Cyprus-Forum.com

[Malapapa]

Unfortunately Afroasiatis is right. Citizenship birthright is deeply racialised in the UK.

Then, if this is indeed the case and is provable, it ought to be challenged.

[Oracle]

Unfortunately Afroasiatis is right. Citizenship birthright is deeply racialised in the UK.

Then, if this is indeed the case and is provable, it ought to be challenged.

There are no racist segregation laws or practices in the UK or EU, and CopperLine is trying to cloud the issue with out of context citizenship rules for which he has provided no evidence.

[CopperLine]

Unfortunately Afroasiatis is right. Citizenship birthright is deeply racialised in the UK.

Then, if this is indeed the case and is provable, it ought to be challenged.

There are no racist segregation laws or practices in the UK or EU, and CopperLine is trying to cloud the issue with out of context citizenship rules for which he has provided no evidence.

[CopperLine]

There are some people on this forum who insist on substituting their own imaginary words for words that have actually been written by posters and then try to condemn the poster for things that they never said or claimed. Very tedious and cheap to the point of worthlessness.

[Malapapa]

The point is, the EU – including Britain and the free part of Cyprus – is by no means perfect, but where practices are felt to be discriminatory they can and should be challenged, and justice will take its course. The Cyprus problem will only be solved, for all legitimate citizens, when this principle applies throughout the island.

[Oracle]

The point is, the EU – including Britain and the free part of Cyprus – is by no means perfect, but where practices are felt to be discriminatory they can and should be challenged, and justice will take its course. The Cyprus problem will only be solved, for all legitimate citizens, when this principle applies throughout the island.

We were discussing racist segregation and how this is not part of EU policy or practice.

Despite Afroasiatis' opinion that racism is a "minor problem" which the EU would waive for the benefit of Turkey continuing its GC-specific racist segregation should it be allowed to join without removing its occupation entourage; and CoperLine's clouding of the issues with out of context/unsubstantiated opinions of the UK ["Citizenship birthright is deeply racialised in the UK"] ... then it appears that there is NO WAY Turkey could access the EU whilst applying ANY of its specifically anti-GC racist policies.

[Oracle]

Turkey is adamant it does not wish to give up occupation of Cyprus and expects to be allowed into the EU still implementing GC-specific, racist segregation.

If Turkey was allowed to enter the EU without withdrawing its troops from northern Cyprus ... what would be the logistics of day to day movements around the now expanded EU?

Would there be a corner of Cyprus that would forever be unavailable to GCs? Available to Poles, French, Maltese etc ... but not GCs ... and by extension presumably Greeks from Greece.

How would this work? How could the principles of the EU function under such conditions?

If Turkey really expects to be allowed in the EU, is very questionable.

But anyway, I don't think that it's going to be a big problem for the EU to have some exceptions from its principles in small parts of its territory. I think they already accepted it for other parts.

Please tell me where racial equality has been suspended in any of the special territories in the EU. [You are confusing people with VAT ]

Monasteries like Mount Athos etc do not have restrictions on racial grounds, but sex. The EU has many exemptions (toilets, hospital wards, schools etc) based on the biological differences (known and accepted) between the sexes; but nowhere is racism acceptable.

When Cyprus accessed the EU, even the SBAs, previously restricted, entered the EU, acknowledged as part of the RoC and so that external-EU border controls did not have to apply. So too did the north. So, which EU rules and principles will have to be modified to keep the north exclusively GC free, for the sake of Turkish wishes, whilst allowing all other EU principles to apply, for the sake of Turkey's economy?

When Cyprus accessed the EU, even the SBAs, previously restricted, entered the EU, acknowledged as part of the RoC and so that external-EU border controls did not have to apply.

Try driving onto an SBA without going through a control point and then tell us how you got on.

Those are not border controls but military controls as performed in many other military zones all over the EU.

So why are there Customs men there as well as SBA police? In the UK, military bases have an armed serviceman and either a MOD security guard or MOD policeman on the gate. No comparison.

Since Cyprus accessed the EU, the SBAs also came under EU regulations as part of the RoC! Previously they were excluded as part of the UK's "overseas territories/interests". But the SBAs are ultimately the property of the RoC which is why they could no longer be excluded from the EU once the RoC had its accession in 2004. Same with the north!

As for the presence of the Police:

The Police workload is affected significantly by large numbers of holidaymakers, over 10,000 daily on the most popular tourist beaches at the height of the season, and by substantial through-traffic, there being no controlled borders between the SBAs and the Republic.

and as for "Customs":

SBA Customs and Immigration - Akrotiri
The principal activity of SBA Customs Akrotiri relates to the control of RAF Akrotiri, with flights from the UK and third countries, particularly the Middle East . Additionally the Western Sovereign Base Area has 46.5 km of coastline and associated territorial waters, to provide maritime controls SBA Customs is assisted by BFC units through close and effective liaison.

SBA Customs and Immigration - Dhekelia
A significant majority of SBA Custom’s personnel are based in the Eastern Sovereign Base Area at the two SBA land boundary crossing points with the Turkish Controlled Areas. These crossing points are manned 24 hours a day every day of the year to regulate the movement of both goods and persons in accordance with EU regulations.

http://www.sba.mod.uk/customs.htm

So there is no border between the RoC and the Bases because they are a continuation of the RoC.

[Afroasiatis]

EU doesn't have such a big problem in accepting racist restrictions. If I'm not wrong, there are EU-countries where a child born in this country doesn't automatically have the right to get its citizenship if his parents are not citizens of the country themselves. Isn't this obviously racist?

No. The rule applies whatever race or citizenship of the parents.

Well, the law in Greece was as I said it, at least until the last elections (I heard something that PASOK wants to change it now, but I'm not sure). And this is was the law in Germany too until some years ago. A child born in Greece or Germany didn't get the citizenship automatically, if his parents didn't have the citizenship themselves. So the child was not considered as a citizen although it may have lived his whole life in that country, because it didn't have the right genes. If this is not racism, then what?

The EU had no problem accepting the Anan Plan which included restrictions which could be called racist.

Some EU politicans maybe. EU law however might have taken a different view when individual citizens had tested such restictions in the relevant courts.

Practically all important EU politicians. I don't think they would be ready to accept such a plan, if it couldn't stand in court.

And you mentioned Athos. If EU can accept sexism, why not racism?

It can accept anything until such discrimination is tested in the courts and deemed unlawful. And then EU law prevails.

I'm not very well informed on this, but I think Greece was already convicted because of Athos, but somehow the sexist regulations are still applied. Was there anything new?

I think EU doesn't have a big problem in accepting minor exceptions from its principles (see Czech Republic, Aland Islands), if this serves its interests.

But those EU interests now include the interests of Cypriots who are now EU citizens. And it may not serve these individual citizens' interests to accept exceptions (whether minor or otherwise) to EU principles. And why should they?

They shouldn't. But if they don't, North Cyprus is going to be lost for ever.

And I think EU is interested in a Cyprus with clear borders, and the only way this can be achieved is through a deal with TCs and Turkey.

There can be no deals that (permanently) restrict the rights and freedoms that free Cypriots (and all other EU citizens) currently enjoy. And no one else in the EU, whether in Athens, London or Brussels, (or even politicians in Nicosia), is in a position to make such a deal.

I'm not sure about that. Look for example at Aland islands. A deal was made that restricts the rights that EU-citizens enjoy everywhere else in EU (i.e. acquiring and holding real property), and it seems that it works.

[Afroasiatis]

You have not answered the question but have merely given me your opinion that "racism is acceptable". (Citizenship formalities are not racist and there is a host of regulations to avoid racist segregation.)



So, where in the EU is racist segregation acceptable?

See my answer above.

The EU did not vote on the Annan Plan ... it was for the Cypriot people to decide, before they entered the EU.

Well, if the EU didn't agree to the Annan plan, it wouln't be brought to a referendum.

It's not sexism which is acceptable, because it is not! You are confused. I gave you the examples where due to BIOLOGICAL differences between the sexes (known) there are various exemptions (toilets, medical care etc). That's not being sexist, but tolerating biological differences and making allowances for them. Are you telling me there are racial differences that the EU will not tolerate (such as, the GCs are evil ) and instead allow the set-up of territories with exemptions from the hard-worn fundamental rules which underpin equality??

If we agree with it or not is another question, but the regulations on Athos are a clear discrimination against women. As I said, I think Greece was already convicted because of this. But if EU can somehow accept this, sure it will have no problem accepting restrictions on GCs in North Cyprus.

RACISM is NOT a minor problem!!

Certainly not, in my opinion, I agree fully with you. But for the EU, I don't think it's such a major problem.

Maybe it is for you as a Turk from Turkey

Wishful thinking perhaps? Sorry to dissapoint you, but I'm a Greek Cypriot from Strovolos.

And I think EU is interested in a Cyprus with clear borders, and the only way this can be achieved is through a deal with TCs and Turkey.

Why is that the only way?

The other ways are a war, or a socialist revolution. I'm sure EU wants neither of these two options. Can you think of anything else?

So, the only possibility left is to come in an agreement with TCs and Turkey. This means that not only the interests of TCs need to be considered (which is reasonable, I have no problem with that), but, unfortunately, also the interests of Turkey. This is a reality that all of our politicians, in Cyprus and in Greece, have accepted, if we like it or not.

[Malapapa]

EU doesn't have such a big problem in accepting racist restrictions. If I'm not wrong, there are EU-countries where a child born in this country doesn't automatically have the right to get its citizenship if his parents are not citizens of the country themselves. Isn't this obviously racist?

No. The rule applies whatever race or citizenship of the parents.

Well, the law in Greece was as I said it, at least until the last elections (I heard something that PASOK wants to change it now, but I'm not sure). And this is was the law in Germany too until some years ago. A child born in Greece or Germany didn't get the citizenship automatically, if his parents didn't have the citizenship themselves. So the child was not considered as a citizen although it may have lived his whole life in that country, because it didn't have the right genes. If this is not racism, then what?

This isn't racist. If the parents were black and the baby wasn't given citizenship, while if the parents were white and it was, that would be racist.

The EU had no problem accepting the Anan Plan which included restrictions which could be called racist.

Some EU politicans maybe. EU law however might have taken a different view when individual citizens had tested such restictions in the relevant courts.

Practically all important EU politicians. I don't think they would be ready to accept such a plan, if it couldn't stand in court.

How many of them actually read the Annan Plan in full, to make such a judgement? You trust politicians far too much.

And you mentioned Athos. If EU can accept sexism, why not racism?

It can accept anything until such discrimination is tested in the courts and deemed unlawful. And then EU law prevails.

I'm not very well informed on this, but I think Greece was already convicted because of Athos, but somehow the sexist regulations are still applied. Was there anything new?

No idea. I'm talking principles not specifics.

I think EU doesn't have a big problem in accepting minor exceptions from its principles (see Czech Republic, Aland Islands), if this serves its interests.

But those EU interests now include the interests of Cypriots who are now EU citizens. And it may not serve these individual citizens' interests to accept exceptions (whether minor or otherwise) to EU principles. And why should they?

They shouldn't. But if they don't, North Cyprus is going to be lost for ever.

If Cypriots don't stand up for their rights then it's not just the north you should be worried about. (And BTW, the northern part of Cyprus will still be the northern part of Cyprus, for many, many years to come).

And I think EU is interested in a Cyprus with clear borders, and the only way this can be achieved is through a deal with TCs and Turkey.

There can be no deals that (permanently) restrict the rights and freedoms that free Cypriots (and all other EU citizens) currently enjoy. And no one else in the EU, whether in Athens, London or Brussels, (or even politicians in Nicosia), is in a position to make such a deal.

I'm not sure about that. Look for example at Aland islands. A deal was made that restricts the rights that EU-citizens enjoy everywhere else in EU (i.e. acquiring and holding real property), and it seems that it works.

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the Aland islands. Are the rights of Aland Islanders restricted? On their own island? I very much doubt it.