Cyprus-Forum.com

[Expatkiwi]

[quote="BirKibrisli]
Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...The British and the Americans dragged the Menderes govenment kicking and screaming into the picture, just as the GCs were taking up arms against the British in the mid 50s...If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...We were both conned by the British and American governments,to advance their own national interests at the time...You can't just wipe all this under the carpet,and blame the TCs and Turkey for everything...[/quote]

Well, they are already doing a good job of blaming TC's and Turkey for everything, so they're unlikely to abandon something that gives them pleasure...

[Oracle]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

[denizaksulu]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

It is obvious that the status of the RoT has changed since 1923; also the question of Enosis was far from their mind. IMO.

[Piratis]

That Turkey woke up one day and decided it was a nice day to drop some napalm on Cyprus???

Bir, Turkey had a plan for the partition of Cyprus since the 50s. They didn't just wake up on morning ...

I don't know the exact facts of that story, but my best guess is that Turkey dropped those 500 people there so later she could come to "save" them by killing innocent GCs. 500 people would not move from Turkey to Cyprus without the knowledge of the Turkish army.

But why deny the actual facts on the day???The bombing was a direct response to the attack on the TC enclave...There were people lining up to watch the massacre of the TCs...I know you are finding his incredible today,but closing your mind to it will not change the facts...All I am saying is this :let us all try to be open minded about the facts and the events,not in denial that only one side is capale of attrocities,only one side is guilty of crimes against humanity...If you keep justifying everything,finding excuses to clear your side of any wrong doing,we will not get anywhere...That is the biggest obstacle to peace in Cyprus...Both sides paint themselves whiter than white..Both sides accuse the other one of everything under the sun...When both sides truly accept their part in this mess,we might find a way out...Not before..

We accepted our part in the mess Bir. But I have 2 questions for you:

1) How much responsibility the GC side has?
2) How does the past excuse the TCs from demanding yet more gains and privileges for themselves on the expense of our human and democratic rights?

You are asking simple questions regarding very complicated matters,Piratis...If you accept your part in the mess,then you accept 50-50 responsibility...

Can I accept our real part in the mess, which is far less than 50%, or you will not be satisfied unless we accept responsibility for far more than what we are really responsible for? You ask from me to acknowledge our wrong doings, and I do, but you should also acknowledge your sides wrong doings. The combined responsibility of Turkey + TCs is far more than the one of GCs and I would hope you can acknowledge this.

The picture is not that clear and simple on your second question either.
The only TCs who gained privileges from our troubles are those close to Denktas and his ruling elite,and those close to the upper echolons of the TMT...Most TCs,like myself,lost everything,including our birthright,to live peacefully without fear in our own country...It is a furphy that the TCs have gained big time from your suffering and loss...Today we are on the brink of cultural extinction...At least you have 66% of your country to practice your democratic rights in...We have become endangered species in our own county,having to justify how Turkish and how Islamic we are at every turn.Our political will have been highjacked by the settlers,and our spirit has been crushed by our"rescuers "who remind us every day we owe them our lives...Please don't talk to me about the TC gains and provileges..it is all in your head...

It is not in my head Bir. It is in the constitution which was imposed on Cyprus. E.g. that the 30% of civil servant positions (the most sought after positions in Cyprus) were given to the 18% of TCs. Isn't this a TC privilege on our expense? Is such thing fair? You didn't enjoy those privileges on our expense because those agreements collapsed.

Now I am asking you about the future: Do you think that the TCs should again have gains on our expense, and even more than those that they had with the 1960 agreements? If yes, why?

[Oracle]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

It is obvious that the status of the RoT has changed since 1923; also the question of Enosis was far from their mind. IMO.

"Enosis" otherwise known as 'freedom from the Otto-Turkish yoke' was a possibility since the 1821 freedom revolution in the Hellenic world ....

Why was it such a "surprise" to Turkey, long after it had sold its interest in Cyprus?

Methinks they are an untrustworthy, backstabbing lot these Turks ...

[Piratis]

Of course they are all Turks B25. In the eyes of the nationalists all dogs belong to the same breed. However, is it just peculiar (to say the least) that the little fascist is lecturing Birkibrisli?

I am neither little, nor a fascist, nor giving lectures, one of you were lying.

He claims TCs you claim Turks, not that can give ahoot, but get your lies straight before you spread them.

To me Birk, is just another TC trying to get things his way, but don't worry your little head, we know where you stand.

You missed Bananiot's point all together,B25..He was implying that to the GCs at the time,lining up to witness the massacre,those to be slaughtered were just "Turks",including my cousins,the 3 TC students..

And I guess those 500 TCs landed there to have a picnic and not to kill people?

Piratis,they were student in their early 20s studying in Turkey...when the 63 troubles began they thought they should get back to help their community survive what they thought was going to be an all out attack to wipe off the TCs...Turkish army gave them all a 2 week course in using firearms,and dumped them on this little enclave which was surrounded by the GC regulars and irregular (i have no midea who they were) in no time...They had no idea what they were doing...But soon found out they were mistakenly believed to be the avantgard of a Turkish military operation...Some were killed in the skirmishes,and all were in grave danger of starvation for the whole duration...This was the most bizarre chapter of the 63-74 period...People should know what really happened,dont you think???Instead of thinking that Turkey just wanted some target practice...But I suspect nothing will dent the armour of hatred and bitterness in certain people here...

What Turkey and TCs wanted was the partition of Cyprus. Do you deny this?

Piratis,again you are only considering part of the story...

Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...The British and the Americans dragged the Menderes govenment kicking and screaming into the picture, just as the GCs were taking up arms against the British in the mid 50s...If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...We were both conned by the British and American governments,to advance their own national interests at the time...You can't just wipe all this under the carpet,and blame the TCs and Turkey for everything...

Bir, I was among the first ones who talked about the role of the British.

I gave the example of Rhodes, which was an Italian colony and also has a Turkish minority, and which was united with Greece in 1947 without even a single bleeding nose.

It is a fact that the British didn't want to abandon Cyprus for their own strategic reasons, and they brought Turkey into the game, using the TC community as their pawns in order to get what they want. Cyprus is the ONLY former British colony where the British still maintain "sovereign" bases in it.

This "divide and rule" policy is not something applied only in Cyprus. In fact one of the excuses for the Armenian genocide was that the Armenians were used against the Turks in a similar way that the TCs were used against GCs in Cyprus.

But I don't know where you blame us for this. We have been asking for many decades to be given the option to peacefully and democratically decide the destiny of our own island and this was always refused to us. An armed struggle was our last resort.

Also the fact that TCs and Turkey accepted the calls of the British does not absolve them from their responsibility. And I don't agree that they were "dragged kicking and screaming". They had a lot to gain from their collaboration with the British against GCs, and nothing to lose. So it seems to me that they gladly accepted the proposals of the British.

[Talisker]

You are making a big mistake approaching this issue from political and economic point of view,Talisker...The reasons why the average Tc will not trust the mechanism of ROC democracy is emotional...And the key to that is found in the TC experience during the dark years of 1960 to 74...

If the GCs are not willing to come to terms with this period,if they keep sweeping it under the carpet,if they keep addressing Cyprus problem simply as one side trying to rob the other of property and illegal gains,we will NEVER get anywhere...This is the conclusion I have come to after long and careful consideration...The GC are in total denial as to the root cause of the TC mistrust...They can only see the pain and sufering of their own after 74,turning a blind eye to the TC pain and suffering before that time...
Please try to get them to take a hard look at themselves,find the courage to admit their part in this mess,then we might get somewhere...
Jews are happy to return to Germany now because they feel perfectly safe...The German people have disowned and repudiated Hitler and his Nazi regime..They have acknowledged the wrongs done,provided compensation,and swore never such attrocities would take place...What steps has the ROC taken to foster trust and understanding between the communities? What steps to ease the fear and mistrust?The person who was the archenemy,the symbol for oppression for the TCs (for his role in the Akritas plan etc) was President of the ROC for over 5 years...What message do you think that gave to the TCs...???? No amount of logical or economical or political appeal or coersion will equal one simple emotional appeal backed by tangible measures to increase the respect and trust between communities...Only then will the TCs consider walking in the sun without a hat and sunscreen...This is not what I want,but it is what I see. Time for all to get out of their comfortable bunkers and face the realities in Cyprus...Throwing insults like "cowards,thieves,whatever..." will only work to drive the TCs further away... Trying to goad or shame the TCs to give up what they see is their hard won protection of Turkey will only backfire...I am suprised people intelligent enough to use this forum cannot see this simple fact...

BirKibrisli, many thanks for your very honest view on the issues we are discussing. I mean no disrespect in this response whatsoever, but Birkibrisli I'm afraid your views are those of an old man, a man who looks backwards to the times when yes, there was conflict and killing, and not forwards (after all, with age should come wisdom!). And, you know, maybe your views are understandable for your generation, but times have moved on, and I really feel that you need to look ahead for the best opportunities for future TC generations. Will this be in the isolated and illegal north under the overwhelming influence of Turkey (itself politically isolated from Europe), or with their fellow Cypriots within the European Union with all the advantages, including security, that would bring?

I am 58 years old,Talisker...That hardly makes me an old man!!!

But even if I was 90,how would that negate my feelings,thoughts,experiences???

People keep asking for eye witness accounts...When we,who have lived through most of the worst,talk about it,it becomes rumblings of an old man!!! I am only trying to point out why the TCs feel the way they do,and where to look for the answers...People can take it or leave it...This is for sure: unless we deal with the past events,which historically speaking is really very recent (50 years is nothing in historical terms) we will not find the necessary will,motivation and desire to move on...Trying to belittle or shame the TCs into coming to the party will not work..I am telling you what will,but noone is listening..Oh well,at least I tried...

You're right BirKibrisli, you're not old, but old enough! The fact is that the generations of TCs and GCs that have had power since 1974, which includes your generation, have not been able to solve the CyProb. Time to hand over to a new generation, and my opinion is that the word will get back to the north from those brave and courageous TCs now living in the free south that a safe and prosperous life as an EU citizen is possible surrounded by GCs. Imagine what will be possible when reunification occurs - the goodwill to TCs, the opportunities for education, prosperity, freedom of expression within a modern, democratic EU state. If I was a young TC that is what I'd want - to stand proud as a free individual with the power to vote within a reunified island, rather than to hide behind an occupying army, to be forced to tow the Turkish line, to be denied opportunities available to my fellow Cypriots.

[denizaksulu]

[Turkey had washed her hands of Cyprus in 1923 when they signed it away...They had no interest in none of it...

Can you see how the claim above contradicts the claim below?

If you had not started the ENOSIS campaign,and tried to force it by an underground armed struggle led my the EOKA ,TAKSIM (partition)would never have become unofficial Turkish policy...

If someone has sold their car, they don't get to say who the passengers are for evermore ....

It is obvious that the status of the RoT has changed since 1923; also the question of Enosis was far from their mind. IMO.

"Enosis" otherwise known as 'freedom from the Otto-Turkish yoke' was a possibility since the 1821 freedom revolution in the Hellenic world ....

Why was it such a "surprise" to Turkey, long after it had sold its interest in Cyprus?

Methinks they are an untrustworthy, backstabbing lot these Turks ...

We are not discussing the rights and wrongs of the matter here. I am trying to point out why Cyprus was sidelined/forgotten /ignored at Lausanne. Turkey had just managed to survive after years of continuous wars with its neighbours. Their first priority was to secure the frontiers of the new republic. They were in no position for any overseas adventure. To me it seems that once Turkey felt strong enough and world politics changed (the position of Turkey in NATO - USA) it felt it could look further accross the blue seas. That is how I see it. Was it right or wrong, that is a different issue. If you are asking me - they were wrong, but perhaps they thought that the Colonial power at the time might return if not the whole of the island, at least half of it to the Turks/TC;s as you put it.

What was going in their minds at the time is anyones guess. Now we know.

Personally I am not surprised at Turkeys interest as it was common practice of Imperialists to try toprotect their 'kindred' peoples left behind in splintered empires. Europe (and the world) is full of such nations with these minorities. They have always tried to stick their nose into their neighours internal affairs with the pretext of protecting minority rights. The cause of many a conflict.

[Talisker]

You are making a big mistake approaching this issue from political and economic point of view,Talisker...The reasons why the average Tc will not trust the mechanism of ROC democracy is emotional...And the key to that is found in the TC experience during the dark years of 1960 to 74...

If the GCs are not willing to come to terms with this period,if they keep sweeping it under the carpet,if they keep addressing Cyprus problem simply as one side trying to rob the other of property and illegal gains,we will NEVER get anywhere...This is the conclusion I have come to after long and careful consideration...The GC are in total denial as to the root cause of the TC mistrust...They can only see the pain and sufering of their own after 74,turning a blind eye to the TC pain and suffering before that time...
Please try to get them to take a hard look at themselves,find the courage to admit their part in this mess,then we might get somewhere...
Jews are happy to return to Germany now because they feel perfectly safe...The German people have disowned and repudiated Hitler and his Nazi regime..They have acknowledged the wrongs done,provided compensation,and swore never such attrocities would take place...What steps has the ROC taken to foster trust and understanding between the communities? What steps to ease the fear and mistrust?The person who was the archenemy,the symbol for oppression for the TCs (for his role in the Akritas plan etc) was President of the ROC for over 5 years...What message do you think that gave to the TCs...???? No amount of logical or economical or political appeal or coersion will equal one simple emotional appeal backed by tangible measures to increase the respect and trust between communities...Only then will the TCs consider walking in the sun without a hat and sunscreen...This is not what I want,but it is what I see. Time for all to get out of their comfortable bunkers and face the realities in Cyprus...Throwing insults like "cowards,thieves,whatever..." will only work to drive the TCs further away... Trying to goad or shame the TCs to give up what they see is their hard won protection of Turkey will only backfire...I am suprised people intelligent enough to use this forum cannot see this simple fact...

BirKibrisli, many thanks for your very honest view on the issues we are discussing. I mean no disrespect in this response whatsoever, but Birkibrisli I'm afraid your views are those of an old man, a man who looks backwards to the times when yes, there was conflict and killing, and not forwards (after all, with age should come wisdom!). And, you know, maybe your views are understandable for your generation, but times have moved on, and I really feel that you need to look ahead for the best opportunities for future TC generations. Will this be in the isolated and illegal north under the overwhelming influence of Turkey (itself politically isolated from Europe), or with their fellow Cypriots within the European Union with all the advantages, including security, that would bring?

Talisker, it has nothing to do with 'his (BK) generation'. I am slightly older than BK. I lived through the travails of Cyprus. I remember and have been a first hand eyewitness to a lot of 'nastiness' from both communities. Yet I do not fear the Greek Cypriots and I would not hesistate to live among my Greek Cypriot compatriots.
However, BK does make one valid point - that of each 'community' owning up to their own shortcomings in the event that led up to the 'Cyprus Problem'. The politicians should help with this 'reconciliation' and the militants on both sides should stfu.

I've noticed that when the debate reaches a certain point even some of the more strident forumers from either side of the argument acknowledge that their side carried out atrocities against the other (although often citing the other side as the provoking the unreasonable response). If some of these people can admit such a belief then I'm sure, if they really wanted to, the politicians could.

[denizaksulu]

You are making a big mistake approaching this issue from political and economic point of view,Talisker...The reasons why the average Tc will not trust the mechanism of ROC democracy is emotional...And the key to that is found in the TC experience during the dark years of 1960 to 74...

If the GCs are not willing to come to terms with this period,if they keep sweeping it under the carpet,if they keep addressing Cyprus problem simply as one side trying to rob the other of property and illegal gains,we will NEVER get anywhere...This is the conclusion I have come to after long and careful consideration...The GC are in total denial as to the root cause of the TC mistrust...They can only see the pain and sufering of their own after 74,turning a blind eye to the TC pain and suffering before that time...
Please try to get them to take a hard look at themselves,find the courage to admit their part in this mess,then we might get somewhere...
Jews are happy to return to Germany now because they feel perfectly safe...The German people have disowned and repudiated Hitler and his Nazi regime..They have acknowledged the wrongs done,provided compensation,and swore never such attrocities would take place...What steps has the ROC taken to foster trust and understanding between the communities? What steps to ease the fear and mistrust?The person who was the archenemy,the symbol for oppression for the TCs (for his role in the Akritas plan etc) was President of the ROC for over 5 years...What message do you think that gave to the TCs...???? No amount of logical or economical or political appeal or coersion will equal one simple emotional appeal backed by tangible measures to increase the respect and trust between communities...Only then will the TCs consider walking in the sun without a hat and sunscreen...This is not what I want,but it is what I see. Time for all to get out of their comfortable bunkers and face the realities in Cyprus...Throwing insults like "cowards,thieves,whatever..." will only work to drive the TCs further away... Trying to goad or shame the TCs to give up what they see is their hard won protection of Turkey will only backfire...I am suprised people intelligent enough to use this forum cannot see this simple fact...

BirKibrisli, many thanks for your very honest view on the issues we are discussing. I mean no disrespect in this response whatsoever, but Birkibrisli I'm afraid your views are those of an old man, a man who looks backwards to the times when yes, there was conflict and killing, and not forwards (after all, with age should come wisdom!). And, you know, maybe your views are understandable for your generation, but times have moved on, and I really feel that you need to look ahead for the best opportunities for future TC generations. Will this be in the isolated and illegal north under the overwhelming influence of Turkey (itself politically isolated from Europe), or with their fellow Cypriots within the European Union with all the advantages, including security, that would bring?

Talisker, it has nothing to do with 'his (BK) generation'. I am slightly older than BK. I lived through the travails of Cyprus. I remember and have been a first hand eyewitness to a lot of 'nastiness' from both communities. Yet I do not fear the Greek Cypriots and I would not hesistate to live among my Greek Cypriot compatriots.
However, BK does make one valid point - that of each 'community' owning up to their own shortcomings in the event that led up to the 'Cyprus Problem'. The politicians should help with this 'reconciliation' and the militants on both sides should stfu.

I've noticed that when the debate reaches a certain point even some of the more strident forumers from either side of the argument acknowledge that their side carried out atrocities against the other (although often citing the other side as the provoking the unreasonable response). If some of these people can admit such a belief then I'm sure, if they really wanted to, the politicians could.

They havent got the guts to do so. They are conscious of their own perceived popularity and will defend that notion till the day they die. They will not own up. Its a small part of the island where everybody knows everybody and losing their own credibility is not on their agenda. Perhaps the next generation......................................