Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

We are not talking about 1878. We are talking about the 1950s and after.

[denizaksulu]

We are not talking about 1878. We are talking about the 1950s and after.

Were you?

Oracle said,

"You say the Otto-Turks were "forced" to give Cyprus away (to GB)? Something which was not theirs to give in the first place ... and somehow that "wrong" justifies Turkey re-consuming the island?"

Thats when the Otto.....................I give up on you. I am sorry but talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

[Oracle]

Cyprus, like many other nations in Europe, Asia and Africa were rightly or wrongly part of the Ottoman Empire. Thus legally It was theirs. So there!!!

It was not theirs since they surrendered their rights to the British.

Most importantly, Colonization and such empires were declared illegal by the UN. From then on the right of the Cypriot people to own their own island was internationally recognized and no former empire can have any claim on Cyprus.

Mr.



We are talking 1878. Please remind us when the United Nations was formed.

Deniz ... you have ignored the span of the debate. BirKibrisli was talking about why Turkey was justified to (now) reclaim Cyprus because they were "forced" to give her up in the past.

The point is, Cyprus was never either the Ottomans' nor Turkey's right to give or receive or take Cyprus in the first place as our civilisation has been recorded in its natural sovereignty for thousands of years.

[BirKibrisli]

That Turkey woke up one day and decided it was a nice day to drop some napalm on Cyprus???

Bir, Turkey had a plan for the partition of Cyprus since the 50s. They didn't just wake up on morning ...

I don't know the exact facts of that story, but my best guess is that Turkey dropped those 500 people there so later she could come to "save" them by killing innocent GCs. 500 people would not move from Turkey to Cyprus without the knowledge of the Turkish army.

But why deny the actual facts on the day???The bombing was a direct response to the attack on the TC enclave...There were people lining up to watch the massacre of the TCs...I know you are finding his incredible today,but closing your mind to it will not change the facts...All I am saying is this :let us all try to be open minded about the facts and the events,not in denial that only one side is capale of attrocities,only one side is guilty of crimes against humanity...If you keep justifying everything,finding excuses to clear your side of any wrong doing,we will not get anywhere...That is the biggest obstacle to peace in Cyprus...Both sides paint themselves whiter than white..Both sides accuse the other one of everything under the sun...When both sides truly accept their part in this mess,we might find a way out...Not before..

We accepted our part in the mess Bir. But I have 2 questions for you:

1) How much responsibility the GC side has?
2) How does the past excuse the TCs from demanding yet more gains and privileges for themselves on the expense of our human and democratic rights?

You are asking simple questions regarding very complicated matters,Piratis...If you accept your part in the mess,then you accept 50-50 responsibility...

Can I accept our real part in the mess, which is far less than 50%, or you will not be satisfied unless we accept responsibility for far more than what we are really responsible for? You ask from me to acknowledge our wrong doings, and I do, but you should also acknowledge your sides wrong doings. The combined responsibility of Turkey + TCs is far more than the one of GCs and I would hope you can acknowledge this.

The picture is not that clear and simple on your second question either.
The only TCs who gained privileges from our troubles are those close to Denktas and his ruling elite,and those close to the upper echolons of the TMT...Most TCs,like myself,lost everything,including our birthright,to live peacefully without fear in our own country...It is a furphy that the TCs have gained big time from your suffering and loss...Today we are on the brink of cultural extinction...At least you have 66% of your country to practice your democratic rights in...We have become endangered species in our own county,having to justify how Turkish and how Islamic we are at every turn.Our political will have been highjacked by the settlers,and our spirit has been crushed by our"rescuers "who remind us every day we owe them our lives...Please don't talk to me about the TC gains and provileges..it is all in your head...

It is not in my head Bir. It is in the constitution which was imposed on Cyprus. E.g. that the 30% of civil servant positions (the most sought after positions in Cyprus) were given to the 18% of TCs. Isn't this a TC privilege on our expense? Is such thing fair? You didn't enjoy those privileges on our expense because those agreements collapsed.

Now I am asking you about the future: Do you think that the TCs should again have gains on our expense, and even more than those that they had with the 1960 agreements? If yes, why?

it is so frustrating discussing anything with you ,Piratis...Because you totally ignore the aguments I am making,and keep repeating your stock phrases.....Okey I will play your game..I will do the same...Now listen..
The TCs benefited from the constitution of 1960 which you are talking about for 3 short years...And it is debatable how much they benefited because it was still very much a GC dominated power structure...Yes,TCs did have a bit more than what their nembers justified,but still the GCs had the overwhelming majority in both cabinet and parliament..If you were a bit more sensitive to their fears of domination by the GCs and made that constitution work as intended,we wouldnt be in this mess...So looking from it from that angle,it is ALL your fault...100%....How do you like my argument now???I am only following your tactics...Now where will we go from here???How will we find a solution...You have been enjoying all the benefits of the constitutiion now for over 45 years...Who is the greedy one here??REmember I am using your logic now...Thinking in black and white...Tell me how you justify sitting on all the tools of power for 45 years ,getting rich,while the TC had been all but wiped out from the face of Cyprus....

No, you are not using my logic. Because with my logic nobody is punished and nobody is rewarded based on what happened in the past.

The logic you are using is the logic of VP: Trying to blame us for what happened in the past and in this way excuse yet more crimes and human rights violations against us.

Now I want to hear YOUR logic. So I ask you again: Do you think that the TCs should again have gains on our expense, and even more than those that they had with the 1960 agreements? If yes, why?

If you share the VP logic, then please let me know. And then I will give you a detailed reply to what you said using the VP logic.

By logic I really meant TACTICS...I appologise for the clumsines of my expression...You totally ignore any part of the other person's agrument,and just repeat your democracy and human rights argument ad infinitum...I told Oracle why the Turkish jets bombed Cyprus when they did...I said 500 misguided and foolish TC students managed to land in Kokkina area,hoping to make their way to their villages or towns,to help fight of what they thought was an imminent GC push to wipe of all the TCs on the island...They truly believed that,that is why they risked their lives to get there...They were under a long seige,and the final assault wasonly hours away...Some GC civilians had taken up positions on the hill to watch the salaughter of the TCs in that enclave...What was your responce??? "Well,they did not come to have picnic"...That's it...Robot like...The implication??As usual,they deserved all they got... If you had said something like 'Yes ,I know that part of this story,but...how did the GCs know they were not Turkish soldiers?? Or even "the GCs probably thought hey were paving the way for a larger invasion force,so they had to be eliminated" i would say you were prepared to discuss this point sensibly and logically...But no...it suits you for Oracle and the likes to think Turkey was just target practising when they dropped napalm on poor innocent GCs...This is what you do Piratis...This is what is so frustrating...others are copying you too...So we will never get to the point where we can talk like two people really trying to find a middle ground to forge an agreement...I am playing your game from now on...totally ignoring the parts in your agreement that does not suit the TC side...See what frustration is like...But I am probably wasting my time... You are so used to this tactic it is water off ducks back...Sorry,mate. Untill you find some empathy and compassion for the TCs and the position they find temselves in,hence making it a realistic discussion getting us to some point where a compromise might be possible,I will ignore all your points...You have done ur dash...

[BirKibrisli]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

But they did not sell the car,Oracle...They were forced to give it away......

Stop right there, (I have truncated your response) and reflect on what you've just said!

You say the Otto-Turks were "forced" to give Cyprus away (to GB)? Something which was not theirs to give in the first place ... and somehow that "wrong" justifies Turkey re-consuming the island?

I will give you the treatment I am givin to Piratis from now on...
go and check your history...The Ottomans had leased Cyprus to Britain in 1878 or thereabouts,and the British had unilaterally annexed it at the beginning of WWI...In 1923 the fledgling Turkish Republic was forced to sign away her rights over Cyprus...Just like you claim Makarios was forced to sign the 1960 agreements which brought about the republic of Cyprus...If it is good for the GCs to say "we didnt mean it"" it is for Turkey as well..They didnt mean to sign it away...So there!!

[BirKibrisli]

We are not talking about 1878. We are talking about the 1950s and after.

Were you?

Oracle said,

"You say the Otto-Turks were "forced" to give Cyprus away (to GB)? Something which was not theirs to give in the first place ... and somehow that "wrong" justifies Turkey re-consuming the island?"

Thats when the Otto.....................I give up on you. I am sorry but talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

Don't you know,Deniz??? Piratis' mind only computes those dates and events which suits his robotic arguments in favour of the GC position...Of course we were talking about 1878...But that didnt suit Piratis so he moved it to the 50s...When it suits him he goes all the way back to 1571...

[james_mav]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

But they did not sell the car,Oracle...They were forced to give it away......

Stop right there, (I have truncated your response) and reflect on what you've just said!

You say the Otto-Turks were "forced" to give Cyprus away (to GB)? Something which was not theirs to give in the first place ... and somehow that "wrong" justifies Turkey re-consuming the island?

I will give you the treatment I am givin to Piratis from now on...
go and check your history...The Ottomans had leased Cyprus to Britain in 1878 or thereabouts,and the British had unilaterally annexed it at the beginning of WWI...In 1923 the fledgling Turkish Republic was forced to sign away her rights over Cyprus...Just like you claim Makarios was forced to sign the 1960 agreements which brought about the republic of Cyprus...If it is good for the GCs to say "we didnt mean it"" it is for Turkey as well..They didnt mean to sign it away...So there!!

You illiterate turd. I have no idea why Oracle bothers to explain and re-explain things to morons such as yourself.

There is a legal rule in use in courtrooms all over the civilised world today that was so obvious to the ancients that the latin name given to the rule by the Romans 2,000 years ago is still the way it is referred to in across the world: Nemo dat quod non habet...one cannot give what one does not have. Do you suppose the rightful owners, the rightful heirs to this island will forget their inheritance in the years since 1974, since 1878 or since 1570? Don't forget that we were here first, and we will be here last..."Not till the whole world ends will the Greek race vanish!"

[denizaksulu]

Cyprus, like many other nations in Europe, Asia and Africa were rightly or wrongly part of the Ottoman Empire. Thus legally It was theirs. So there!!!

It was not theirs since they surrendered their rights to the British.

Most importantly, Colonization and such empires were declared illegal by the UN. From then on the right of the Cypriot people to own their own island was internationally recognized and no former empire can have any claim on Cyprus.

Mr.



We are talking 1878. Please remind us when the United Nations was formed.

Deniz ... you have ignored the span of the debate. BirKibrisli was talking about why Turkey was justified to (now) reclaim Cyprus because they were "forced" to give her up in the past.

The point is, Cyprus was never either the Ottomans' nor Turkey's right to give or receive or take Cyprus in the first place as our civilisation has been recorded in its natural sovereignty for thousands of years.

I am the last person to deny the Greek heritage of Cyprus.

The Ottomans gave away Cyprus for its own protection and that is a 'full-stop'. End of story.

But when you say that it was not theirs to give, you open up a new kettle of fish. The Otto's got Cyprus from the Venetians, Do you give Cyprus back to them? and then to the Lusignans, the Templarw Isaac Comnenus....ad infinitum.

Intelligent people (you are one I am sure) should not make remarks that mean nothing. In the days of Empires, little conquered nations had no say. It was legal. Now it is different . We have come along and try to abide by new laws in a new world order. I admit some are more abiding by these rules and some are not.

[BirKibrisli]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

But they did not sell the car,Oracle...They were forced to give it away......

Stop right there, (I have truncated your response) and reflect on what you've just said!

You say the Otto-Turks were "forced" to give Cyprus away (to GB)? Something which was not theirs to give in the first place ... and somehow that "wrong" justifies Turkey re-consuming the island?

I will give you the treatment I am givin to Piratis from now on...
go and check your history...The Ottomans had leased Cyprus to Britain in 1878 or thereabouts,and the British had unilaterally annexed it at the beginning of WWI...In 1923 the fledgling Turkish Republic was forced to sign away her rights over Cyprus...Just like you claim Makarios was forced to sign the 1960 agreements which brought about the republic of Cyprus...If it is good for the GCs to say "we didnt mean it"" it is for Turkey as well..They didnt mean to sign it away...So there!!

You illiterate turd. I have no idea why Oracle bothers to explain and re-explain things to morons such as yourself.

There is a legal rule in use in courtrooms all over the civilised world today that was so obvious to the ancients that the latin name given to the rule by the Romans 2,000 years ago is still the way it is referred to in across the world: Nemo dat quod non habet...one cannot give what one does not have. Do you suppose the rightful owners, the rightful heirs to this island will forget their inheritance in the years since 1974, since 1878 or since 1570? Don't forget that we were here first, and we will be here last..."Not till the whole world ends will the Greek race vanish!"

Excuse me ,sir...But have we been introduced...???How did you know I was illiterate and a turd at that...Oh I forgot the "moron" bit...
I suppose you believe calling people names makes you a civilised member of the Greek race???You do not deserve a reply but i will have a go...I too hope that the Greek race,which is a glorious civilisation,will last forever...The world would have been a much poorer place without the Greeks...Cyprus however belongs to her people,the Cypriots...So please take your fanatical and bigotted megalo ideas,and go home wherever that is... Greeks are decent,loving,welcoming and embracing people...You cannot possibly be one of them...

[Tim Drayton]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

But they did not sell the car,Oracle...They were forced to give it away......

Stop right there, (I have truncated your response) and reflect on what you've just said!

You say the Otto-Turks were "forced" to give Cyprus away (to GB)? Something which was not theirs to give in the first place ... and somehow that "wrong" justifies Turkey re-consuming the island?

I will give you the treatment I am givin to Piratis from now on...
go and check your history...The Ottomans had leased Cyprus to Britain in 1878 or thereabouts,and the British had unilaterally annexed it at the beginning of WWI...In 1923 the fledgling Turkish Republic was forced to sign away her rights over Cyprus...Just like you claim Makarios was forced to sign the 1960 agreements which brought about the republic of Cyprus...If it is good for the GCs to say "we didnt mean it"" it is for Turkey as well..They didnt mean to sign it away...So there!!

You illiterate turd. I have no idea why Oracle bothers to explain and re-explain things to morons such as yourself.

There is a legal rule in use in courtrooms all over the civilised world today that was so obvious to the ancients that the latin name given to the rule by the Romans 2,000 years ago is still the way it is referred to in across the world: Nemo dat quod non habet...one cannot give what one does not have. Do you suppose the rightful owners, the rightful heirs to this island will forget their inheritance in the years since 1974, since 1878 or since 1570? Don't forget that we were here first, and we will be here last..."Not till the whole world ends will the Greek race vanish!"

By the same token, Britain had no right to take the continent now known as Australia from its aboriginal inhabitants who had been there much longer. Anyhow, what right did the British have to call themselves the masters of the British Isles in the first place, since Celtic tribes inhabited these islands long before the Anglo-Saxons arrived and were later conquered by the Normans as late as 1066. Then again, the Celts were not the first people to live in the British Isles. The people who built Stonehenge lived ther well before the Celts made it that far west.

If you want to bandy some Latin around, how about the phrase:

Reductio ad absurdum

Anyway, this all seems to make people like yourself who have settled in Australia on the back of Britain's acquisition of the continent nothing more than carpetbaggers.