Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

... with your insincere pleas of democracy and human rights...

Why are they "insincere"? Because that is how you excuse yourself for ignoring them as unfit for TCs to observe and practice.

They are insincere because they only apply now and only to the GCs...Where were the human rights cries when the TCs were huddled in their tiny enclaves fearing for their lives??? If you are selective about your demands for human rights and democracy you are insincere and cannot be trusted or taken seriously...

I was not even alive back then. Neither my family had anything to do with the inter-communal conflict. On the other hand you were alive back then and I remember you saying how your family was directly involved with TMT, the ones who started the conflict in the 50s. So if we are going to drop this discussion to the personal level, then surely I can not have more responsibility about the events of that era than you do.

And please don't claim that era was the fault of only the GCs. We all know the role that TMT played and I even gave you a quote of Denktash saying in 1964: "We wish to establish a federal administration in Cyprus. In order to achieve this, it is necessary to move a portion of the Turks from one place to another place and to concentrate our people in certain parts of the island".

Where did I say that I want even a single human right of the TCs violated? I always talk about a free united Cyprus where all people are equal citizens with no human rights violations against anybody.

On the contrary it is you who is looking for revenge, trying to falsify history and manufacture some excuse to yet again violate our human rights. Sounds very familiar!

You share the same kind of logic with TC and GC extremists. I am sure when these extremists were murdering innocent and unarmed people in cold blood they were giving the excuse "Where were your cries when ......... (fill in the gap with some event from the past blamed on the other side). That is a sick mentality mate. It is one thing to analyze history to find the faults and wrongs of each side, it is fine to ask the other side to acknowledge their share of the blame, it is OK to demand the punishment of those individuals who committed the crimes, but to seek some kind of collective punishment and revenge against a whole community and violate the rights of innocent people by using your own one sided view of past events, well, that is criminal to say the least!

Is this truly your own logic? Have you changed that much?

I have not changed at all,Piratis...But I got sick of the one-sided insults and accusations coming from you and others like Oracle,who totally ignore anything which might put a dent in their armour of hatred and bitterness...Empathy and compassion cannot be one sided..I have shown enough of it on this forum...Now it is your turn....I know you are not capable of writing anything that is slightly critical of the GCs..So I will do it for you...Please copy and paste it in a post and send it as is.....It would mean a lot to me and others like me...

So you want me to lie to make you feel batter? Is this what you consider "Empathy and compassion"?

Sorry Bir, but I will not lie just to make you feel better, and I hope you don't do that either since this is not something I consider honest.

I appreciate that the TCs were truly in fear of their lives from mid 50s onwards...

I take your word on this. I am not a TC and I was not even alive in that era to know what you had in your head. If you say that this is the way you felt, I believe you.

However the question is why you felt in that way? There were no threads against you and no attacks against your community (until TCs collaborated with the Imperialists and TC extremists attacked the GC). Rhodes island which was united with Greece in 1947 did so without a single bleeding nose. The population of your minority there has increased by 20% since then.

The demand for ENOSIS and the presence of the EOKA,enabled the big powers to divide and rule the two communities,who are really one people one nation...

I agree, the GCs and TCs are one people. The question is how did the imperialist divide us? It was done with the "stick and the carrot" method. On one hand they created an unjustified fear among the TCs convincing them that their lives were in danger (the stick) and on the other hand they promised to TCs that they can have half of Cyprus just for themselves (the carrot). These drove the TCs to attack the GCs and threaten the GCs with annihilation from half of their island.

Being in the minority they had little choice but leave the government in the 60s as they felt their lives were in danger...

What was in danger were the privileges granted to them earlier. Not their lives. But they choose to fight instead of giving up some of those unfair privileges and this is what put their lives, and the lives of GCs, in danger.

For eleven years they survived extreme hardship on top of the fear for their lives...

Agreed, but the conflict was mostly over by 1968.

The GC community at the time showed no interest in the TCs plight...No one ever talked about the TCs democratic and human rights...

There was no TC plight for democracy and human rights. What the TCs wanted was to return to what was imposed earlier by the Imperialists, which was not democratic and which was on the expense of our human rights.

The Cyprus government was appropriated by the GCs and used only to benefit themselves...

OK.

All help and encouragement were offered to those TCs who wanted to leave Cyprus...

I don't know about this.

I acknowledge that starting from the demand for ENOSIS, the GCs showed little sensitivity or empathy for the feelings of the TC community...

When did the TCs showed any sensitivity or empathy for our feelings? At least we were willing to respect their human and democratic rights if they agreed to respect ours. They didn't (and they continue to refuse this)

Their disregard of the fears and reservations of the TC community is regrettable and I am sorry so many people suffered for so long as a result...

People suffered for so long because the TCs believed that they had the right for privileges on the expense of our human and democratic rights. If the TCs accepted that all Cypriots are equal and that we should freely and peacefully be allowed to take decisions for our own island, then there would be no suffering for anybody.

The same misfortune was visited on the GCs in 1974,and I would like you to acknowledge our pain and suffering since then...

I would like you to acknowledge our pain and suffering not just since 74, but for everything you had done to us before 74 as well.

Only if we show mutual empathy and compassion will we ever find a solution which will be fair and lasting...

Only if we show respect for each others human rights and accept universal principles such as democracy, we will find a solution which will be fair and lasting.

Any such solution will need to be achieved in stages,and I,Piratis,am prepared to do all in my power to facilitate mutual understanding and respect between our communities....[/size]

No problem with the stages, as long as each step is fair and would provide enough motivation for both sides to move to the next one.

Here I would like to note that I was born in the late 70s, and the above events do not involve me personally.

Now Bir it is your turn, copy and paste the following:

"I, Bir, appreciate that GCs lived their lives in fear and as second category people under foreign empires for centuries...I understand that they had every right to ask for their human and democratic rights and their demand to unite Cyprus with Greece was a legitimate one, even thought we didn't agree with it. We were mislead by foreign Imperialists who made us fear of Enosis and promised to us privileges on the expense of all other Cypriots, and drove us to attack our compatriots and start the inter-communal conflict. In 1960 the Imperialists imposed on Cyprus a constitution which offered to us some of the privileges previously offered. When in 1963 Makarios proposed to remove some of those privileges we flat out refused, abandoned the government and the conflict re-started. We didn't get as much help from Turkey as we expected, and being the smaller and weaker group we suffered more during this conflict. The GCs were left alone to take control of the whole government and use it for their own benefit and we were pushed on the corner. The coup happened in 1974 and Turkey found the excuse they were waiting for to put into action their partition plan. 1000s were killed and 100s of thousands ethnically cleansed. As it was the case since the 50s, our leadership continued to be the puppet of Turkey and the "average TC" was convinced that a form of partition based on ethnic cleansing and human rights violations is the only possible "solution", something which I recognize as wrong. I accept that more human rights violations can not be part of any real solution but will only help to maintain the antagonism and hate between the two sides. I do not support the collective punishment of whole communities based on one sided interpretations of the past. I believe that the least I can do to show empathy and compassion to people is to recognize their human rights and accept them as my equal compatriots without any kind of racist discrimination. From now on, I Bir, will support what is just and right for Cyprus and the Cypriot people as I did before, and I will stop supporting the plans of Imperialists that aim to legalize the division and the human rights violations against the people of my country."

[B25]

Now Bir it is your turn, copy and paste the following:

"I, Bir, appreciate that GCs lived their lives in fear and as second category people under foreign empires for centuries...I understand that they had every right to ask for their human and democratic rights and their demand to unite Cyprus with Greece was a legitimate one, even thought we didn't agree with it. We were mislead by foreign Imperialists who made us fear of Enosis and promised to us privileges on the expense of all other Cypriots, and drove us to attack our compatriots and start the inter-communal conflict. In 1960 the Imperialists imposed on Cyprus a constitution which offered to us some of the privileges previously offered. When in 1963 Makarios proposed to remove some of those privileges we flat out refused, abandoned the government and the conflict re-started. We didn't get as much help from Turkey as we expected, and being the smaller and weaker group we suffered more during this conflict. The GCs were left alone to take control of the whole government and use it for their own benefit and we were pushed on the corner. The coup happened in 1974 and Turkey found the excuse they were waiting for to put into action their partition plan. 1000s were killed and 100s of thousands ethnically cleansed. As it was the case since the 50s, our leadership continued to be the puppet of Turkey and the "average TC" was convinced that a form of partition based on ethnic cleansing and human rights violations is the only possible "solution", something which I recognize as wrong. I accept that more human rights violations can not be part of any real solution but will only help to maintain the antagonism and hate between the two sides. I do not support the collective punishment of whole communities based on one sided interpretations of the past. I believe that the least I can do to show empathy and compassion to people is to recognize their human rights and accept them as my equal compatriots without any kind of racist discrimination. From now on, I Bir, will support what is just and right for Cyprus and the Cypriot people as I did before, and I will stop supporting the plans of Imperialists that aim to legalize the division and the human rights violations against the people of my country."

Piratis, you expect far too much frokm these people. Seriously.

You have no chance of any of them accepting ANY responsibility, remember it is always our fault the whole damn lot of it.

Good try though and as always excellent post for a young guy, bravo sou!

[BirKibrisli]

I, Bir, appreciate that GCs lived their lives in fear and as second category people under foreign empires for centuries...I understand that they had every right to ask for their human and democratic rights and their demand to unite Cyprus with Greece was a legitimate one, even thought we didn't agree with it. We were mislead by foreign Imperialists who made us fear of Enosis and promised to us privileges on the expense of all other Cypriots, and drove us to attack our compatriots and start the inter-communal conflict. In 1960 the Imperialists imposed on Cyprus a constitution which offered to us some of the privileges previously offered. When in 1963 Makarios proposed to remove some of those privileges we flat out refused, abandoned the government and the conflict re-started. We didn't get as much help from Turkey as we expected, and being the smaller and weaker group we suffered more during this conflict. The GCs were left alone to take control of the whole government and use it for their own benefit and we were pushed on the corner. The coup happened in 1974 and Turkey found the excuse they were waiting for to put into action their partition plan. 1000s were killed and 100s of thousands ethnically cleansed. As it was the case since the 50s, our leadership continued to be the puppet of Turkey and the "average TC" was convinced that a form of partition based on ethnic cleansing and human rights violations is the only possible "solution", something which I recognize as wrong. I accept that more human rights violations can not be part of any real solution but will only help to maintain the antagonism and hate between the two sides. I do not support the collective punishment of whole communities based on one sided interpretations of the past. I believe that the least I can do to show empathy and compassion to people is to recognize their human rights and accept them as my equal compatriots without any kind of racist discrimination. From now on, I Bir, will support what is just and right for Cyprus and the Cypriot people as I did before, and I will stop supporting the plans of Imperialists that aim to legalize the division and the human rights violations against the people of my country."

I have no problem signing off on this Piratis..I agree with every word you wrote above...
But you couldn't bring yourself to do the same for me...
One sided or heavily qualified empathy and compassion will not help us find a solution....

[Viewpoint]

Birkıbrıslı welcome to the real world of GC hate and revenge camaflouged by the democracy and human rights for all fallacy, now do you understand why we should never trust people like Piratis Oracle Sotos B25 Kifeas and that without plenty of safrguards and guarantees we should never accept to unify with this type of mindset, we would be putting our people in great danger.

[BirKibrisli]

Birkıbrıslı welcome to the real world of GC hate and revenge camaflouged by the democracy and human rights for all fallacy, now do you understand why we should never trust people like Piratis Oracle Sotos B25 Kifeas and that without plenty of safrguards and guarantees we should never accept to unify with this type of mindset, we would be putting our people in great danger.

[Viewpoint]

Birkıbrıslı welcome to the real world of GC hate and revenge camaflouged by the democracy and human rights for all fallacy, now do you understand why we should never trust people like Piratis Oracle Sotos B25 Kifeas and that without plenty of safrguards and guarantees we should never accept to unify with this type of mindset, we would be putting our people in great danger.

I am sure you are disappointed Bir but you have seen how GCs think and feel about us and why I personally would never trust these people, the majority of GCs are like them alothough they try not to show it and are all friendly on the outside deep down they are all like oracle a very frightening and dangerous thought, do you want to put Tcs in that type of danger once again?

[BirKibrisli]

Birkıbrıslı welcome to the real world of GC hate and revenge camaflouged by the democracy and human rights for all fallacy, now do you understand why we should never trust people like Piratis Oracle Sotos B25 Kifeas and that without plenty of safrguards and guarantees we should never accept to unify with this type of mindset, we would be putting our people in great danger.

I am sure you are disappointed Bir but you have seen how GCs think and feel about us and why I personally would never trust these people, the majority of GCs are like them alothough they try not to show it and are all friendly on the outside deep down they are all like oracle a very frightening and dangerous thought, do you want to put Tcs in that type of danger once again?

The short answer is no,VP...
It is very dificult for someone like me who truly believes that Cypriots are one people,they should be one democratic nation as well...This was our birth right,but it was denied to us because the imperialist powers had other interests to follow.. The imperialists would have failed if the GCs had seen us as true Cypriots as well,not just minority pests used by the big powers to frustrate their ENOSIS dreams... I have to face the reality...If the GCs cannot see, let alone appreciate ,that we are the biggest losers in all this,and if they consciously or subconsciously want to punish us for frustrating their ambition to join with Greece,and if they can't bring themselves to admit to the smallest amount of empathy and compassion for our past and present plights,then there is no hope...

[Viewpoint]

Birkıbrıslı welcome to the real world of GC hate and revenge camaflouged by the democracy and human rights for all fallacy, now do you understand why we should never trust people like Piratis Oracle Sotos B25 Kifeas and that without plenty of safrguards and guarantees we should never accept to unify with this type of mindset, we would be putting our people in great danger.

I am sure you are disappointed Bir but you have seen how GCs think and feel about us and why I personally would never trust these people, the majority of GCs are like them alothough they try not to show it and are all friendly on the outside deep down they are all like oracle a very frightening and dangerous thought, do you want to put Tcs in that type of danger once again?

The short answer is no,VP...
It is very dificult for someone like me who truly believes that Cypriots are one people,they should be one democratic nation as well...This was our birth right,but it was denied to us because the imperialist powers had other interests to follow.. The imperialists would have failed if the GCs had seen us as true Cypriots as well,not just minority pests used by the big powers to frustrate their ENOSIS dreams... I have to face the reality...If the GCs cannot see, let alone appreciate ,that we are the biggest losers in all this,and if they consciously or subconsciously want to punish us for frustrating their ambition to join with Greece,and if they can't bring themselves to admit to the smallest amount of empathy and compassion for our past and present plights,then there is no hope...

You have arrived at this conclusion much later than other TCs but as you can see for yourself nothing has changed the Gc mentality of 1960s still exists today, we cannot trust people who hide behind the excuse of democracy and human rights who can not show the minimum of empathy or regret for what they have done. It is not these principles of democracy and human rights we question but those who will have the power to administer them as they wish. The GCs are experts and twisiting the most simple issue in their favour and they will no doubt do the same if left to their own devices, this is why safeguards and guarantees are vital if we are to even consider unification, we cannot leave things to chance and take the leap of faith which will indeed we have accepted minority status in a Gc state run by people like Piratis and fan club, you can risk it but I know 100% the majority of TCs wont.

[Piratis]

I, Bir, appreciate that GCs lived their lives in fear and as second category people under foreign empires for centuries...I understand that they had every right to ask for their human and democratic rights and their demand to unite Cyprus with Greece was a legitimate one, even thought we didn't agree with it. We were mislead by foreign Imperialists who made us fear of Enosis and promised to us privileges on the expense of all other Cypriots, and drove us to attack our compatriots and start the inter-communal conflict. In 1960 the Imperialists imposed on Cyprus a constitution which offered to us some of the privileges previously offered. When in 1963 Makarios proposed to remove some of those privileges we flat out refused, abandoned the government and the conflict re-started. We didn't get as much help from Turkey as we expected, and being the smaller and weaker group we suffered more during this conflict. The GCs were left alone to take control of the whole government and use it for their own benefit and we were pushed on the corner. The coup happened in 1974 and Turkey found the excuse they were waiting for to put into action their partition plan. 1000s were killed and 100s of thousands ethnically cleansed. As it was the case since the 50s, our leadership continued to be the puppet of Turkey and the "average TC" was convinced that a form of partition based on ethnic cleansing and human rights violations is the only possible "solution", something which I recognize as wrong. I accept that more human rights violations can not be part of any real solution but will only help to maintain the antagonism and hate between the two sides. I do not support the collective punishment of whole communities based on one sided interpretations of the past. I believe that the least I can do to show empathy and compassion to people is to recognize their human rights and accept them as my equal compatriots without any kind of racist discrimination. From now on, I Bir, will support what is just and right for Cyprus and the Cypriot people as I did before, and I will stop supporting the plans of Imperialists that aim to legalize the division and the human rights violations against the people of my country."

I have no problem signing off on this Piratis..I agree with every word you wrote above...
But you couldn't bring yourself to do the same for me...
One sided or heavily qualified empathy and compassion will not help us find a solution....

So which is the truth Bir? What you wrote or what you agreed with me later? Because both things can not be true at the same time. While there is some overlap between the two, certain things are contradictory and you can not support both at the same time.

I didn't ask you for empathy or compassion. I asked you for the truth.

[Piratis]

Viewpoint, where is your regret for all you have done to us? This is the historical truth, as I and Bir agreed:

I, Bir, appreciate that GCs lived their lives in fear and as second category people under foreign empires for centuries...I understand that they had every right to ask for their human and democratic rights and their demand to unite Cyprus with Greece was a legitimate one, even thought we didn't agree with it. We were mislead by foreign Imperialists who made us fear of Enosis and promised to us privileges on the expense of all other Cypriots, and drove us to attack our compatriots and start the inter-communal conflict. In 1960 the Imperialists imposed on Cyprus a constitution which offered to us some of the privileges previously offered. When in 1963 Makarios proposed to remove some of those privileges we flat out refused, abandoned the government and the conflict re-started. We didn't get as much help from Turkey as we expected, and being the smaller and weaker group we suffered more during this conflict. The GCs were left alone to take control of the whole government and use it for their own benefit and we were pushed on the corner. The coup happened in 1974 and Turkey found the excuse they were waiting for to put into action their partition plan. 1000s were killed and 100s of thousands ethnically cleansed. As it was the case since the 50s, our leadership continued to be the puppet of Turkey and the "average TC" was convinced that a form of partition based on ethnic cleansing and human rights violations is the only possible "solution", something which I recognize as wrong. I accept that more human rights violations can not be part of any real solution but will only help to maintain the antagonism and hate between the two sides. I do not support the collective punishment of whole communities based on one sided interpretations of the past. I believe that the least I can do to show empathy and compassion to people is to recognize their human rights and accept them as my equal compatriots without any kind of racist discrimination. From now on, I Bir, will support what is just and right for Cyprus and the Cypriot people as I did before, and I will stop supporting the plans of Imperialists that aim to legalize the division and the human rights violations against the people of my country."

First of all, do you agree with me and Bir on the truth of the above, or you disagree with us?

I said many times I acknowledge your suffering during the decade of the inter-communal conflict. Where is your acknowledgment and your regret for everything else you have done to us from the 1950s until today?

Despite our history I do not ask for even a single of your human rights to be violated and I clearly said that I do not believe in collective punishment. Beyond that you can discard what I actually say and replace them with your own imagination. Just remember that your imagination can not be used as an excuse for crimes.

Unfortunately you clearly want to find excuses to violate our human rights. This is not something I imagine but a clear and direct demand of yours. Based on what part of our history you believe that you have the right to take away our human rights?