Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

They are all Turks Deniz, I haven't made a mistake.

Sorry Bananiot. My error.

[miltiades]

Bananiot can correct my interpretation of his " they are all Turks" , it is not that he himself does not differentiate between what constitutes a T/C and a Turk but in stating they were all Turks he was , I believe , merely highlighting the stereotype description given by most G/Cs to anything Turkish and the grouping of the T/Cs with mainland Turks.
In fact the correct description has always been Turkish Cypriots .TOURKOKIPREI.

[Viewpoint]

we are the indigenous people of this island and want to be more like the Scots, with our own area and administration....thats why we support a BBF with political equality.

You do know that an Englishman can move unhindered to Scotland, live in Scotland, buy property in Scotland, work in Scotland and vote in Scotland? That he is not restricted in doing so in any way - by numbers or in rights under the UK or EU law? You do know that a Scot is a citizen of the United Kingdom and there is no such thing as Scottish citizenship? You would not deny a Greek Cypriot such rights? Or treat him as a second-class citizen in his own country?

And please bear in mind that while the Scots are the indigenous people of Scotland, the Turkish Cypriots in the north of Cyprus currently reside there only because of the forced expulsion of the original inhabitants - the Greek Cypriots. Turkish Cypriots are clearly not the indigenous people of northern Cyprus. So please be careful how you make claims to your rights. These should not be at the expense of other people's justifiable rights.

The same would apply in the north state of Cyprus people would be allowed to move and settle freely deciding which administration they would prefer to live under, we are not asking for our own parliament and law making mechanism or even currency like Scots, our indigeous claim is just as strong and vailid as the GCs and we have every right to be here.

[Bananiot]

Wasn't that obvious miltiades?

[miltiades]

Wasn't that obvious miltiades?

But of course .

[Oracle]

.. Jews are happy to return to Germany now because they feel perfectly safe...The German people have disowned and repudiated Hitler and his Nazi regime.. (

Have you disowned and repudiated Turkey who slaughtered GCs by the thousands and ethnically cleansed nearly a third of the GC population?

I was just pointing out one of the differences faced by the Jews in Germany and TCs in Cyprus,Oracle...My thoughts about the events of 74 are well known...Turkey was justified in the original intervention. As a guarantor of the independence of the Republic of Cyprus they had the right and duty to come in order to restore Cyprus's independence...They should have done it back in 1963...But,once they had stored the offically agreed government,as stipulated by the 1960 agreements they should have left...By staying they have become invaders...

So then do you disown and repudiate Turkey and demand its immediate and unconditional withdrawal so that trust and bridge-building measures can start, as they did upon the removal of the Nazis?

(BTW ... Turkey did try and invade in 1964 after they set-up excuses by attacking the Constitution. They bombed and shelled my village near Polis, and Napalmed the vicinity.)

The German Jews did not return to Germany the day after the Nazi regime collapsed...They waited for decades to see what bridge-building measures would be put in place first...

I know the incident you are talking about...Again you are only telling half the story...Turkey bombed the koccina area because 500 poorly armed and misguided TC students(who had landed there from Turkey)were under seige by the GCs and in imminent danger of being massacred...3 of my cousins were amongst them...They had said their goodbyes and were awaiting the final GC assault...Having said that,I can imagine how terrfying it must've been for the civilians in the area who would have become casualties...I dont know how true it is,but there were stories at the time of convoys of GC civilians lining up on nearby hills to witness the massacre of the TCs...But tell me Oracle,did you ever stop and think why Turkey would ahve taken such an extreme measure???Did you ever ask people why the bombs fell from the sky??? And what was their explanation...I am truly curious about this point...

I didn't give only half of the story. We were discussing something else and this was an aside. I told you what I knew from experience of the time. The rest is hearsay, and you gave your half of the hearsay.

I do know, now, that Turkey had been planning to divide the island from years before. This was their first major as you say "extreme measure" ... obviously not extreme enough to fulfil their plans, which is why they repeated it in 1974 and succeeded.

As I said Bir ... the facts point to what we see today! Nothing has changed. The Turks-TCs have always oppressed us and have been looking for ways to steal our island ever since they reneged on their deal with Britain. The facts are OBSERVABLE TODAY!

[Expatkiwi]

I do know, now, that Turkey had been planning to divide the island from years before. This was their first major as you say "extreme measure" ... obviously not extreme enough to fulfil their plans, which is why they repeated it in 1974 and succeeded.

As I said Bir ... the facts point to what we see today! Nothing has changed. The Turks-TCs have always oppressed us and have been looking for ways to steal our island ever since they reneged on their deal with Britain. The facts are OBSERVABLE TODAY!

I do understand that Turkey did have partition plans for Cyprus in the 1950's, and the partnership republic must have been as much a dissapointment to them as to Greece. Still, I'm yet to be convinced that the TC's actions in the 1960 - 1963 government was as a result of direct meddling from Ankara, given the disproportionate split of the government in the TC's favor.

[Talisker]

we are the indigenous people of this island and want to be more like the Scots, with our own area and administration....thats why we support a BBF with political equality.

Viewpoint, there is only any point in having a discussion if you resist slipping into fantasyland!

C'mon man, this is complete and under historical revisionism of the worst type. How can TCs even consider comparing themselves with the Scots, a truly indigenous people within their own land, a nation that has previously been independent with a millenium or more of cultural, political and monarchic identity which differentiates them from the English? Scots did not steal land with the help of a bullying big brother - exactly what the TCs have done, and which you refuse to acknowledge by hiding behind the most ridiculous fabricated claims and excuses. You throw out unsubstantiated claims, e.g. 'the GCs are the most racist people in Europe'. You need to back this up with quantitative evidence rather than just spouting your opinion.

Talisker

Numerous Turkish Cypriots have bitten the bullet and moved South and live and work in the local community around Paphos. I imagine these people will be classed as traitors by some from the North though no doubt they are here. They mingle with the locals in the shops, supermarkets, restaurants and Taverna’s. I can’t say I’ve seen a lynching in the streets or vigilantes hunting them down though unbelievable as it may seem to some from the North; they appear to be treated the same way as everyone else here. I only know they are Turkish Cypriots because my wife is Turkic and often comments about Turkish being spoken. To me the men look like Greek Cypriots (not like the Turkish people I work with) and it is very difficult to differentiate between the two; the give away for the Turkish Cypriot ladies is that they tend to wear Headscarves. Maybe these ladies and gentlemen are made of sterner stuff than some of our contributors?

Jimski999

And VP, as we heard from Jimski999, some TCs at least are realising that the opportunities available in the illegal north are limited and yes, they have the courage to come south and live within 'your' enemy, the GCs. The sad thing is that the extremist partitionists such as you do the TC youth no favours - you deprive them of opportunity, you fill them with unjustified fears (we all know you don't respect GCs, but you clearly also don't respect basic democratic principles, and this will ultimately be to the detriment of your own people), and you encourage the extinction of the TC identity as the best of your people leave (for the south or elsewhere) to better themselves. Time to get your head out of the sand, VP!

[Talisker]

You are making a big mistake approaching this issue from political and economic point of view,Talisker...The reasons why the average Tc will not trust the mechanism of ROC democracy is emotional...And the key to that is found in the TC experience during the dark years of 1960 to 74...

If the GCs are not willing to come to terms with this period,if they keep sweeping it under the carpet,if they keep addressing Cyprus problem simply as one side trying to rob the other of property and illegal gains,we will NEVER get anywhere...This is the conclusion I have come to after long and careful consideration...The GC are in total denial as to the root cause of the TC mistrust...They can only see the pain and sufering of their own after 74,turning a blind eye to the TC pain and suffering before that time...
Please try to get them to take a hard look at themselves,find the courage to admit their part in this mess,then we might get somewhere...
Jews are happy to return to Germany now because they feel perfectly safe...The German people have disowned and repudiated Hitler and his Nazi regime..They have acknowledged the wrongs done,provided compensation,and swore never such attrocities would take place...What steps has the ROC taken to foster trust and understanding between the communities? What steps to ease the fear and mistrust?The person who was the archenemy,the symbol for oppression for the TCs (for his role in the Akritas plan etc) was President of the ROC for over 5 years...What message do you think that gave to the TCs...???? No amount of logical or economical or political appeal or coersion will equal one simple emotional appeal backed by tangible measures to increase the respect and trust between communities...Only then will the TCs consider walking in the sun without a hat and sunscreen...This is not what I want,but it is what I see. Time for all to get out of their comfortable bunkers and face the realities in Cyprus...Throwing insults like "cowards,thieves,whatever..." will only work to drive the TCs further away... Trying to goad or shame the TCs to give up what they see is their hard won protection of Turkey will only backfire...I am suprised people intelligent enough to use this forum cannot see this simple fact...

BirKibrisli, many thanks for your very honest view on the issues we are discussing. I mean no disrespect in this response whatsoever, but Birkibrisli I'm afraid your views are those of an old man, a man who looks backwards to the times when yes, there was conflict and killing, and not forwards (after all, with age should come wisdom!). And, you know, maybe your views are understandable for your generation, but times have moved on, and I really feel that you need to look ahead for the best opportunities for future TC generations. Will this be in the isolated and illegal north under the overwhelming influence of Turkey (itself politically isolated from Europe), or with their fellow Cypriots within the European Union with all the advantages, including security, that would bring?

[Oracle]

I do know, now, that Turkey had been planning to divide the island from years before. This was their first major as you say "extreme measure" ... obviously not extreme enough to fulfil their plans, which is why they repeated it in 1974 and succeeded.

As I said Bir ... the facts point to what we see today! Nothing has changed. The Turks-TCs have always oppressed us and have been looking for ways to steal our island ever since they reneged on their deal with Britain. The facts are OBSERVABLE TODAY!

I do understand that Turkey did have partition plans for Cyprus in the 1950's, and the partnership republic must have been as much a dissapointment to them as to Greece.

Greece had no plans for Cyprus other than helping them with a struggle for independence. The Evidence has been presented many times on the forum

Still, I'm yet to be convinced that the TC's actions in the 1960 - 1963 government was as a result of direct meddling from Ankara, given the disproportionate split of the government in the TC's favor.

That's because the TCs were lording it over us with their unfair gains between 1960 and 1963. As you confirm, the government was split in disproportionate favour for the TCs. So I'm sure there were no problems there. Perhaps things were too hunky-dory for the happy TCs and Ankara wanted a little more influence. Either way, the excuse came for them when talk of making the government flow more smoothly with a fairer and more democratic distribution of power in the government was to be discussed. In particular, I think the veto power of the Vice President held things up.

So, Turkey used this as an excuse (December 1963) to plant bombs and throw the country into chaos as an excuse to invade.

This they tried to do in 1964 and those are the bombings I lived through.