by Turkey. President Papadopoulos had an ace under his sleeve. He called upon the Greek Cypriots to give a loud “NO” because we were only a week away from becoming a full member of the European Union. “Why rush and vote “YES” when we can wait for another week and then ask for a better, European solution” he told the people.

The Annan Plan was a plan that was supported by the international community (UN and EU). There were many things in it that could have been better. Papadopoulos did not negotiate it with a view of making it better for the Greek Cypriots. He in fact made it worse (Annan 3 was much better than the final plan) so that he could justify the loud "NO" he was asking. I suppose he sincerely believed that the EU would step in with a better plan after we joined this exclusive club. Some think that he had never the stomach for a Bizonal, Bicommunal Federation and he used the EU hand to trick the people into rejecting the plan.

Of course, in the world we live, there are no ideal solutions but options (according to the great author Stanislav Lem) especially for a tiny weenie country such as Cyprus. We have been offered some better options in the past but declined to take them, making sure that the Turks received the blame for the stalemate. This worked quite well while Denktash ruled supreme in the north. Basically, we kept the flame going for a different kind of solution that would see Cyprus becoming a unitary state once again with the majority running the country and the minority enjoying all legitimate rights. Of course we were thinking wishfully, as always, but when things did change in the north, our shortcomings were quickly exposed. The whole world now thinks that we are the community to blame and that the Turkish Cypriot community is to be rewarded for maintaining a positive and helpful stance. The victims became the guilty party and Turkey got a resolution at the UN asking her to continue her good efforts for a solution. The amazing thing is that Papadopoulos put his signature on the print.

Some questions need to be asked at this late hour, when partition of Cyprus is quite ominous: Can we climb down from the clouds and face realities? Realities that were formulated not only by Turkey but mainly because of our own incredible lust to turn the island into a part of Greece (Makarios's speeches in Panayia and elsewhere in the early 60's pay testament to the fact). Papadopoulos and his government have been in charge for almost four years. Doesn't it strike as odd that he has not made a single proposition as to how we can go about solving our problem? Does Papadopoulos give the impression that he wants a quick solution? Does anyone understand what he actually wants? Why do people not trust him? Has the whole world teamed up to conspire against us? Is it okay for us to shout "thieves" at the Anglo-Americans in such an undiplomatically resentful way? Are we offering the best service to our country by distancing ourselves from the most influential countries that control this part of the world? Is this a patriotic thing to do?

I supported the Annan Plan and voted, among others, for the Turkish army to leave Cyprus and the number of settlers to be restricted to a few thousands. I voted for the Plan because I knew full well that it was an option that we could not afford not to take. Simitis, the Prime Minister of Greece for more than ten years, urged us to vote for the plan, along with other politicians in Greece. He knew only too well that it was the best we could do, under the circumstances.

Furthermore, even with the benefit of hindsight, if I had to choose, I would probably still choose the Annan Plan, even compared to a plan that offered a unified Cyprus, because with our mentality it is probably better if the two communities are separated, for the immediate future, into their respective geographical regions that are mutually decided. From this point of view the Plan was a masterpiece and took well into account, both our recent history and the mentality of a people with zero political culture.

Yet, what weighed even more heavily in my mind prior to the referenda was that I knew all too well that Papadopoulos will never be able to manage the "NO" of the Greek Cypriot community. Klerides and Vassiliou would have done it in an elegant and a diplomatically acceptable manner. They could have easily shown the world that the Greek Cypriot community did not reject a solution but a specific plan. Papadopoulos will never be able to do this.

Remember how he cried on TV when he asked the Greek Cypriots to give a loud "no"?

A politically cultured man would have cried if he had asked his people to vote "yes".


I took out the reasons you voted for the plan from your text above and removed the blah blah if you don't mind Bananiot.

It was the first time in more than 30 years that a comprehensive plan was offered to the two communities of Cyprus,

Doesn't really say much


the alternative would be partition and eventual accession of the occupied part of Cyprus by Turkey.

And the difference with today being?

The Annan Plan was a plan that was supported by the international community (UN and EU).

Still waiting for your reasons on why the Annan Plan is a better option than the status quo and the survival of the Republic of Cyprus as an entity.


the Turkish army to leave Cyprus and the number of settlers to be restricted to a few thousands.

Odd thing for you to vote for. SO much racism against the settlers? Seriously why is this a priority for you in so much that so far is the only valid reason you've given for voting for the annan plan?


We have been offered some better options in the past but declined to take them

And this means we should take the next plan...back to wishing and hoping i see.

I voted for the Plan because I knew full well that it was an option that we could not afford not to take

Here we go again....I'm starting to think you didn't read this plan.


because with our mentality it is probably better if the two communities are separated, for the immediate future, into their respective geographical regions that are mutually decided.

Cherry on the cake
:D
One of the reasons you've voted for the annan plan that divides this land into 2 equally legitimate statelets (with an option of separating under separate referendums later) is because you think its a good idea to live divided and separately.

I'm now concvinced Bananiot and owe you a great apology. You've never read this plan have you? All this time I resented the fact that an intelligent person such as yourself who could understand the basics of a legal document could ever knowlingly vote for such a suicidal plan that would have demolished this island into 2 parts forever LEGALLY. When all along your blind hate towards the Papadopoulos's and the Koutsou's gave you reason enough to go against.

My apologies.
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Postby Bananiot » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:14 pm

You are not insulting my intelligence DT but yours. Your last paragraph says the lot. If you show me anywhere in the Annan Plan that allows for
an option of separating under separate referendums later
I will cut my tongue, throw my PC away and disappear from the face of this earth. The Annan Plan, like the Zurich agreements (if only Makarios had read them), prohibit both annexation and partition.
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Postby DT. » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:21 pm

Bananiot wrote:You are not insulting my intelligence DT but yours. Your last paragraph says the lot. If you show me anywhere in the Annan Plan that allows for
an option of separating under separate referendums later
I will cut my tongue, throw my PC away and disappear from the face of this earth. The Annan Plan, like the Zurich agreements (if only Makarios had read them), prohibit both annexation and partition.


You write "the Zurich agreement prohibited partition and annexation" and kept a straight face while doing so?

The only reason we don't have recognised partition is because the state of the Republic of Cyprus is ONE.

What do you think would have happened if the invasion ocurred under the annan plan and there'd be no "community" withdrawing from govt but one of the 2 legally equal states that make up that atrocity of a federation (legally a confederation)

Lay off the egg nog Bananiot.
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Postby Bananiot » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:25 pm

If an invasion can take place under the Annan plan or the best of plans, it can also take place in a unitary state where all are equal and all enjoy one man one vote status. Hence, a case for invasion can be made in any case but hopefully the next one will be by Greece. pathetic really, but you started it.
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Postby Bananiot » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:27 pm

The Zurich accord was a blessing in disguise according to you know who, but it took him 45 years to realise this.
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Postby DT. » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:30 pm

Bananiot wrote:If an invasion can take place under the Annan plan or the best of plans, it can also take place in a unitary state where all are equal and all enjoy one man one vote status. Hence, a case for invasion can be made in any case but hopefully the next one will be by Greece. pathetic really, but you started it.


bananiot stop pretending you're not getting this. An invasion took place under a unitary state and the turkish side had 2 key ingredients missing to formalise partition....
1) A legal entity
2) Recognised territory to go along with that territory

With the Annan plan both a legal state is given as the federal turkish state of cyprus and the territory that goes along with it.

If the invasion or a referendum for partition occurred in the north state after the annan plan then the argument against it would be done by its equal sibling in the south....NOT the federal govt.

Result=

2 equal statelets with a collapsed Federal govt fighting for recognition.
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Postby Paphitis » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:33 pm

Bananiot wrote:If an invasion can take place under the Annan plan or the best of plans, it can also take place in a unitary state where all are equal and all enjoy one man one vote status. Hence, a case for invasion can be made in any case but hopefully the next one will be by Greece. pathetic really, but you started it.


If there was a functioning state to begin with, then there would be no Makarios 13 point plan, the elected TC members would not have walked out and violence would not have spread ultimately leading onto an invasion in 74.

See that's the thing. The Annan Plan would have become the eventual legalization of 2 sovereign and independent nations in Cyprus which is exactly what Turkey wants to achieve long term.
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Postby Oracle » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:49 pm

But Bananiot doesn't think we deserve democracy and human rights since we are not allowed to "delete the past"! So, if he supports the Annan plan, it could only be because this would have been the punishment we bad GCs deserved!

Ergo the Annan plan was bad for GCs ...
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Postby Bananiot » Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:50 pm

I know the folly quite well DT. It was very well described by Michalis Dountas (spiritual father and political teacher of Tassos Papadopoulos). Your assertions remind me of the lies, hollow and nonsensical slogans, calculated stupidity and pseudo-patriotism that we were showered with in 2002 leading up to April 2004. I also remember a certain Yiallourides who told us that the aim of Turkey is to turkify Cyprus and the whole of Europe! Turkey is in Cyprus right now with thousands of settlers and an army of 40 000 that can double and treble in minutes and here is you talking about the de facto partition that exists today that according to you can never become de jure and we can keep going as we are for ever. No way DT, only an agreed solution can get Turkey out of Cyprus and a possible accession of Turkey to the EU our best guarantee for survival.
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Postby Paphitis » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:10 pm

Bananiot wrote:I know the folly quite well DT. It was very well described by Michalis Dountas (spiritual father and political teacher of Tassos Papadopoulos). Your assertions remind me of the lies, hollow and nonsensical slogans, calculated stupidity and pseudo-patriotism that we were showered with in 2002 leading up to April 2004. I also remember a certain Yiallourides who told us that the aim of Turkey is to turkify Cyprus and the whole of Europe! Turkey is in Cyprus right now with thousands of settlers and an army of 40 000 that can double and treble in minutes and here is you talking about the de facto partition that exists today that according to you can never become de jure and we can keep going as we are for ever. No way DT, only an agreed solution can get Turkey out of Cyprus and a possible accession of Turkey to the EU our best guarantee for survival.


No need to bring Tassos Papadopoulos into the equation because 76% voted against the Annan Plan and this had absolutely nothing to do with Tpap's influence over the people.

The people just did not want 2 states and so that's the end of that. The GCs will reject the next 2 state solution so I do wonder who you will blame then. So Don't blame Tassos because he was just one voter. You can blame ALL of us, the common people, who comprised the 76% by voting NO, just like we will do again and again if we have to. And we will vote NO, even if our current President tries to tell us to vote YES, and I think you will find that a good proportion of President Christofias' supporters will also vote NO.

Bottom line is, a 2 state solution has Buckley's chance of getting off the ground and you know this very well.
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