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Destiny's children

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Floda » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:00 am

[quote="YFred"]I can tell you what Oracle will say, Mehmet and Ayse will grow up to be thieves and live in the occupied lands for eternity, whilst Spiragui and andrulla will grow up to be proper humans with conscience. /quote]

Actually "YFred", your prediction MAY contain more truth in it than you imagine regardless of the fact that it's possible intent was to offer slight to Oracle.

It is generally accepted (in fact becoming increasingly evident) among affected societies, that PARENTS are positively responsible for the behaviour of their offspring and SHOULD therefore be held accountable for their actions.

Since the Turks ARE a thieving load of bastards and the Greeks, a people of the highest integrity, it is perfectly feasible to expect that ultimately, the 'Twins' WILL emulate their parents.

Sadly, Mehmet and Ayse may find that their 'Destiny's' will be less fruitful than those of Spiros and Androulla, may the Good Lord protect them. :wink:
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Postby YFred » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:41 am

Floda wrote:
YFred wrote:I can tell you what Oracle will say, Mehmet and Ayse will grow up to be thieves and live in the occupied lands for eternity, whilst Spiragui and andrulla will grow up to be proper humans with conscience. /quote]

Actually "YFred", your prediction MAY contain more truth in it than you imagine regardless of the fact that it's possible intent was to offer slight to Oracle.

It is generally accepted (in fact becoming increasingly evident) among affected societies, that PARENTS are positively responsible for the behaviour of their offspring and SHOULD therefore be held accountable for their actions.

Since the Turks ARE a thieving load of bastards and the Greeks, a people of the highest integrity, it is perfectly feasible to expect that ultimately, the 'Twins' WILL emulate their parents.

Sadly, Mehmet and Ayse may find that their 'Destiny's' will be less fruitful than those of Spiros and Androulla, may the Good Lord protect them. :wink:

You carry on trusting to your good lord, especially when the bullets start flying, we'll just have to rely on our inferior mehmetcik for our protection.
Do not worry about our children, they now what is right and what is wrong, and they also know how your kind tried to annihilate us and are ready for that eventuality too.
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Postby Paphitis » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:35 pm

Talisker wrote:
insan wrote:
Talisker wrote:
insan wrote:It is obvious that, lately; somethings urge Talisker to attack TRNC and dignify so-called RoC... is it maybe the Turkish-Kurdish arguements in general chat section? Or u have been badly hurt by any actions of Turkish government? Or u r trying to provoke TCs? Or u have some interests in South or Greece?

The scenario stems from some of the information presented and discussed within the Human rights thread (http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27433) which, as I explained to Copperline, itself was a result of my curiosity and investigation on the matter, having never been to the northern occupied part myself, but being very familiar with the south. I'm surprised you see this thread as an 'attack' on the TRNC - surely it is an opportunity for TCs to promote their culture and future opportunities in the same way as it is for GCs? After all, for all the political arguments and bickering about historical events, we all want the best for our children, and this theoretical scenario allows us the chance to compare and contrast the possible future lives of 'typical' children in both communities.


If it was what u wished to emphisize u didn't need to define one side as "free and democratic" and the other side as "occupied North"... u clearly give us an impression that u intentionally choose some words to express ur opinions.

There isn't much difference between two sides regarding democracy and human rights. In TRNC, most of the problems arise from economic insufficiencies which is something mainly related with economic embargoes. Thew embargoes badly affect all aspects of life in TRNC. Hope next time u define both sides more rationally by taking into account the circumstances too...

Though if u r a GC or a foreigner who has sympathy to GC cause that's another issue and feel free to define the sides how u wish...

I just find it interesting to consider the future for Spiros and Androulla, Mehmet and Ayse. Do you think Mehmet and Ayse will still be living in Cyprus in 30 years time? If you look at population demographics in the TRNC then looks to me that many within the population choose to leave once they reach adulthood (First table, link below). Or is there another explanation for the increasing decline in numbers from a peak in the 20-24 year age group?
http://www.nufussayimi.devplan.org/Census%202006-3.pdf

Or do the high Turkish settler figures distort the overall trend? These results come from the following site - are the figures genuine?
The Final Results of TRNC General Population and Housing Unit Census
http://www.nufussayimi.devplan.org/index-en.html

If the current demographic trend continues in the north, with presumably the best, most able and ambitious young people leaving, then this must have major implications for the future within the TC community.

What about Spiros and Androulla - are they likely to be leaving Cyprus by the time they are 30?


Spyros and Androulla will be forced to leave, as they won't have any opportunities for a decent education and job where they live. They will depart for greener pastures.

Mehmet and Ayse will probably leave as well. I don't expect any sane young person would waste their life in the occupied territories, with a regime condemned internationally and under embargo.

Turkey will just keep sending settlers until the TCs become an insignificant minority and without a voice.

Pretty dismal picture I'm sad to say.
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Postby YFred » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:40 pm

Paphitis wrote:
Talisker wrote:
insan wrote:
Talisker wrote:
insan wrote:It is obvious that, lately; somethings urge Talisker to attack TRNC and dignify so-called RoC... is it maybe the Turkish-Kurdish arguements in general chat section? Or u have been badly hurt by any actions of Turkish government? Or u r trying to provoke TCs? Or u have some interests in South or Greece?

The scenario stems from some of the information presented and discussed within the Human rights thread (http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27433) which, as I explained to Copperline, itself was a result of my curiosity and investigation on the matter, having never been to the northern occupied part myself, but being very familiar with the south. I'm surprised you see this thread as an 'attack' on the TRNC - surely it is an opportunity for TCs to promote their culture and future opportunities in the same way as it is for GCs? After all, for all the political arguments and bickering about historical events, we all want the best for our children, and this theoretical scenario allows us the chance to compare and contrast the possible future lives of 'typical' children in both communities.


If it was what u wished to emphisize u didn't need to define one side as "free and democratic" and the other side as "occupied North"... u clearly give us an impression that u intentionally choose some words to express ur opinions.

There isn't much difference between two sides regarding democracy and human rights. In TRNC, most of the problems arise from economic insufficiencies which is something mainly related with economic embargoes. Thew embargoes badly affect all aspects of life in TRNC. Hope next time u define both sides more rationally by taking into account the circumstances too...

Though if u r a GC or a foreigner who has sympathy to GC cause that's another issue and feel free to define the sides how u wish...

I just find it interesting to consider the future for Spiros and Androulla, Mehmet and Ayse. Do you think Mehmet and Ayse will still be living in Cyprus in 30 years time? If you look at population demographics in the TRNC then looks to me that many within the population choose to leave once they reach adulthood (First table, link below). Or is there another explanation for the increasing decline in numbers from a peak in the 20-24 year age group?
http://www.nufussayimi.devplan.org/Census%202006-3.pdf

Or do the high Turkish settler figures distort the overall trend? These results come from the following site - are the figures genuine?
The Final Results of TRNC General Population and Housing Unit Census
http://www.nufussayimi.devplan.org/index-en.html

If the current demographic trend continues in the north, with presumably the best, most able and ambitious young people leaving, then this must have major implications for the future within the TC community.

What about Spiros and Androulla - are they likely to be leaving Cyprus by the time they are 30?


Spyros and Androulla will be forced to leave, as they won't have any opportunities for a decent education and job where they live. They will depart for greener pastures.

Mehmet and Ayse will probably leave as well. I don't expect any sane young person would waste their life in the occupied territories, with a regime condemned internationally and under embargo.

Turkey will just keep sending settlers until the TCs become an insignificant minority and without a voice.

Pretty dismal picture I'm sad to say.

That is a very big assumption to make for such a little man. Will it not change for the next 20 years? I think not!
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Postby Paphitis » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:08 pm

YFred wrote:
Paphitis wrote:
Talisker wrote:
insan wrote:
Talisker wrote:
insan wrote:It is obvious that, lately; somethings urge Talisker to attack TRNC and dignify so-called RoC... is it maybe the Turkish-Kurdish arguements in general chat section? Or u have been badly hurt by any actions of Turkish government? Or u r trying to provoke TCs? Or u have some interests in South or Greece?

The scenario stems from some of the information presented and discussed within the Human rights thread (http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=27433) which, as I explained to Copperline, itself was a result of my curiosity and investigation on the matter, having never been to the northern occupied part myself, but being very familiar with the south. I'm surprised you see this thread as an 'attack' on the TRNC - surely it is an opportunity for TCs to promote their culture and future opportunities in the same way as it is for GCs? After all, for all the political arguments and bickering about historical events, we all want the best for our children, and this theoretical scenario allows us the chance to compare and contrast the possible future lives of 'typical' children in both communities.


If it was what u wished to emphisize u didn't need to define one side as "free and democratic" and the other side as "occupied North"... u clearly give us an impression that u intentionally choose some words to express ur opinions.

There isn't much difference between two sides regarding democracy and human rights. In TRNC, most of the problems arise from economic insufficiencies which is something mainly related with economic embargoes. Thew embargoes badly affect all aspects of life in TRNC. Hope next time u define both sides more rationally by taking into account the circumstances too...

Though if u r a GC or a foreigner who has sympathy to GC cause that's another issue and feel free to define the sides how u wish...

I just find it interesting to consider the future for Spiros and Androulla, Mehmet and Ayse. Do you think Mehmet and Ayse will still be living in Cyprus in 30 years time? If you look at population demographics in the TRNC then looks to me that many within the population choose to leave once they reach adulthood (First table, link below). Or is there another explanation for the increasing decline in numbers from a peak in the 20-24 year age group?
http://www.nufussayimi.devplan.org/Census%202006-3.pdf

Or do the high Turkish settler figures distort the overall trend? These results come from the following site - are the figures genuine?
The Final Results of TRNC General Population and Housing Unit Census
http://www.nufussayimi.devplan.org/index-en.html

If the current demographic trend continues in the north, with presumably the best, most able and ambitious young people leaving, then this must have major implications for the future within the TC community.

What about Spiros and Androulla - are they likely to be leaving Cyprus by the time they are 30?


Spyros and Androulla will be forced to leave, as they won't have any opportunities for a decent education and job where they live. They will depart for greener pastures.

Mehmet and Ayse will probably leave as well. I don't expect any sane young person would waste their life in the occupied territories, with a regime condemned internationally and under embargo.

Turkey will just keep sending settlers until the TCs become an insignificant minority and without a voice.

Pretty dismal picture I'm sad to say.

That is a very big assumption to make for such a little man. Will it not change for the next 20 years? I think not!


You better hope it changes for your own sake. But judging by Turkey's lack of goodwill and unwillingness to compromise, then I don't see a change in the status quo for quite some time.

At least not until Turkey has closed most of the EU Acquis Communautaire Chapters.
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Postby Floda » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:56 pm

YFred wrote:
Floda wrote:
YFred wrote:I can tell you what Oracle will say, Mehmet and Ayse will grow up to be thieves and live in the occupied lands for eternity, whilst Spiragui and andrulla will grow up to be proper humans with conscience. /quote]

Actually "YFred", your prediction MAY contain more truth in it than you imagine regardless of the fact that it's possible intent was to offer slight to Oracle.

It is generally accepted (in fact becoming increasingly evident) among affected societies, that PARENTS are positively responsible for the behaviour of their offspring and SHOULD therefore be held accountable for their actions.

Since the Turks ARE a thieving load of bastards and the Greeks, a people of the highest integrity, it is perfectly feasible to expect that ultimately, the 'Twins' WILL emulate their parents.

Sadly, Mehmet and Ayse may find that their 'Destiny's' will be less fruitful than those of Spiros and Androulla, may the Good Lord protect them. :wink:

You carry on trusting to your good lord, especially when the bullets start flying, we'll just have to rely on our inferior mehmetcik for our protection.
Do not worry about our children, they now what is right and what is wrong, and they also know how your kind tried to annihilate us and are ready for that eventuality too.


On the 'PLUS' side, with all the Turks taking up residence in the stolen lands situated in the North of the island (and providing young Mehmet is able to stand the smell) he will be O.K. for a regular 'Shirt lifting session' when he grows up. :lol: :lol: :wink:
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Postby YFred » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:26 pm

Floda wrote:
YFred wrote:
Floda wrote:
YFred wrote:I can tell you what Oracle will say, Mehmet and Ayse will grow up to be thieves and live in the occupied lands for eternity, whilst Spiragui and andrulla will grow up to be proper humans with conscience. /quote]

Actually "YFred", your prediction MAY contain more truth in it than you imagine regardless of the fact that it's possible intent was to offer slight to Oracle.

It is generally accepted (in fact becoming increasingly evident) among affected societies, that PARENTS are positively responsible for the behaviour of their offspring and SHOULD therefore be held accountable for their actions.

Since the Turks ARE a thieving load of bastards and the Greeks, a people of the highest integrity, it is perfectly feasible to expect that ultimately, the 'Twins' WILL emulate their parents.

Sadly, Mehmet and Ayse may find that their 'Destiny's' will be less fruitful than those of Spiros and Androulla, may the Good Lord protect them. :wink:

You carry on trusting to your good lord, especially when the bullets start flying, we'll just have to rely on our inferior mehmetcik for our protection.
Do not worry about our children, they now what is right and what is wrong, and they also know how your kind tried to annihilate us and are ready for that eventuality too.


On the 'PLUS' side, with all the Turks taking up residence in the stolen lands situated in the North of the island (and providing young Mehmet is able to stand the smell) he will be O.K. for a regular 'Shirt lifting session' when he grows up. :lol: :lol: :wink:

Judging by the statistic that 10% of the population is gay, If I was you, I would be more worried about the shirt lifting activities young Spirtui and Andrullui as there is going to be a hell of a lot of that sort of activity going on in the south. Judging by the fact that they are greeks I would guesstimate that to be double the normal rate, that's 20% . Fancy that?
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Postby Floda » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:50 pm

YFred wrote:
Floda wrote:
YFred wrote:
Floda wrote:
YFred wrote:I can tell you what Oracle will say, Mehmet and Ayse will grow up to be thieves and live in the occupied lands for eternity, whilst Spiragui and andrulla will grow up to be proper humans with conscience. /quote]

Actually "YFred", your prediction MAY contain more truth in it than you imagine regardless of the fact that it's possible intent was to offer slight to Oracle.

It is generally accepted (in fact becoming increasingly evident) among affected societies, that PARENTS are positively responsible for the behaviour of their offspring and SHOULD therefore be held accountable for their actions.

Since the Turks ARE a thieving load of bastards and the Greeks, a people of the highest integrity, it is perfectly feasible to expect that ultimately, the 'Twins' WILL emulate their parents.

Sadly, Mehmet and Ayse may find that their 'Destiny's' will be less fruitful than those of Spiros and Androulla, may the Good Lord protect them. :wink:

You carry on trusting to your good lord, especially when the bullets start flying, we'll just have to rely on our inferior mehmetcik for our protection.
Do not worry about our children, they now what is right and what is wrong, and they also know how your kind tried to annihilate us and are ready for that eventuality too.


On the 'PLUS' side, with all the Turks taking up residence in the stolen lands situated in the North of the island (and providing young Mehmet is able to stand the smell) he will be O.K. for a regular 'Shirt lifting session' when he grows up. :lol: :lol: :wink:

Judging by the statistic that 10% of the population is gay, If I was you, I would be more worried about the shirt lifting activities young Spirtui and Andrullui as there is going to be a hell of a lot of that sort of activity going on in the south. Judging by the fact that they are greeks I would guesstimate that to be double the normal rate, that's 20% . Fancy that?


Now now, don't start quoting statistics in order to cover your tracks mate, you've been rumbled and you may just as well 'Front Up' about it. :lol: :lol: :wink:
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Postby YFred » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:00 pm

Floda wrote:
YFred wrote:
Floda wrote:
YFred wrote:
Floda wrote:
YFred wrote:I can tell you what Oracle will say, Mehmet and Ayse will grow up to be thieves and live in the occupied lands for eternity, whilst Spiragui and andrulla will grow up to be proper humans with conscience. /quote]

Actually "YFred", your prediction MAY contain more truth in it than you imagine regardless of the fact that it's possible intent was to offer slight to Oracle.

It is generally accepted (in fact becoming increasingly evident) among affected societies, that PARENTS are positively responsible for the behaviour of their offspring and SHOULD therefore be held accountable for their actions.

Since the Turks ARE a thieving load of bastards and the Greeks, a people of the highest integrity, it is perfectly feasible to expect that ultimately, the 'Twins' WILL emulate their parents.

Sadly, Mehmet and Ayse may find that their 'Destiny's' will be less fruitful than those of Spiros and Androulla, may the Good Lord protect them. :wink:

You carry on trusting to your good lord, especially when the bullets start flying, we'll just have to rely on our inferior mehmetcik for our protection.
Do not worry about our children, they now what is right and what is wrong, and they also know how your kind tried to annihilate us and are ready for that eventuality too.


On the 'PLUS' side, with all the Turks taking up residence in the stolen lands situated in the North of the island (and providing young Mehmet is able to stand the smell) he will be O.K. for a regular 'Shirt lifting session' when he grows up. :lol: :lol: :wink:

Judging by the statistic that 10% of the population is gay, If I was you, I would be more worried about the shirt lifting activities young Spirtui and Andrullui as there is going to be a hell of a lot of that sort of activity going on in the south. Judging by the fact that they are greeks I would guesstimate that to be double the normal rate, that's 20% . Fancy that?


Now now, don't start quoting statistics in order to cover your tracks mate, you've been rumbled and you may just as well 'Front Up' about it. :lol: :lol: :wink:

You don't believe me, ask Oracle, she knows all about statistics.
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Postby Talisker » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:47 pm

I've been considering the future lives of our two families, the Osmans in the north and the Savvas in the south. Clearly money comes into the equation, along with a multitude of other factors - education, job prospects, health and wellbeing, and, of course, security. However, leaving these latter factors aside for the moment, I found some interesting data available within a publication, 'Economic Growth under Embargoes in North Cyprus: An Input-Output Analysis', I found on the web. I'm not certain of the year this was published, but it is sometime after 2007. The authors are Turkish - Öner GÜNÇAVDI and Suat KÜÇÜKÇIFÇI from the Economic and Social Research Centre (ESRC), Istanbul Technical University, Faculty of Management. The full paper can be accessed from:
http://www.esam.itu.edu.tr/esamRapor200903.pdf

Included in the Introduction is the following information (I've italicised so that it is clear which is the authors' writing and not my own, and also so that YFred can't read it :lol: - for those of you who don't know he admitted yesterday to not being able to read italicised writing!).

The economic performance of the Turkish Cypriot economy has been far from impressive in recent years. Whereas the economy grew, on average, only 7% in the period 1985-1989, the same figure dropped to 2.9 % for the period 1990-1998, and then increased slightly and reached 3.9 % in the period 1999-2003 (see Table 1). The Greek side, on the other hand, performed remarkably well in growth in per capita income from 1988 to 2002, averaging 3 % annually (see Eichengreen et al., 2004, p. 35). Under favourable conditions (namely the presence of a sound policy stance, a substantial increase in physical capital and full membership of the EU etc.) this impressive performance of the economy of the Greek side is expected to continue in the next decade. The present disparity between two sides of the island becomes even more evident when we look at the difference in per capita income. In 2003, Turkish Cypriots achieved only $5,949 per capita income, whereas the Greek side reached to $17,644 per capita in the same year (SPO, 2003). Eichengreen et al., (2004) estimate that per capita income of North Cyprus must grow steadily at around 5% in the next decade in order to catch up to the Greek side. Ayres (2003) is on the other hand presents growth rate estimates which would be sufficient to close the present income gap between two sides of the island. Accordingly, he predicts that within an acceptable period of time, say 15-20 years, the per capita income of the Turkish Cypriot economy has to rise to over 7 per cent per annum. He respectively postulates that the resolution of the political dispute would be beneficial mostly for the Turkish side and with an appropriate macroeconomic policy and, most importantly, the removal of all economic and political embargoes, the Turkish Cypriot economy would be able to generate sufficiently high growth rates in order to eradicate the income disparity between the two sides of the island.

This is clearly an unsustainable income disparity that could afflict a possible long-standing federal settlement of the political dispute between two sides of the island. The elimination of these disparities should therefore be considered as the pre-condition for political stability and a possible future federal settlement in the island.

Now I am not an economist, and this is only an article I found published on the web (I have no idea if it has been subjected to peer review), and by two authors who may have biases and vested interests - in other words I'm not sure if the information provided is accurate. However, it is a basis for discussion in relation to the futures of our two families and their newborn children, Mehmet and Ayse, and Spiros and Androulla.

The fact is - even though these two familes may live only a couple of miles apart, with similar jobs for the parents, the likelihood is that the Savvas family will be more able to provide opportunities and material goods for their chidren than the Osmans. Admittedly the cost of living will be higher for the Savvas family, but I'd bet that overall they will be much better off than the Osmans (and this is not taking into account the other benefits of living in a vibrant economy, and remember the two mothers are both estate agents).

The authors make an interesting point that the reported disparity in per capita incomes between the two communities is an issue regarding any future settlement to the Cyprus problem. I wonder how that might affect our families?

There are other issues within this paper that will impact upon the Osmans and could be considered - the massive levels of spending on (illegally) imported goods compared with export (Figure1), leading inevitably to a huge trade deficit with enormous levels of debt, and the relatively low proportion of TCs within higher education (dominated by Turks rather than TCs, Figure 4).

Overall, Mr and Mrs Osman would find this paper to be gloomy reading when considering the future prospects for their own prosperity and opportunities for their children. It must be galling for them to know that the Savvas family, almost within shouting distance, face a much brighter future..........
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