Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

R there any contradicting parts of this report with other reports prepared and presented by international organizations and local NGOs? In my opinion there aren't. So it well informs the public abt human rights violations(fact or alleged) in those countries.

Hey barf-brains...

The US has the world’s WORST Human Rights record so they are in NO position to point their finger at anyone else, and not to mention that they are NOT an international authority on Human Rights!

In fact, they have such an appalling record that they’ve only JUST (this month) decided to attend for the first time in a long time…

U.S. to attend conference held by war crimes court

“For the first time in nearly eight years, the United States will participate in a conference with members of the International Criminal Court, a decision that signals growing U.S. support for a war crimes tribunal the Bush administration once shunned.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03662.html

Hey gologo-brain,

Everything in that Human Rights report have been reported by human rgihts organizations and local NGOs. It has nothing to do with US being an international authority on human rights. What relevant US department does, compiling various reports published by international human rights organizations and local NGOs in one comprehensive report.

[Paphitis]

I forgot to mention that the US can only be deemed rather very mediocre (middle range) violator of Human Rights. It is neither a gross violator, nor is it top of the class....

Shhhhhhh…. Just s l e e p!

Engage your brain and just Thinkkkk! Think with clarity and objectivity.

And go and visit the US. Great country. You will fall in love with it!

And secondly, I did mention US HR violations...

This is what I said in an earlier post:

I say this because they rightfully condemn Saudi Arabia for Sharia Law public beheadings, Iran for pubic lynchings, the US for Camp X Ray, and so on and so on.

But stating that the US is the biggest violator of HR is both irrational and illogical GR! Get a grip of yourself......

Otherwise, it is YOU who needs to go to sleep you small minded fucked in the head twit!

[Talisker]

It is something of an irony that there we have a thread about human rights in northern Cyprus in which many posters decry (rightly in my view) the human rights violations which occur daily, whilst on the other hand there is also a thread alleging that northern Cyprus is really that isolated after all. The kinds of instances of human rights violations is directly related to the isolation of northern Cyprus.

A few examples can be given. The violation of the right to enjoy one's property - at the heart of GC property claims before ECHR & ECJ - is a direct function of the isolating of the north. If the north were not isolated then complainants could readily resolve their claims locally.
The violation of human rights of sex workers in the brothels and clubs of north, by men of all nationalities including GCs, continues on such a scale precisely because the TRNC is isolated and not subject to separate investigations of its sex and trafficking industry by human rights organisations.
The violation of workers' rights, say in the construction industry, in terms of the rights to organise and associate and to safe and healthy conditions continues apace because, in large part, international trade union organisations and ILO-type organisations are prevented from acting in the TRNC because of the embargo.
The violation of rights of freedom of expression (eg criticising the idiocies of Ataturk worship) continue in popular culture as well as in the media and education because the isolation forces an ever closer integration with Turkey.

I wish TCs would assert their independence from Turkey with greater conviction than they do, but I understand what constrains them from doing so. I wish northern Cyprus's human rights record was far better than it has been, but the isolation of northern Cyprus has been a powerful contributor to the violation of TC human rights and to the ineffective monitoring of violations and the inability to prosecute human rights violations within TRNC or through international courts.

Those who are genuinely concerned about human rights violations in the north might stop a minute just to reflect on what the effect of isolation has had on increasing the violations or bolstering the feeling of impunity amongst human rights abusers.

Copperline, this is a really interesting and reflective post. I've regularly visited Cyprus for over 20 years, but never been to the occupied north and am therefore curious to know more about it. In fact, it seems quite difficult to find information about human rights (or lack of) in the occupied area on the web, presumably because of 'isolation', and the fact the regime is not internationally accepted, and therefore not subjected to the usual scrutiny of human rights organisations. Indeed, the respective Amnesty International reports from 2009 on human rights for Cyprus (http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cyprus/report-2009) and Turkey (http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/turkey/report-2009) do not contain information relating to the regime and society in the north, and there is no separate report summarising the human rights situation there. If one reads these reports one would hope that the majority of TCs would prefer to live within a society aspiring to the relatively good record of the Cypriots rather than the repressive and discriminatory situation reported for Turkey.

Talisker,
Northern Cyprus is, to all intents and purposes, a legal black hole. That black hole is not an accident but has been created by two separate and apparently contradictory forces (and I'm not make a comment on whether these forces are right or wrong, just that they have had significant effect). First, there is the RoC and associated entities refusing to recognise TRNC, insisting on its illegality and therefore asserting its lack of legal standing in international law. Whilst de jure nominally successful - TRNC is not recognised - this movement has been unsuccessful in de facto. Secondly one has Turkey, essentially pushing the opposite line, but not succeeding de jure, but succeeding de facto.

The consequence of this contradiction is profound for TCs and for human rights in the north. (I should at this point say that I live in the north and see these consequences everyday). Take the example that you gave of Amnesty International. AI is an international NGO which needs access to all governments etc, including RoC and Turkey. Implicit in AI's work is the recognition of states, including these two. If AI were to recognise TRNC then RoC would deny access to AI. AI doesn't recognise TRNC, it doesn't conduct separate reports on TRNC (always relegated to a few lines on its Turkey report or RoC report). There has never been an AI field investigation in TRNC. Same is true of Human Rights Watch. Same is true of the ILO. Same is true of ..... you name it. You will not find a monitoring or survey report of northern Cyprus from any international non-governmental or non-governmental organisation. One of the consequences is that northern Cyprus is indeed *becoming* a home to all sorts of abuses and violations precisely because it is isolated and overlooked.

Typically there are those who say "well all you have to do is return the north to RoC and these abuses will disappear". Maybe so, maybe not. Either way it misses the point that forces which benefit from the black hole satus are also the forces who benefit from the isolation, and it is they who have effective political control. It is not however they who pay the price of human rights violations or of isolation, it is ordinary TCs and Turks (and others). The all to "just give it back" is a sad mixture of political naivite and carelessness about what is actually going on in the north.

Thanks Copperline, I wondered on the consequences of the different political pressures and 'isolation', and it is concerning to hear from you within the TRNC, that the 'legal black hole' is, in effect, propagating worsening human rights. Understand too that it is the ordinary man and woman on the street who suffers. And presume the escalating human rights abuse situation discourages dissention from those same men and women, who presumably would ultimately prefer to live within a safe, free society? How would you advocate halting this downward spiral for TC society if you consider 'giving it back' to be naive and careless?

[Talisker]

Lately I have been pondering a lot about 'Human Rights'. I happened to remember the arrest of the PKK leader Ocalan and the furore from Human Rights groups who complained of his detention without trial. This was the leader of an organisation 'allegedly' responsible for the brutal murder or Turkish citizens of both Turkish and Kurdish background. We all remember that the EU , Amnsty International all jumping up and down with their knickers in the air.

How quiet they are now. In Turkey there are hundreds of Turkish Army high ranking officers in jail for over a year without charge and some have been 'allegedly' undergone torture. What happened to Amnesty Int and Human Rights Activists. We know they have double standards but their silence is deafening. Perhaps Talisker has the answer.(in a different thread ofcourse

Let me be clear on this Deniz - you are condemning the human rights monitoring organisations and not the abusers? Your comparison is an odd one - even I knew about Ocalan before he was arrested - he was a high-profile individual, and therefore he was easy for Amnesty International and others to monitor, whereas the arrests of the military figures you mention is presumably an internal security matter which has received little publicity, certainly in comparison with the Ocalan arrest. Have they been arrested to prevent a military coup? Either way, you highlight very nicely the lack of human rights in Turkey, which, I'm sure, explains in large part the similar absence of such rights in the TRNC.

You make a very interesting point, but, human rights monitoring agencies seem to be politically motivcated and lacking integrity.

I say this because they rightfully condemn Saudi Arabia for Sharia Law public beheadings, Iran for pubic lynchings, the US for Camp X Ray, and so on and so on. But when you study these human rights monitoring groups, you will notice that some countries (which actually set HR benchmarks but are not perfect) have HR rap sheets for merely incarcerating illegal immigrants, who have claimed asylum and are awaiting an immigration inquiry which could grant them asylum or have them deported. What do they expect? What else do they expect?

And yet, Deniz also raises a very interesting point. The fact that some Turkish Officers are being held in prison without being charged, without a trial and are being tortured, is a very noteworthy HR violation, which these HR agencies don't seem to be interested in. Organizations such as Amnesty International are a farce. I apologize for my cynicism.

I disagree. These organisations may not be perfect but the world would be a poorer place without them.

I agree with the fact hat these HR agencies serve a very worthwhile purpose, and the world would indeed be a poorer place without them. This is because they actually do a lot of good in monitoring HR violations all over the world, and they raise public awareness as well as pressure those countries that violate HR to bring about change.

However, the fact that some HR violations go unnoticed, whilst other countries are being condemned (because these left wing groups want to sling mud against those countries for politically motivated reasons) when there is no case to answer, will only undermine them.

Thanks for providing the link in your edited post regarding arrests of Turkish military officers.

Why do you assume HR organisations must have 'left wing' leanings and motivations for their actions?

Whilst participating in the Cyprus Forum, I have spent many hours researching various factual HR violations by Turkey and it puppet regime, the "trnc". Whilst doing this, you also come to the realisation that there is no nation in the world that is completely immune from alleged HR violations. Some countries are extreme violators of HR, such as Iran, North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia and many more. Others commit very minor HR violations and are more or less those who set HR benchmarks. The EU, Australia, Canada, New Zealand are few examples of such countries.

However, in Australia, HR agencies have lost much credibility, because of their very vocal opposition to Australia's Pacific Solution. During this time, you would have thought that Australia was a tin pot, fascistic, Middle Eastern or West African nation. The Amnesty International rent a crowd was cutting barbed wire at Immigration Detention facilities, were generally behaving like first class clowns trying to bring down a system that was obviously working for Australia, and stopping illegal immigration dead in its tracks. These adverse HR reports were politically motivated against a Government that became the most popular administration in Australian political history. And yet, once again, Amnesty International is not quite as vocal about Australia sending 76 asylum seekers to Indonesia, a country which has a similarly deplorable HR record to Turkey.

Many here feel that these groups are far too inconsistent, and are very selective of picking their stance against various nations. Some of their reports are bordering the ridiculous.

Just because a government is popular doesn't mean it's policies and actions can't be questioned by an outside, independent organisation. My question would be does AI exist and operate for the greater good? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding 'Yes'.

And no doubt they criticise the UK, and probably with complete justification, but I'd rather use this to question actions of the UK government instead of taking umbrage at each highlighted issue.

[bill cobbett]

I forgot to mention that the US can only be deemed rather very mediocre (middle range) violator of Human Rights. It is neither a gross violator, nor is it top of the class....

Shhhhhhh…. Just s l e e p!

Engage your brain and just Thinkkkk! Think with clarity and objectivity.

And go and visit the US. Great country. You will fall in love with it!

Excelent OP. Great Posts. CF at its Best.

Can I just say to those who bring other States in to this that no country is perfect when it comes to this human rights business cos it always has been and always will be about the never-ending Struggle between the power of the state and the power of the individual citizen.

Those of us in the Enlightened West should not feel smug and complacent that we have reached some kind of perfect rights situation and that we should sit back cos the battle is won. Those of us who live in US, Oz or here in GB, and elsewhere in the 'free' West really should look at the situation in our own backyards and see there is a long way to go in this fight and also consider that the State will always try and roll things back. In recent years using the excuse of "terrorism" to limit rights such as a fair trial, detention without charge and in some cases being denied legal representation.

It's a Struggle and always will be. Join the fight our tissy comrades.

[Paphitis]

Lately I have been pondering a lot about 'Human Rights'. I happened to remember the arrest of the PKK leader Ocalan and the furore from Human Rights groups who complained of his detention without trial. This was the leader of an organisation 'allegedly' responsible for the brutal murder or Turkish citizens of both Turkish and Kurdish background. We all remember that the EU , Amnsty International all jumping up and down with their knickers in the air.

How quiet they are now. In Turkey there are hundreds of Turkish Army high ranking officers in jail for over a year without charge and some have been 'allegedly' undergone torture. What happened to Amnesty Int and Human Rights Activists. We know they have double standards but their silence is deafening. Perhaps Talisker has the answer.(in a different thread ofcourse

Let me be clear on this Deniz - you are condemning the human rights monitoring organisations and not the abusers? Your comparison is an odd one - even I knew about Ocalan before he was arrested - he was a high-profile individual, and therefore he was easy for Amnesty International and others to monitor, whereas the arrests of the military figures you mention is presumably an internal security matter which has received little publicity, certainly in comparison with the Ocalan arrest. Have they been arrested to prevent a military coup? Either way, you highlight very nicely the lack of human rights in Turkey, which, I'm sure, explains in large part the similar absence of such rights in the TRNC.

You make a very interesting point, but, human rights monitoring agencies seem to be politically motivcated and lacking integrity.

I say this because they rightfully condemn Saudi Arabia for Sharia Law public beheadings, Iran for pubic lynchings, the US for Camp X Ray, and so on and so on. But when you study these human rights monitoring groups, you will notice that some countries (which actually set HR benchmarks but are not perfect) have HR rap sheets for merely incarcerating illegal immigrants, who have claimed asylum and are awaiting an immigration inquiry which could grant them asylum or have them deported. What do they expect? What else do they expect?

And yet, Deniz also raises a very interesting point. The fact that some Turkish Officers are being held in prison without being charged, without a trial and are being tortured, is a very noteworthy HR violation, which these HR agencies don't seem to be interested in. Organizations such as Amnesty International are a farce. I apologize for my cynicism.

I disagree. These organisations may not be perfect but the world would be a poorer place without them.

I agree with the fact hat these HR agencies serve a very worthwhile purpose, and the world would indeed be a poorer place without them. This is because they actually do a lot of good in monitoring HR violations all over the world, and they raise public awareness as well as pressure those countries that violate HR to bring about change.

However, the fact that some HR violations go unnoticed, whilst other countries are being condemned (because these left wing groups want to sling mud against those countries for politically motivated reasons) when there is no case to answer, will only undermine them.

Thanks for providing the link in your edited post regarding arrests of Turkish military officers.

Why do you assume HR organisations must have 'left wing' leanings and motivations for their actions?

Whilst participating in the Cyprus Forum, I have spent many hours researching various factual HR violations by Turkey and it puppet regime, the "trnc". Whilst doing this, you also come to the realisation that there is no nation in the world that is completely immune from alleged HR violations. Some countries are extreme violators of HR, such as Iran, North Korea, China, Saudi Arabia and many more. Others commit very minor HR violations and are more or less those who set HR benchmarks. The EU, Australia, Canada, New Zealand are few examples of such countries.

However, in Australia, HR agencies have lost much credibility, because of their very vocal opposition to Australia's Pacific Solution. During this time, you would have thought that Australia was a tin pot, fascistic, Middle Eastern or West African nation. The Amnesty International rent a crowd was cutting barbed wire at Immigration Detention facilities, were generally behaving like first class clowns trying to bring down a system that was obviously working for Australia, and stopping illegal immigration dead in its tracks. These adverse HR reports were politically motivated against a Government that became the most popular administration in Australian political history. And yet, once again, Amnesty International is not quite as vocal about Australia sending 76 asylum seekers to Indonesia, a country which has a similarly deplorable HR record to Turkey.

Many here feel that these groups are far too inconsistent, and are very selective of picking their stance against various nations. Some of their reports are bordering the ridiculous.

Just because a government is popular doesn't mean it's policies and actions can't be questioned by an outside, independent organisation. My question would be does AI exist and operate for the greater good? In my opinion, the answer is a resounding 'Yes'.

And no doubt they criticise the UK, and probably with complete justification, but I'd rather use this to question actions of the UK government instead of taking umbrage at each highlighted issue.

They are free to question and challenge with objectivity, but their behavior in this country has been deplorable to say the least, and Australia will continue to perform its sovereign rights by securing its borders.

The amount of lives that have been saved seem to go unnoticed, as well as the country's very humane approach when handling these sensitive issues.

Quite clearly, the Australian public approves of Australia's security measures, which are humane, but never humane enough to allow illegal immigrants/asylum seekers/economic refugees/criminals free access to violate our borders and be awarded with permanent residency when we allow over 250,000 immigrants (many of whom are legitimate refugees) in per year.

AI can say what it likes, but we no longer take them too seriously.

[Kifeas]

CopperLine, your reasoning is very funny indeed. First you say that "TRNC" is only de Jure (nominally) non-recognized, but de facto (i.e. in practice) it isn't! Such a claim is nonsense (i.e. meaningless) to begin with, nevertheless even if we assume that this is the case, then where is the problem? Since in practice (i.e. de facto) it is recognized, and therefore (consequently) non-isolated; where does violation of human rights due to isolation fit? And why a regime must be recognized and non-isolated, in order to respect human rights? Shouldn't it be the opposite, i.e. a non-recognized regime to pay full and absolute respect to human rights, so as to gain the sympathy and eventual recognition of the international community?

Aside from the above (which show the defect in your reasoning in this case,) what do you expect RoC and the rest of the world to do? You expect the victims to allow, and the international community to assign recognition to an illegal and illegitimate regime; one that based and still bases its existence on an illegal invasion, occupation, indigenous population's ethnic cleansing and usurpation of all their belongings, so as not to be isolated and therefore cease to be a legal "black hole" and a further violator of human rights? Just because you and others had wrongly chosen to reside there? What nonsense indeed! You are asking the legalization of gross human rights violations, without the continuation of which the regime cannot exist in the first place, so as for this regime to stop violating more and other human rights, and allow access to AI? Is this your "legal" reasoning, or is it the reasoning of opportunism and expediency?

You truly sound like the fox asking the crow on a tree, with some meat in her mouth, to start singing so as to hear if her voice is as sweet and beautiful as is her appearance is…

[Talisker]

They are free to question and challenge with objectivity, but their behavior in this country has been deplorable to say the least, and Australia will continue to perform its sovereign rights by securing its borders.

The amount of lives that have been saved seem to go unnoticed, as well as the country's very humane approach when handling these sensitive issues.

Quite clearly, the Australian public approves of Australia's security measures, which are humane, but never humane enough to allow illegal immigrants/asylum seekers/economic refugees/criminals free access to violate our borders and be awarded with permanent residency when we allow over 250,000 immigrants (many of whom are legitimate refugees) in per year.

AI can say what it likes, but we know longer take them too seriously.

That's interesting - digressing, I know, but 250,000 immigrants/year? How many are rejected? And weren't you telling me a while back that life is pretty tough for many new immigrants - I think you mentioned a medically-quelified immigrant who was now driving a taxi, and thinking of returning 'home'. I know such stories are common, but is Australia getting the most out of it's immigrants, not treating them as second class citizens, and thereby restricting their human rights?

More importantly - did you see the rugby yesterday?

[YFred]

CopperLine, your reasoning is very funny indeed. First you say that "TRNC" is only de Jure (nominally) non-recognized, but de facto (i.e. in practice) it isn't! Such a claim is nonsense (i.e. meaningless) to begin with, nevertheless even if we assume that this is the case, then where is the problem? Since in practice (i.e. de facto) it is recognized, and therefore (consequently) non-isolated; where does violation of human rights due to isolation fit? And why a regime must be recognized and non-isolated, in order to respect human rights? Shouldn't it be the opposite, i.e. a non-recognized regime to pay full and absolute respect to human rights, so as to gain the sympathy and eventual recognition of the international community?

Aside from the above (which show the defect in your reasoning in this case,) what do you expect RoC and the rest of the world to do? You expect the victims to allow, and the international community to assign recognition to an illegal and illegitimate regime; one that based and still bases its existence on an illegal invasion, occupation, indigenous population's ethnic cleansing and usurpation of all their belongings, so as not to be isolated and therefore cease to be a legal "black hole" and a further violator of human rights? Just because you and others had wrongly chosen to reside there? What nonsense indeed! You are asking the legalization of gross human rights violations, without the continuation of which the regime cannot exist in the first place, so as for this regime to stop violating more and other human rights, and allow access to AI? Is this your "legal" reasoning, or is it the reasoning of opportunism and expediency?

You truly sound like the fox asking the crow on a tree, with some meat in her mouth, to start singing so as to hear if her voice is as sweet and beautiful as is her appearance is…

Kifeas, if your car needs a battery, and the battery is 20 miles away, would you do a push start and go get it, or would you wait until a battery materializes from nowhere so you can fit it and go buy one.
I suspect you have an automatic which means you are stuck.

[Paphitis]

I forgot to mention that the US can only be deemed rather very mediocre (middle range) violator of Human Rights. It is neither a gross violator, nor is it top of the class....

Shhhhhhh…. Just s l e e p!

Engage your brain and just Thinkkkk! Think with clarity and objectivity.

And go and visit the US. Great country. You will fall in love with it!

Excelent OP. Great Posts. CF at its Best.

Can I just say to those who bring other States in to this that no country is perfect when it comes to this human rights business cos it always has been and always will be about the never-ending Struggle between the power of the state and the power of the individual citizen.

Those of us in the Enlightened West should not feel smug and complacent that we have reached some kind of perfect rights situation and that we should sit back cos the battle is won. Those of us who live in US, Oz or here in GB, and elsewhere in the 'free' West really should look at the situation in our own backyards and see there is a long way to go in this fight and also consider that the State will always try and roll things back. In recent years using the excuse of "terrorism" to limit rights such as a fair trial, detention without charge and in some cases being denied legal representation.

It's a Struggle and always will be. Join the fight our tissy comrades.

I don't know the realities of daily life in the UK, but things don't seem to be all that bad there (weather aside). But it does seem that British politicians have done a remarkable job at destroying your 'way of life' and stuffing up what was previously a much better country.

Over here, we seem quite content with our politician's style and their reasonably good management, with a sincere push at improving our already good civil liberties. But after September 11 and Bali, we have become a rather accomplished 'surveillance state', with is in itself a potential for HR violations - but this has saved lives, by disabling terrorist cells which were in the advance stage of planning to bomb the Rialto Tower in Melbourne and attack Holsworthy Army barracks in Sydney.

So not all alleged HR violations as deemed by AI are all that bad! Some 'HR' violations save lives.

But what will these politicians know. Those tree hugging louts should stick to what they are good at - destroying Government property, attacking police (as if they don't have human rights) and throwing Molotov cocktails. How civil!