Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

But they did not sell the car,Oracle...They were forced to give it away...But they didnt have much interest in it,till the makers of the car (the British and Americans) convinced Turkey that the GCs were about to use the car as a suicide vehicle(ENOSIS) against them...You have the intelligence to grasp the point I am sure...

[BirKibrisli]

That Turkey woke up one day and decided it was a nice day to drop some napalm on Cyprus???

Bir, Turkey had a plan for the partition of Cyprus since the 50s. They didn't just wake up on morning ...

I don't know the exact facts of that story, but my best guess is that Turkey dropped those 500 people there so later she could come to "save" them by killing innocent GCs. 500 people would not move from Turkey to Cyprus without the knowledge of the Turkish army.

But why deny the actual facts on the day???The bombing was a direct response to the attack on the TC enclave...There were people lining up to watch the massacre of the TCs...I know you are finding his incredible today,but closing your mind to it will not change the facts...All I am saying is this :let us all try to be open minded about the facts and the events,not in denial that only one side is capale of attrocities,only one side is guilty of crimes against humanity...If you keep justifying everything,finding excuses to clear your side of any wrong doing,we will not get anywhere...That is the biggest obstacle to peace in Cyprus...Both sides paint themselves whiter than white..Both sides accuse the other one of everything under the sun...When both sides truly accept their part in this mess,we might find a way out...Not before..

We accepted our part in the mess Bir. But I have 2 questions for you:

1) How much responsibility the GC side has?
2) How does the past excuse the TCs from demanding yet more gains and privileges for themselves on the expense of our human and democratic rights?

You are asking simple questions regarding very complicated matters,Piratis...If you accept your part in the mess,then you accept 50-50 responsibility...

Can I accept our real part in the mess, which is far less than 50%, or you will not be satisfied unless we accept responsibility for far more than what we are really responsible for? You ask from me to acknowledge our wrong doings, and I do, but you should also acknowledge your sides wrong doings. The combined responsibility of Turkey + TCs is far more than the one of GCs and I would hope you can acknowledge this.

The picture is not that clear and simple on your second question either.
The only TCs who gained privileges from our troubles are those close to Denktas and his ruling elite,and those close to the upper echolons of the TMT...Most TCs,like myself,lost everything,including our birthright,to live peacefully without fear in our own country...It is a furphy that the TCs have gained big time from your suffering and loss...Today we are on the brink of cultural extinction...At least you have 66% of your country to practice your democratic rights in...We have become endangered species in our own county,having to justify how Turkish and how Islamic we are at every turn.Our political will have been highjacked by the settlers,and our spirit has been crushed by our"rescuers "who remind us every day we owe them our lives...Please don't talk to me about the TC gains and provileges..it is all in your head...

It is not in my head Bir. It is in the constitution which was imposed on Cyprus. E.g. that the 30% of civil servant positions (the most sought after positions in Cyprus) were given to the 18% of TCs. Isn't this a TC privilege on our expense? Is such thing fair? You didn't enjoy those privileges on our expense because those agreements collapsed.

Now I am asking you about the future: Do you think that the TCs should again have gains on our expense, and even more than those that they had with the 1960 agreements? If yes, why?

it is so frustrating discussing anything with you ,Piratis...Because you totally ignore the aguments I am making,and keep repeating your stock phrases.....Okey I will play your game..I will do the same...Now listen..
The TCs benefited from the constitution of 1960 which you are talking about for 3 short years...And it is debatable how much they benefited because it was still very much a GC dominated power structure...Yes,TCs did have a bit more than what their nembers justified,but still the GCs had the overwhelming majority in both cabinet and parliament..If you were a bit more sensitive to their fears of domination by the GCs and made that constitution work as intended,we wouldnt be in this mess...So looking from it from that angle,it is ALL your fault...100%....How do you like my argument now???I am only following your tactics...Now where will we go from here???How will we find a solution...You have been enjoying all the benefits of the constitutiion now for over 45 years...Who is the greedy one here??REmember I am using your logic now...Thinking in black and white...Tell me how you justify sitting on all the tools of power for 45 years ,getting rich,while the TC had been all but wiped out from the face of Cyprus....

[BirKibrisli]

Of course they are all Turks B25. In the eyes of the nationalists all dogs belong to the same breed. However, is it just peculiar (to say the least) that the little fascist is lecturing Birkibrisli?

I am neither little, nor a fascist, nor giving lectures, one of you were lying.

He claims TCs you claim Turks, not that can give ahoot, but get your lies straight before you spread them.

To me Birk, is just another TC trying to get things his way, but don't worry your little head, we know where you stand.

You missed Bananiot's point all together,B25..He was implying that to the GCs at the time,lining up to witness the massacre,those to be slaughtered were just "Turks",including my cousins,the 3 TC students..

And I guess those 500 TCs landed there to have a picnic and not to kill people?

Piratis,they were student in their early 20s studying in Turkey...when the 63 troubles began they thought they should get back to help their community survive what they thought was going to be an all out attack to wipe off the TCs...Turkish army gave them all a 2 week course in using firearms,and dumped them on this little enclave which was surrounded by the GC regulars and irregular (i have no midea who they were) in no time...They had no idea what they were doing...But soon found out they were mistakenly believed to be the avantgard of a Turkish military operation...Some were killed in the skirmishes,and all were in grave danger of starvation for the whole duration...This was the most bizarre chapter of the 63-74 period...People should know what really happened,dont you think???Instead of thinking that Turkey just wanted some target practice...But I suspect nothing will dent the armour of hatred and bitterness in certain people here...

What Turkey and TCs wanted was the partition of Cyprus. Do you deny this?

Piratis,again you are only considering part of the story...

Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...The British and the Americans dragged the Menderes govenment kicking and screaming into the picture, just as the GCs were taking up arms against the British in the mid 50s...If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...We were both conned by the British and American governments,to advance their own national interests at the time...You can't just wipe all this under the carpet,and blame the TCs and Turkey for everything...

Bir, I was among the first ones who talked about the role of the British.

I gave the example of Rhodes, which was an Italian colony and also has a Turkish minority, and which was united with Greece in 1947 without even a single bleeding nose.

It is a fact that the British didn't want to abandon Cyprus for their own strategic reasons, and they brought Turkey into the game, using the TC community as their pawns in order to get what they want. Cyprus is the ONLY former British colony where the British still maintain "sovereign" bases in it.

This "divide and rule" policy is not something applied only in Cyprus. In fact one of the excuses for the Armenian genocide was that the Armenians were used against the Turks in a similar way that the TCs were used against GCs in Cyprus.

But I don't know where you blame us for this. We have been asking for many decades to be given the option to peacefully and democratically decide the destiny of our own island and this was always refused to us. An armed struggle was our last resort.

Also the fact that TCs and Turkey accepted the calls of the British does not absolve them from their responsibility. And I don't agree that they were "dragged kicking and screaming". They had a lot to gain from their collaboration with the British against GCs, and nothing to lose. So it seems to me that they gladly accepted the proposals of the British.

There is little point discussing anything with you,Piratis,untill you truly understand,deep in your heart,What ENOSIS symbolised for the TCs,how much they feared for their lives,and how everything they did stemmed from this demand by GCs to join with Greece..When you truly understand that point we can talk about the rest...

[BirKibrisli]

You're right BirKibrisli, you're not old, but old enough! The fact is that the generations of TCs and GCs that have had power since 1974, which includes your generation, have not been able to solve the CyProb. Time to hand over to a new generation, and my opinion is that the word will get back to the north from those brave and courageous TCs now living in the free south that a safe and prosperous life as an EU citizen is possible surrounded by GCs. Imagine what will be possible when reunification occurs - the goodwill to TCs, the opportunities for education, prosperity, freedom of expression within a modern, democratic EU state. If I was a young TC that is what I'd want - to stand proud as a free individual with the power to vote within a reunified island, rather than to hide behind an occupying army, to be forced to tow the Turkish line, to be denied opportunities available to my fellow Cypriots.

i used to think just like you do,Talisker...The future is in the hands of the young,they have not been exposed to the traumas of hot civil war as we ahve been,so they will go forth and make peace...times had changed etc etc...But I was wrong...The young today have more deeply entrenched suspision and bitterness towards the other side..Because they have learned everyting second hand from their parents,grandparents,and totally absorbed their hatreds and prejudices...It is hopeless..You can see it in Piratis,you can see it in Oracle,you can see it in B25,in Paphidis, you name them...We at least knew that our side was not whiter than white,that we had committed terrible acts of violence and trechery against our brothers and sisters...The present generation is totally in denial...They blame eveything on the other side...They are not prepared to even consider their role in this catastrophy...That is why this problem will never be solve by negotiations...If the GCs insist on not compromising from their full democracy now or nothing approach,this problem will be solved by war...Because the hatred and bitterness will keep building up,building up,till one day some maniac from one side or the other will attempt the final solution...Then the bloodshed will make the attrocities so far look like...a walk in the park...I hope I will not be around to see that day...

[Piratis]

That Turkey woke up one day and decided it was a nice day to drop some napalm on Cyprus???

Bir, Turkey had a plan for the partition of Cyprus since the 50s. They didn't just wake up on morning ...

I don't know the exact facts of that story, but my best guess is that Turkey dropped those 500 people there so later she could come to "save" them by killing innocent GCs. 500 people would not move from Turkey to Cyprus without the knowledge of the Turkish army.

But why deny the actual facts on the day???The bombing was a direct response to the attack on the TC enclave...There were people lining up to watch the massacre of the TCs...I know you are finding his incredible today,but closing your mind to it will not change the facts...All I am saying is this :let us all try to be open minded about the facts and the events,not in denial that only one side is capale of attrocities,only one side is guilty of crimes against humanity...If you keep justifying everything,finding excuses to clear your side of any wrong doing,we will not get anywhere...That is the biggest obstacle to peace in Cyprus...Both sides paint themselves whiter than white..Both sides accuse the other one of everything under the sun...When both sides truly accept their part in this mess,we might find a way out...Not before..

We accepted our part in the mess Bir. But I have 2 questions for you:

1) How much responsibility the GC side has?
2) How does the past excuse the TCs from demanding yet more gains and privileges for themselves on the expense of our human and democratic rights?

You are asking simple questions regarding very complicated matters,Piratis...If you accept your part in the mess,then you accept 50-50 responsibility...

Can I accept our real part in the mess, which is far less than 50%, or you will not be satisfied unless we accept responsibility for far more than what we are really responsible for? You ask from me to acknowledge our wrong doings, and I do, but you should also acknowledge your sides wrong doings. The combined responsibility of Turkey + TCs is far more than the one of GCs and I would hope you can acknowledge this.

The picture is not that clear and simple on your second question either.
The only TCs who gained privileges from our troubles are those close to Denktas and his ruling elite,and those close to the upper echolons of the TMT...Most TCs,like myself,lost everything,including our birthright,to live peacefully without fear in our own country...It is a furphy that the TCs have gained big time from your suffering and loss...Today we are on the brink of cultural extinction...At least you have 66% of your country to practice your democratic rights in...We have become endangered species in our own county,having to justify how Turkish and how Islamic we are at every turn.Our political will have been highjacked by the settlers,and our spirit has been crushed by our"rescuers "who remind us every day we owe them our lives...Please don't talk to me about the TC gains and provileges..it is all in your head...

It is not in my head Bir. It is in the constitution which was imposed on Cyprus. E.g. that the 30% of civil servant positions (the most sought after positions in Cyprus) were given to the 18% of TCs. Isn't this a TC privilege on our expense? Is such thing fair? You didn't enjoy those privileges on our expense because those agreements collapsed.

Now I am asking you about the future: Do you think that the TCs should again have gains on our expense, and even more than those that they had with the 1960 agreements? If yes, why?

it is so frustrating discussing anything with you ,Piratis...Because you totally ignore the aguments I am making,and keep repeating your stock phrases.....Okey I will play your game..I will do the same...Now listen..
The TCs benefited from the constitution of 1960 which you are talking about for 3 short years...And it is debatable how much they benefited because it was still very much a GC dominated power structure...Yes,TCs did have a bit more than what their nembers justified,but still the GCs had the overwhelming majority in both cabinet and parliament..If you were a bit more sensitive to their fears of domination by the GCs and made that constitution work as intended,we wouldnt be in this mess...So looking from it from that angle,it is ALL your fault...100%....How do you like my argument now???I am only following your tactics...Now where will we go from here???How will we find a solution...You have been enjoying all the benefits of the constitutiion now for over 45 years...Who is the greedy one here??REmember I am using your logic now...Thinking in black and white...Tell me how you justify sitting on all the tools of power for 45 years ,getting rich,while the TC had been all but wiped out from the face of Cyprus....

No, you are not using my logic. Because with my logic nobody is punished and nobody is rewarded based on what happened in the past.

The logic you are using is the logic of VP: Trying to blame us for what happened in the past and in this way excuse yet more crimes and human rights violations against us.

Now I want to hear YOUR logic. So I ask you again: Do you think that the TCs should again have gains on our expense, and even more than those that they had with the 1960 agreements? If yes, why?

If you share the VP logic, then please let me know. And then I will give you a detailed reply to what you said using the VP logic.

[Oracle]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

But they did not sell the car,Oracle...They were forced to give it away......

Stop right there, (I have truncated your response) and reflect on what you've just said!

You say the Otto-Turks were "forced" to give Cyprus away (to GB)? Something which was not theirs to give in the first place ... and somehow that "wrong" justifies Turkey re-consuming the island?

[Piratis]

Of course they are all Turks B25. In the eyes of the nationalists all dogs belong to the same breed. However, is it just peculiar (to say the least) that the little fascist is lecturing Birkibrisli?

I am neither little, nor a fascist, nor giving lectures, one of you were lying.

He claims TCs you claim Turks, not that can give ahoot, but get your lies straight before you spread them.

To me Birk, is just another TC trying to get things his way, but don't worry your little head, we know where you stand.

You missed Bananiot's point all together,B25..He was implying that to the GCs at the time,lining up to witness the massacre,those to be slaughtered were just "Turks",including my cousins,the 3 TC students..

And I guess those 500 TCs landed there to have a picnic and not to kill people?

Piratis,they were student in their early 20s studying in Turkey...when the 63 troubles began they thought they should get back to help their community survive what they thought was going to be an all out attack to wipe off the TCs...Turkish army gave them all a 2 week course in using firearms,and dumped them on this little enclave which was surrounded by the GC regulars and irregular (i have no midea who they were) in no time...They had no idea what they were doing...But soon found out they were mistakenly believed to be the avantgard of a Turkish military operation...Some were killed in the skirmishes,and all were in grave danger of starvation for the whole duration...This was the most bizarre chapter of the 63-74 period...People should know what really happened,dont you think???Instead of thinking that Turkey just wanted some target practice...But I suspect nothing will dent the armour of hatred and bitterness in certain people here...

What Turkey and TCs wanted was the partition of Cyprus. Do you deny this?

Piratis,again you are only considering part of the story...

Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...The British and the Americans dragged the Menderes govenment kicking and screaming into the picture, just as the GCs were taking up arms against the British in the mid 50s...If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...We were both conned by the British and American governments,to advance their own national interests at the time...You can't just wipe all this under the carpet,and blame the TCs and Turkey for everything...

Bir, I was among the first ones who talked about the role of the British.

I gave the example of Rhodes, which was an Italian colony and also has a Turkish minority, and which was united with Greece in 1947 without even a single bleeding nose.

It is a fact that the British didn't want to abandon Cyprus for their own strategic reasons, and they brought Turkey into the game, using the TC community as their pawns in order to get what they want. Cyprus is the ONLY former British colony where the British still maintain "sovereign" bases in it.

This "divide and rule" policy is not something applied only in Cyprus. In fact one of the excuses for the Armenian genocide was that the Armenians were used against the Turks in a similar way that the TCs were used against GCs in Cyprus.

But I don't know where you blame us for this. We have been asking for many decades to be given the option to peacefully and democratically decide the destiny of our own island and this was always refused to us. An armed struggle was our last resort.

Also the fact that TCs and Turkey accepted the calls of the British does not absolve them from their responsibility. And I don't agree that they were "dragged kicking and screaming". They had a lot to gain from their collaboration with the British against GCs, and nothing to lose. So it seems to me that they gladly accepted the proposals of the British.

There is little point discussing anything with you,Piratis,untill you truly understand,deep in your heart,What ENOSIS symbolised for the TCs,how much they feared for their lives,and how everything they did stemmed from this demand by GCs to join with Greece..When you truly understand that point we can talk about the rest...

Why the Turkish minority in Rhodes didn't react in the same way as the TCs when Rhodes was united with Greece in 1947?

I don't question how you felt. The question is why you felt in that way, and why you reacted in that way, while the Turkish minority in Rhodes did not.

This quote from a British anti-GC side says a lot when referring to the beginning of the inter-communal conflict in the 50s:

The Turkish community was whipped into a frenzy by broadcasts from Turkey calling for the partition of Cyprus. Violence between the turks and Cypriots broke out in early June and climaxed when eight Greeks were massacred in a cornfield near the Turkish village of Geunyeli.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/war.html

The fact dear Bir is that Britian and Turkey used the TC minority by exaggerating their fears and offering to them rewards (half of Cyprus) in order to turn them against the majority of Cypriots.

You earlier tried to excuse the TCs and even Turkey by pointing to the role of the AngloAmericans. Now it seems you want to blame everything on the GCs again

[denizaksulu]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

But they did not sell the car,Oracle...They were forced to give it away......

Stop right there, (I have truncated your response) and reflect on what you've just said!

You say the Otto-Turks were "forced" to give Cyprus away (to GB)? Something which was not theirs to give in the first place ... and somehow that "wrong" justifies Turkey re-consuming the island?

Stop right there (I have (also) truncated your response).

Cyprus, like many other nations in Europe, Asia and Africa were rightly or wrongly part of the Ottoman Empire. Thus legally It was theirs. So there!!!


OMG, what have I opened up now?

[Piratis]

Cyprus, like many other nations in Europe, Asia and Africa were rightly or wrongly part of the Ottoman Empire. Thus legally It was theirs. So there!!!

It was not theirs since they surrendered their rights to the British.

Most importantly, Colonization and such empires were declared illegal by the UN. From then on the right of the Cypriot people to own their own island was internationally recognized and no former empire can have any claim on Cyprus.

[denizaksulu]

Cyprus, like many other nations in Europe, Asia and Africa were rightly or wrongly part of the Ottoman Empire. Thus legally It was theirs. So there!!!

It was not theirs since they surrendered their rights to the British.

Most importantly, Colonization and such empires were declared illegal by the UN. From then on the right of the Cypriot people to own their own island was internationally recognized and no former empire can have any claim on Cyprus.

Mr.



We are talking 1878. Please remind us when the United Nations was formed.