Cyprus-Forum.com

[YFred]

Bananiot

While I do believe that you (and Christofias, who thinks like you) want the best for Cyprus, it is TRAGIC that through your actions and positions are driving Cyprus straight to PARTITION.

People like you FAIL to aknowledge, respect and ACT on the will of the vast majority of the GC people. This was expressed LOUD & CLEAR in 2004, yet your life's mission is to bring back and impose on GCs an Annan-plan lookalike.

Christofias STOLE the vote of GCs by LYING about his true intentions to bring back the AP. NOWHERE did he mention to voters all the fundamental concessions he made IMMEDIATELY upon taking power (not to mention all the other LIES about reducing military service to lure in voters).

He had DISY leadership with him all along and subsequently even managed to control the likes of DIKO leadership by offering Garoyian 2 terms as parliament leader (rumour has it Garoyian has also been told that, being neither GC nor TC, he would be the ideal first president of the United ROC..)

He is under the illusion that GC voters will follow what party leadership will say. He ignores 2004 and that ALL the polls show that the VAST majority of GCs TODAY REJECT the solution he is preparing.

Ignoring the will of the people has a PRICE. That price is PARTITION - because that is what will happen when he takes an agreed (in his mind) solution to referendum and this gets rejected. And he and people like you will be FULLY responsible for this.

If you are betting that a last-minute blackmail will work (ie. "oops, it's too late now and if you vote No we're screwed, so vote Yes") - then think again. The blame will NOT be with the people but with Christofias, Anastasiades & Co, because they are currently REFUSING to LISTEN to the GC public.

His effort right now should be on carrying out polls, running focus groups to UNDERSTAND what GCs would need in order to say Yes, without changing the BBF basis. He is doing the exact opposite i.e. shaping a solution HE is happy with i.e. the AP and has the ARROGANCE to believe he will just pass it through a referendum. e.g. 80% GCs say rotating presidency is unacceptable but he pisses on this..

I do hope that your kind starts to see the light before it's too late..

It seem Cyprus's fate was sealed in 2004 then. Does anybody in the world really believe that we can have an alternative plan totally different to the Annan plan.
If GCs object to rotating Presidency, the only other alternative is the VP veto which was in the 60 constitution. I guess they do not like that too.
God help us all.

[-mikkie2-]

"His effort right now should be on carrying out polls, running focus groups to UNDERSTAND what GCs would need in order to say Yes, without changing the BBF basis."

All well and good but don't you think we also need to find out what the TC's need in order to say yes this time too?

You can't just look at the GC's and what they want in isolation. There are two parties to this process and what is needed is for both parties to say yes next time. There is an unjustified fear about the 'concessions' being given to the TC's. We are in the EU now and we can't make concessions on fundamental EU laws in order to expediate a solution. Whatever solution is agreed and accepted will come under immediate scrutiny. Any provisions which don't 'fit' will be challengable so ultimately, the TC's won't get 100% what they want. Similarly we won't get 100% of what we want.

[DT.]

What are you after DT? A diatribe?

The fact that you explain people's objections to rotating presidency, turkish guarantees and turkish settlers as a result of not being able to see that TC's are generally polite and kind people is a simplistic and dense way of putting it.

[Tony-4497]

It seem Cyprus's fate was sealed in 2004 then. Does anybody in the world really believe that we can have an alternative plan totally different to the Annan plan.
If GCs object to rotating Presidency, the only other alternative is the VP veto which was in the 60 constitution. I guess they do not like that too.
God help us all.

It will still be a BBF with political equality, so it cannot be completely different to the AP. However, Christofias is heading for something which is near-identical.

For example, a BBF does NOT require Turkish rotational presidency and it does NOT require any violations of fundamental human rights (in fact BBF was accepted ON CONDITION that human rights would be fully implemented) and does NOT require that 18% of population will have 30% of land and 60% of coastline.

[Bananiot]

Your way off topic, Tony, but nevertheless I will try to address your concerns. For a start, I am not a politician and my actions (thoughts really) bear insignificant value on the future of this island. You have been using Christofias to show how dirty politics are (especially in Cyprus) in almost all your posts. Let me remind you of some more dirty deals. Papadopoulos commanded a mere 1.5% of the popular vote yet, with the votes of AKEL, he won the presidency hands down. Prior to the 2003 presidential elections, the whole of Cyprus was decked out with huge posters of the late Papadopoulos that said: I promise to work hard for solution, based on the Annan Plan. Would you say that he was trying to steel the votes of AKEL whose supporters were very sore at the prospect of voting for a confirmed anti communist and anti Turk (the words of former GS of AKEL Papaioannou). This is politics in the banana republic Tony, things like that should not surprise you.

Partition of Cyprus is a serious concern for everybody that cares about this island. We are not far from it, I am afraid. Basically we have partition since 1974 and our struggle is to avoid turning de facto partition into de jure partition. To achieve this goal we need solution. Yesterday, if it were possible. Tomorrow will be too late.

Today we have a window of opportunity open, as Turkey strives to enter the exclusive club known as EU. Turkey seems to be winning the domestic struggle to pursue its European path which will transform this country for the better, for the benefit of the Turkish people and the people in the area in general and Cypriots most of all. Our opportunity for solution runs parallel with Turkey's efforts to become a full member of the EU. We desperately need Turkey in the EU (the nationalists dread this, by the way) for in order to achieve this she must make some basic concessions to Cyprus. Our EU partners (those Omirou calls hypocrites) are fully behind us on this. However, we all know, or should know, that we must not push Turkey beyond a certain limit where she will decide "sod the EU" we can live outside the EU. If it came to this, then partition of Cyprus will become a fact, for the eons to come, with a danger of even bigger disasters in the future.

Having understood this, we need to evaluate calmly the situation. Solution must be mutually agreed and the Annan Plan is the only plan that is real. I do understand that certain areas need to be redefined and made more palatable to our side. With proper diplomatic moves we can go for these, with the full backing of the EU and the UN. This is the way to achieve things, not the way our vulgar politicians behave, to the detriment of Cyprus. However, I must say here that I do not believe that Omirou, Perdikis, Lyssarides, Sillouris et al, really care about the only realistic solution of BBF. I believe that they constantly moan and groan because they want the talks which aim at reaching solution based on this model, to fail.

In fact, the danger of partition, hovers above because of these people, who by the way, are disciples of the late Michalis Dountas who proposed that we should stay as we are and wait for the balance of power to change, before we seek solution.

[Tony-4497]

"His effort right now should be on carrying out polls, running focus groups to UNDERSTAND what GCs would need in order to say Yes, without changing the BBF basis."

All well and good but don't you think we also need to find out what the TC's need in order to say yes this time too?

You can't just look at the GC's and what they want in isolation. There are two parties to this process and what is needed is for both parties to say yes next time. There is an unjustified fear about the 'concessions' being given to the TC's. We are in the EU now and we can't make concessions on fundamental EU laws in order to expediate a solution. Whatever solution is agreed and accepted will come under immediate scrutiny. Any provisions which don't 'fit' will be challengable so ultimately, the TC's won't get 100% what they want. Similarly we won't get 100% of what we want.

The GC representative's job is bring to the table a plan that is acceptable to GCs, within the BBF context (our major concession), IF possible. If the TC refuse to agree to a BBF that is acceptable by GCs, then his duty is NOT to allow such a plan to be put to referendum with his blessing, because this would be rejected, which per Anastasiades would amount to SUICIDE.

If you are under the illusion that EU will protect your human rigths AFTER we accept their violation in an agreed plan, then wake up.

From the leaked documents, it was clear that they (incl OUR side) are looking into ways of STOPPING people from challenging "aspects" of the plan at European courts (as was the case with the AP). They already KNOW their plan will be violating the EU acquis.

[Get Real!]

Partition of Cyprus is a serious concern for everybody that cares about this island. We are not far from it, I am afraid. Basically we have partition since 1974 and our struggle is to avoid turning de facto partition into de jure partition.

Turkey doesn’t have such an option so stop misleading the public with unfounded rubbish…

http://thecyprusproblem.100webspace.net ... icle31.htm

[Get Real!]

All well and good but don't you think we also need to find out what the TC's need in order to say yes this time too?

A good bloody hiding up the rear end sounds about right…

[YFred]

All well and good but don't you think we also need to find out what the TC's need in order to say yes this time too?

A good bloody hiding up the rear end sounds about right…

Do we have to pay for it or is it free? Do you offer this service to others and how much do you charge?

[-mikkie2-]

The GC representative's job is bring to the table a plan that is acceptable to GCs, within the BBF context (our major concession), IF possible. If the TC refuse to agree to a BBF that is acceptable by GCs, then his duty is NOT to allow such a plan to be put to referendum with his blessing, because this would be rejected, which per Anastasiades would amount to SUICIDE.

If you are under the illusion that EU will protect your human rigths AFTER we accept their violation in an agreed plan, then wake up.

From the leaked documents, it was clear that they (incl OUR side) are looking into ways of STOPPING people from challenging "aspects" of the plan at European courts (as was the case with the AP). They already KNOW their plan will be violating the EU acquis.

You are plain WRONG.

There is NO way that the acquis can be violated. It is a fundamental aspect of the EU and its foundations. You obviously have no understanding how the EU works.

If you didn't know already, the Charter of Fundamental Rights was passed onto law by the signing of the Lisbon Treaty. This enhances our case.

The Annan plan although it seemed to sign away our rights, was also very questionable and I bet that if the Annan plan was passed, provisions that were against founding EU principles would have been immediately challenged en masse in the EU courts and ECJ.

Britain has opt outs from certain EU legislation such as the Social Chapter, but guess what, many of these 'opt outs' have been bypassed and in some cases challeneged with the effect that legistlation in the UK had to be ammended.

The only thing that a future agreement would allow is to phase in the application of the EU acquis over the whole island - time limited derogations basically.