Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

I was surprised to read that the number of Jews living in Germany was increasing rapidly, and will soon be reaching pre-WW2 levels.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ogromnacht
Remember 90% of Jews in Germany were murdered (210,000 out of an estimated pre-war population of 240,000) and similar proportions in various Eastern European countries (e.g. estimated 3 million Jews from total of 3.3 million in Poland) instigated again by German propaganda and direct action, leading to the figure of nearly 6 million Jews killed in the holocaust. This really was attempted genocide.

Some TCs like to suggest that they too have been subject to attempted genocide, and that the Turkish invasion in 1974 was a 'peace operation' to prevent such a thing happening. Yes, there were intercommunal killings, but to suggest TCs were subject to attempted genocide is, at best, gross exaggeration, and, at worst, complete fabrication with intent to promote crude propaganda.

So, the words 'attempted genocide' can be applied to actions against European Jews in 1930s and 40s, but not, in any way, to actions against TCs in Cyprus in the 1950s, 60 and 70s.

I salute the courage of Jews living in Germany, a country with a well-established history of attempted genocide against that community. Clearly any Jew now living in Germany must have faith in the social and legal systems which ensure safety and equality for all. This courage allows them to live within a modern, democratic, prosperous nation at the heart of Europe with immense benefits for future generations of those courageous Jews.

Given that Jews can show such courage to live within a society which previously attempted to wipe them of the face of the planet I fail to see why TCs hide behind the 'protection' of 40,000 Turkish troops, supposedly preventing a mythical genocide against them, and do not themselves show courage to embrace a reunified Cyprus. Within a unified Cyprus they will be 'protected' not by Turkish troops, but by the fair and democratic processes of law, not only within Cyprus itself, but also from the EU and the UN.

Despite the horrors of attempted genocide against them in 1930s-40s, Jews are not afforded 'special' status within the judicial or electoral systems in Germany. As a minority community within the general population they live within the standard democratic principle of 'one man, one vote'. Why should TCs demand special privileges in any future negotiated settlement?

I would contend that by hiding behind the mirage of 'attempted genocide' by GCs, the 'peace operation' in 1974, the 'protection' of 40,000 Turkish troops, the demands for special rights in a reunified Cyprus, the TCs show themselves to have none of the courageous characteristics shown by Jews living in Germany today. Such thinking will lead inevitably to a self-imposed genocide - seclusion, economic stagnation that prevents opportunity for future generations, the brightest and best of the TC community leaving to find a prosperous life elsewhere, swamping by incoming settlers. The illegal, isolated, morally bankrupt TRNC is therefore currently promoting TC genocide.

TCs show courage! Demand reunification and your place in a free and democratic Cyprus within the legal scrutiny, framework and protection of the EU and UN. If Jews can live in Germany then surely you can have faith in reuniting with your fellow Cypriots?

Not a word out of place Talisker. The ordinary TC is indeed a victim of exageration and extreme manipulation by nationalist zealots who wish to see the island divided. It is a shame that they hold the sway of power -for the time being.

Deniz, great to have your view on this. How can the presumably moderate and reunification-seeking views of the 'ordinary TC' prevail over the nationalist zealots?

Deniz is not an average TC, if I am not wrong he resides in the UK and presumes that if the GCs and TCs can live together in the UK they can also do it here in Cyprus. Ask him one simple question does he want to become a minority in a GC state without safeguards and guarantees? Then you will see how he really feels and true opinions.

[Talisker]

So basically you GCs are saying capitulate and assimilate into a state where the majority are of GC origin and hope for the best. Its like saying go jump off a cliff and ill be at the bottom to catch you, for us to take such a step in the 21 st century the "majority" have to made to act in accordence with any agreement signed by the 2 sides and if they should once again renegge the consequencies should also be made made very clear. The only way forward is whats on offer a BBF with political equality of the 2 states, about time you GCs realized this and started to take constructive steps towards this partnership and free yourselves from the boss worker mentality.

Clearly an advocator of self-imposed genocide.

Are your fears greater than that of a Jew living in post-war Germany? If they can survive within a democracy, and against a background of perceived or real persecution, why can't you? Your 'head-in-the-sand' attitude does future TC generations no favours.

[insan]

I was surprised to read that the number of Jews living in Germany was increasing rapidly, and will soon be reaching pre-WW2 levels.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ogromnacht
Remember 90% of Jews in Germany were murdered (210,000 out of an estimated pre-war population of 240,000) and similar proportions in various Eastern European countries (e.g. estimated 3 million Jews from total of 3.3 million in Poland) instigated again by German propaganda and direct action, leading to the figure of nearly 6 million Jews killed in the holocaust. This really was attempted genocide.

Some TCs like to suggest that they too have been subject to attempted genocide, and that the Turkish invasion in 1974 was a 'peace operation' to prevent such a thing happening. Yes, there were intercommunal killings, but to suggest TCs were subject to attempted genocide is, at best, gross exaggeration, and, at worst, complete fabrication with intent to promote crude propaganda.

So, the words 'attempted genocide' can be applied to actions against European Jews in 1930s and 40s, but not, in any way, to actions against TCs in Cyprus in the 1950s, 60 and 70s.

I salute the courage of Jews living in Germany, a country with a well-established history of attempted genocide against that community. Clearly any Jew now living in Germany must have faith in the social and legal systems which ensure safety and equality for all. This courage allows them to live within a modern, democratic, prosperous nation at the heart of Europe with immense benefits for future generations of those courageous Jews.

Given that Jews can show such courage to live within a society which previously attempted to wipe them of the face of the planet I fail to see why TCs hide behind the 'protection' of 40,000 Turkish troops, supposedly preventing a mythical genocide against them, and do not themselves show courage to embrace a reunified Cyprus. Within a unified Cyprus they will be 'protected' not by Turkish troops, but by the fair and democratic processes of law, not only within Cyprus itself, but also from the EU and the UN.

Despite the horrors of attempted genocide against them in 1930s-40s, Jews are not afforded 'special' status within the judicial or electoral systems in Germany. As a minority community within the general population they live within the standard democratic principle of 'one man, one vote'. Why should TCs demand special privileges in any future negotiated settlement?

I would contend that by hiding behind the mirage of 'attempted genocide' by GCs, the 'peace operation' in 1974, the 'protection' of 40,000 Turkish troops, the demands for special rights in a reunified Cyprus, the TCs show themselves to have none of the courageous characteristics shown by Jews living in Germany today. Such thinking will lead inevitably to a self-imposed genocide - seclusion, economic stagnation that prevents opportunity for future generations, the brightest and best of the TC community leaving to find a prosperous life elsewhere, swamping by incoming settlers. The illegal, isolated, morally bankrupt TRNC is therefore currently promoting TC genocide.

TCs show courage! Demand reunification and your place in a free and democratic Cyprus within the legal scrutiny, framework and protection of the EU and UN. If Jews can live in Germany then surely you can have faith in reuniting with your fellow Cypriots?

Not a word out of place Talisker. The ordinary TC is indeed a victim of exageration and extreme manipulation by nationalist zealots who wish to see the island divided. It is a shame that they hold the sway of power -for the time being.

What abt nationalist zealots of GCs? What do they wish? They wish the same that Talisker wish... A TC minority in a Greek-GC ruled Cyprus...

[Talisker]

I was surprised to read that the number of Jews living in Germany was increasing rapidly, and will soon be reaching pre-WW2 levels.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ogromnacht
Remember 90% of Jews in Germany were murdered (210,000 out of an estimated pre-war population of 240,000) and similar proportions in various Eastern European countries (e.g. estimated 3 million Jews from total of 3.3 million in Poland) instigated again by German propaganda and direct action, leading to the figure of nearly 6 million Jews killed in the holocaust. This really was attempted genocide.

Some TCs like to suggest that they too have been subject to attempted genocide, and that the Turkish invasion in 1974 was a 'peace operation' to prevent such a thing happening. Yes, there were intercommunal killings, but to suggest TCs were subject to attempted genocide is, at best, gross exaggeration, and, at worst, complete fabrication with intent to promote crude propaganda.

So, the words 'attempted genocide' can be applied to actions against European Jews in 1930s and 40s, but not, in any way, to actions against TCs in Cyprus in the 1950s, 60 and 70s.

I salute the courage of Jews living in Germany, a country with a well-established history of attempted genocide against that community. Clearly any Jew now living in Germany must have faith in the social and legal systems which ensure safety and equality for all. This courage allows them to live within a modern, democratic, prosperous nation at the heart of Europe with immense benefits for future generations of those courageous Jews.

Given that Jews can show such courage to live within a society which previously attempted to wipe them of the face of the planet I fail to see why TCs hide behind the 'protection' of 40,000 Turkish troops, supposedly preventing a mythical genocide against them, and do not themselves show courage to embrace a reunified Cyprus. Within a unified Cyprus they will be 'protected' not by Turkish troops, but by the fair and democratic processes of law, not only within Cyprus itself, but also from the EU and the UN.

Despite the horrors of attempted genocide against them in 1930s-40s, Jews are not afforded 'special' status within the judicial or electoral systems in Germany. As a minority community within the general population they live within the standard democratic principle of 'one man, one vote'. Why should TCs demand special privileges in any future negotiated settlement?

I would contend that by hiding behind the mirage of 'attempted genocide' by GCs, the 'peace operation' in 1974, the 'protection' of 40,000 Turkish troops, the demands for special rights in a reunified Cyprus, the TCs show themselves to have none of the courageous characteristics shown by Jews living in Germany today. Such thinking will lead inevitably to a self-imposed genocide - seclusion, economic stagnation that prevents opportunity for future generations, the brightest and best of the TC community leaving to find a prosperous life elsewhere, swamping by incoming settlers. The illegal, isolated, morally bankrupt TRNC is therefore currently promoting TC genocide.

TCs show courage! Demand reunification and your place in a free and democratic Cyprus within the legal scrutiny, framework and protection of the EU and UN. If Jews can live in Germany then surely you can have faith in reuniting with your fellow Cypriots?

Not a word out of place Talisker. The ordinary TC is indeed a victim of exageration and extreme manipulation by nationalist zealots who wish to see the island divided. It is a shame that they hold the sway of power -for the time being.

Deniz, great to have your view on this. How can the presumably moderate and reunification-seeking views of the 'ordinary TC' prevail over the nationalist zealots?

Deniz is not an average TC, if I am not wrong he resides in the UK and presumes that if the GCs and TCs can live together in the UK they can also do it here in Cyprus. Ask him one simple question does he want to become a minority in a GC state without safeguards and guarantees? Then you will see how he really feels and true opinions.

Life within EU states automatically provides safeguards and guarantees.

[denizaksulu]

I was surprised to read that the number of Jews living in Germany was increasing rapidly, and will soon be reaching pre-WW2 levels.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ogromnacht
Remember 90% of Jews in Germany were murdered (210,000 out of an estimated pre-war population of 240,000) and similar proportions in various Eastern European countries (e.g. estimated 3 million Jews from total of 3.3 million in Poland) instigated again by German propaganda and direct action, leading to the figure of nearly 6 million Jews killed in the holocaust. This really was attempted genocide.

Some TCs like to suggest that they too have been subject to attempted genocide, and that the Turkish invasion in 1974 was a 'peace operation' to prevent such a thing happening. Yes, there were intercommunal killings, but to suggest TCs were subject to attempted genocide is, at best, gross exaggeration, and, at worst, complete fabrication with intent to promote crude propaganda.

So, the words 'attempted genocide' can be applied to actions against European Jews in 1930s and 40s, but not, in any way, to actions against TCs in Cyprus in the 1950s, 60 and 70s.

I salute the courage of Jews living in Germany, a country with a well-established history of attempted genocide against that community. Clearly any Jew now living in Germany must have faith in the social and legal systems which ensure safety and equality for all. This courage allows them to live within a modern, democratic, prosperous nation at the heart of Europe with immense benefits for future generations of those courageous Jews.

Given that Jews can show such courage to live within a society which previously attempted to wipe them of the face of the planet I fail to see why TCs hide behind the 'protection' of 40,000 Turkish troops, supposedly preventing a mythical genocide against them, and do not themselves show courage to embrace a reunified Cyprus. Within a unified Cyprus they will be 'protected' not by Turkish troops, but by the fair and democratic processes of law, not only within Cyprus itself, but also from the EU and the UN.

Despite the horrors of attempted genocide against them in 1930s-40s, Jews are not afforded 'special' status within the judicial or electoral systems in Germany. As a minority community within the general population they live within the standard democratic principle of 'one man, one vote'. Why should TCs demand special privileges in any future negotiated settlement?

I would contend that by hiding behind the mirage of 'attempted genocide' by GCs, the 'peace operation' in 1974, the 'protection' of 40,000 Turkish troops, the demands for special rights in a reunified Cyprus, the TCs show themselves to have none of the courageous characteristics shown by Jews living in Germany today. Such thinking will lead inevitably to a self-imposed genocide - seclusion, economic stagnation that prevents opportunity for future generations, the brightest and best of the TC community leaving to find a prosperous life elsewhere, swamping by incoming settlers. The illegal, isolated, morally bankrupt TRNC is therefore currently promoting TC genocide.

TCs show courage! Demand reunification and your place in a free and democratic Cyprus within the legal scrutiny, framework and protection of the EU and UN. If Jews can live in Germany then surely you can have faith in reuniting with your fellow Cypriots?

Not a word out of place Talisker. The ordinary TC is indeed a victim of exageration and extreme manipulation by nationalist zealots who wish to see the island divided. It is a shame that they hold the sway of power -for the time being.

Deniz, great to have your view on this. How can the presumably moderate and reunification-seeking views of the 'ordinary TC' prevail over the nationalist zealots?

There are a few brave souls out there, but the fear is the 'fascist's who are terrorising the people you mention.
When I went into a TC bookshop asking for a certain book, by Uludag, I was told, we dont sell books 'like that'. TC's must get their 'freedom of speech and expression' first and not live in fear. I suspect that the 'deep state' has something to the with this.

[insan]

What courage r u asking from TCs? Accepting minority status in Cyprus?

Forget abt it... neither overwhelming majority of TCs wish accepting minority status nor Turks.

Why not? Jews in Germany are in the minority (~200,000 in a population of > 80 million). As a tiny minority it could be argued they are more vulnerable than TCs as 18% of total Cypriot population. The point is to have courage and faith in the legal and judicial processes of the reunified state, and thereby reap the benefits of becoming part of an economically vibrant society that is part of the international community.

More than that the TCs need to have faith in themselves and their abilities. And the sad truth is they don't.

Yes, that is apparent, and by hiding behind the myths of genocide, peace operations and Turkish protection, and demands for special status, they excuse themselves from the basic facts - land seizure by force, ethnic cleansing in the north, the 'pariah' status afforded by the international community. I'd argue the evidence suggests this will lead to self-imposed genocide.

When other ethnic group leaves no other options(except minority status in a historically hostile ethnic group) for u to choose what u blame on us in ur above post is the consequence of their desire to make TCs a minority in Cyprus. So, u better blame all the consequences of Cyprus problem on Pan Hellenes.

Straight question Insan (please provide straight answer) - who is the more courageous - the Jew in free and democratic Germany or the TC in the TRNC?

Talisker, it's not abt courage, as i told u previously. Jews has a recognized state but TCs don't have a recognized state... Just like Jews live as a minority all around the world, TCs also live as a minority in all around the world.

U may compare Israel with TRNC to a degree but there's no basis to compare Jews living in Germany and TCs living in Cyprus.

Even if TRNC was recognized, I'm sure there would be TCs living in GC state and GCs living in TC state... This is completely a different issue that depends on individual's interests.

[Talisker]

What courage r u asking from TCs? Accepting minority status in Cyprus?

Forget abt it... neither overwhelming majority of TCs wish accepting minority status nor Turks.

Why not? Jews in Germany are in the minority (~200,000 in a population of > 80 million). As a tiny minority it could be argued they are more vulnerable than TCs as 18% of total Cypriot population. The point is to have courage and faith in the legal and judicial processes of the reunified state, and thereby reap the benefits of becoming part of an economically vibrant society that is part of the international community.

Talisker, it is obvious that u knw a little abt TC history in Cyprus. There's nothing for comparing jew minority of Germany and TC community in Cyprus.

The current situation in Cyprus is the consequence of the last 100+ years. TCs r well knowledged abt their history in Cyprus. The roots of TC struggle dates back when Britain unilaterally annex Cyprus into it's territory by violating the agreement between GB and Ottaman Empire.

It's the day TC struggle in Cyprus started. Mainly it has nothing to do with genocide allegations...

Ur logic comparing Jews of Germany with TCs of Cyprus is completely baseless...

Are you saying the TC history is worse than that of Jews in Germany?

I'm talking general principles - looking forward and not backwards, courage to take the risks which lead to greater prosperity and opportunity for future generations, integrating into accepted democratic mechanisms........none of these applicable to TCs?

Talisker, for a moment imagine that during the dissolution of empires and establishment of nation states, there was no British rule in cyprus and just like Greeks and Turks had established their nation states; in Cyprus GCs and TC would have establish their nation states just like almost every nation established their nation states. In the begining of British Rule, TC population was 1/3 of Cyprus population. This means we have the right to establish our nation state on 1/3 of Cyprus territory if GCs continue pursueing the policy considering TCs a minority in Cyprus that they have always considered TCs as a minority... not only a minority but as "remnants of Ottoman Turks", "potential barbarians", "potential Turkish spies", "Atillas" of Cyprus.

The mentality of their ruling class is still the same... Since they don't want a politically equal TC nation in Cyprus; they must bear the consequences...

Because of various reasons; mainly for the stability of NATO and political instabilities in Turkey and Greece; we TCs too bear the consequences of GC insistence on making Cyprus an island solely ruled by Greeks and GCs...

However, it has been a decade that in Turkey there's stability and stability in Balkans also support our solution thesis. In 1 to 2 years new shift of balance of the powers in middle east and whole of Asia will make our hand even much stronger to solve Cyprus problem in frame of our thesis.

A resolved Cyprus problem and a recognized TRNC r not our only problems... as a consequence of unsuitable circimstances the last 60-70 years TCs have been in; caused us a much losses of development in all fields but when Cyprus problem solved it won't be difficult for us to rapidly develop in all fields...

Insan, I like your posts, you have a sense of humour, wear your heart on your sleeve, and maybe you really do believe the nonsense you write in Cyprob threads. Here you are asking me to 'imagine' a scenario from the past - basically you are trying to re-write history, and historical revisionism is extremely dangerous. I'm asking myself - are you 'the brain-washed' (Deniz's 'ordinary TC?') or 'the brain-washer' (Deniz's 'nationalist zealot?')?.

Your description of a naturally evolved divided Cyprus consisting of separate Greek and Turkish states, but still-born through British intervention, is complete fantasy! As, I suggest, is 'Insan's insight' into the future format of a 'resolved Cyprus problem' and the vague geopolitical circumstances that will bring this about.

[Oracle]

.. Jews has a recognized state but TCs don't have a recognized state...

Maybe they have a longer history as "Jews" than you do as "TCs"!

... Besides, you too have a recognised state, in Turkey, but that's not good enough or big enough for you because of your exaggerated egos!

[Talisker]

What courage r u asking from TCs? Accepting minority status in Cyprus?

Forget abt it... neither overwhelming majority of TCs wish accepting minority status nor Turks.

Why not? Jews in Germany are in the minority (~200,000 in a population of > 80 million). As a tiny minority it could be argued they are more vulnerable than TCs as 18% of total Cypriot population. The point is to have courage and faith in the legal and judicial processes of the reunified state, and thereby reap the benefits of becoming part of an economically vibrant society that is part of the international community.

More than that the TCs need to have faith in themselves and their abilities. And the sad truth is they don't.

Yes, that is apparent, and by hiding behind the myths of genocide, peace operations and Turkish protection, and demands for special status, they excuse themselves from the basic facts - land seizure by force, ethnic cleansing in the north, the 'pariah' status afforded by the international community. I'd argue the evidence suggests this will lead to self-imposed genocide.

When other ethnic group leaves no other options(except minority status in a historically hostile ethnic group) for u to choose what u blame on us in ur above post is the consequence of their desire to make TCs a minority in Cyprus. So, u better blame all the consequences of Cyprus problem on Pan Hellenes.

Straight question Insan (please provide straight answer) - who is the more courageous - the Jew in free and democratic Germany or the TC in the TRNC?

Talisker, it's not abt courage, as i told u previously. Jews has a recognized state but TCs don't have a recognized state... Just like Jews live as a minority all around the world, TCs also live as a minority in all around the world.

U may compare Israel with TRNC to a degree but there's no basis to compare Jews living in Germany and TCs living in Cyprus.

Even if TRNC was recognized, I'm sure there would be TCs living in GC state and GCs living in TC state... This is completely a different issue that depends on individual's interests.

My argument is that IT IS ABOUT COURAGE. And also, I may add, about VALUES - the principles (and advantages) of democracy, the security of living within a moral and legal framework (such as provided by the EU and UN). The TRNC does not promote those principles, does not therefore gain international acceptance and recognition, and as a consequence ultimately disadvantages those who reside within it.

[insan]

What courage r u asking from TCs? Accepting minority status in Cyprus?

Forget abt it... neither overwhelming majority of TCs wish accepting minority status nor Turks.

Why not? Jews in Germany are in the minority (~200,000 in a population of > 80 million). As a tiny minority it could be argued they are more vulnerable than TCs as 18% of total Cypriot population. The point is to have courage and faith in the legal and judicial processes of the reunified state, and thereby reap the benefits of becoming part of an economically vibrant society that is part of the international community.

More than that the TCs need to have faith in themselves and their abilities. And the sad truth is they don't.

Yes, that is apparent, and by hiding behind the myths of genocide, peace operations and Turkish protection, and demands for special status, they excuse themselves from the basic facts - land seizure by force, ethnic cleansing in the north, the 'pariah' status afforded by the international community. I'd argue the evidence suggests this will lead to self-imposed genocide.

When other ethnic group leaves no other options(except minority status in a historically hostile ethnic group) for u to choose what u blame on us in ur above post is the consequence of their desire to make TCs a minority in Cyprus. So, u better blame all the consequences of Cyprus problem on Pan Hellenes.

Straight question Insan (please provide straight answer) - who is the more courageous - the Jew in free and democratic Germany or the TC in the TRNC?

Talisker, it's not abt courage, as i told u previously. Jews has a recognized state but TCs don't have a recognized state... Just like Jews live as a minority all around the world, TCs also live as a minority in all around the world.

U may compare Israel with TRNC to a degree but there's no basis to compare Jews living in Germany and TCs living in Cyprus.

Even if TRNC was recognized, I'm sure there would be TCs living in GC state and GCs living in TC state... This is completely a different issue that depends on individual's interests.

My argument is that IT IS ABOUT COURAGE. And also, I may add, about VALUES - the principles (and advantages) of democracy, the security of living within a moral and legal framework (such as provided by the EU and UN). The TRNC does not promote those principles, does not therefore gain international acceptance and recognition, and as a consequence ultimately disadvantages those who reside within it.

If u don't believe me that it's not abt courage just ask the TCs. U really knw a little abt TC history in Cyprus...

Those(GCs and TCs) who have courage; actually individual interests, have been liveing in opposite sides of the island for a long time.

There r so many countries that r not in EU but have more developed democracy, values and principles. A country does not need to be in EU to become more democratic so does not TRNC...

Partly I agree with u that TRNC does not promote "those" principles but every passing year it becomes more democratic and closer to universally accepted principles and values... It is true that most of our politicians r incompetent self-seekers mainly because most of them r "products" of unsuitable, turbulent circumstances of Cyprus but when compared to previous years slowly develops in all fields despite the isolation that has a great impact on every aspect of TC life thus development of TRNC.