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The 25 Chapters of the GC side!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:35 pm

According to today’s “Phileleftheros” newspaper, these are the positions of the TC side, as they were conveyed to the GC side by the UN envoy Kiran Preterngast during his visit in Cyprus last month, and as they were discussed in the national council during it’s last secession.

  1. Maintenance of the existing system of “guarantees” and the “existing” treaty of alliance. The idea that Turkey should guarantee the TC State is being discussable.
  2. Permanent military presence of Turkey in Cyprus.
  3. Maintenance of Turkey’s intervention “rights” in Cyprus.
  4. Absolute (complete) political equality.
  5. Complete adherence and safeguarding of the principles of bizonality and bicommunality.
  6. Virgin birth (the new state of affairs will not develop as a result of an evolution of the existing RoC.)
  7. No negotiations within the framework of the EU. No EU involvement in the negotiations.
  8. Economic assistance (financial aid?) and guarantees for its implementation. Lifting of the so-called “isolation.”
  9. Exercising of arbitration by the Secretary general, no to loose deadlines. The negotiations to remain within the parameters of the existing plan.
  10. The minimum possible changes and if there is no agreement, a guarantee for the lifting of the TC community’s “isolation.”
  11. Compensations for the degradation of TC properties since 1963.
  12. Compensation to the TC community for the loss of benefits since the 1st of May 2004, when the RoC joined the EU.

http://www.phileleftheros.com/main/main.asp?gid=406&id=342737
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Postby cannedmoose » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:56 pm

If these are the TC positions, I don't think it's likely that talks could proceed on the basis of any of these points... they seem to represent almost a polarisation of views as opposed to any common ground whatsoever... in some respects it's almost as if they were written with the pen of Denktas rather than Talat.
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Postby Kifeas » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:58 pm

cannedmoose wrote:If these are the TC positions, I don't think it's likely that talks could proceed on the basis of any of these points... they seem to represent almost a polarisation of views as opposed to any common ground whatsoever... in some respects it's almost as if they were written with the pen of Denktas rather than Talat.


You better get used to this fact!
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Postby cannedmoose » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:01 pm

The point that amazes me is the absence of any EU role in the discussions. I guess this is because the TC side feels that the EU is not an impartial arbiter. Still, surely it would be better to curry favour with EU member states rather than seek their total exclusion from the negotiation process?
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Postby Kifeas » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:16 pm

cannedmoose wrote:The point that amazes me is the absence of any EU role in the discussions. I guess this is because the TC side feels that the EU is not an impartial arbiter. Still, surely it would be better to curry favour with EU member states rather than seek their total exclusion from the negotiation process?


The reason is because their positions, as well as the existing A-plan, are way far from the EU aqui and the overall principles on which the EU was founded. The only government that could offer them support on this issue is that of the UK, but it seems that their advice was obviously to insist that the EU is kept as far out of the process as possible.
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Postby Kifeas » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:20 pm

What about no 6, Virgin birth, etc. Doesn't that mean that the new state of affairs should also reapply to become a member of the EU and a member of the UN? It is so absurd!
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Postby cannedmoose » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:59 pm

Kifeas wrote:What about no 6, Virgin birth, etc. Doesn't that mean that the new state of affairs should also reapply to become a member of the EU and a member of the UN? It is so absurd!


Not necessarily, for reasons of expediency, they'd probably follow the same approach as Germany in the early 1990s. Effectively the two Germany's had never existed within the boundaries of the same state, so that was also a virgin birth, albeit with structures derived from the W.German state model. I highly doubt that the international community would have the time nor the patience to sanction the reapplication of Cyprus for EU and UN membership... I think the phrase 'don't be so pathetic' would probably be the response to any demand that they have to do so.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:32 pm

OK, let's have a look ...

Maintenance of the existing system of “guarantees” and the “existing” treaty of alliance. The idea that Turkey should guarantee the TC State is being discussable.
Permanent military presence of Turkey in Cyprus.
Maintenance of Turkey’s intervention “rights” in Cyprus.


This is just as unconstructive as the GC position that all Turkish Troops should leave and all intervention rights abrogated - it is one sided, and un-creative. There is one glimmer of hope in the willingness to have Turkey guarantee only the TCCS, but we know from the survey that such a proposal would not really work for the GCs ...

Absolute (complete) political equality.


Too general, like various of the GC demands. What exactly does this mean?

Complete adherence and safeguarding of the principles of bizonality and bicommunality.


See above: What exactly does this mean?

Virgin birth (the new state of affairs will not develop as a result of an evolution of the existing RoC.)


He he ...

Even if it looks like a Virgin Birth, it will in fact be evolution of RoC, because - as Cannedmoose has pointed out - there is no question of re-negotiating EU accession and UN membership

However, there is a valid point here: Evolution should not be of the "current RoC", but of the "Bicommunal RoC, which has been undergoing a constitutional crisis in recent decades"

No negotiations within the framework of the EU. No EU involvement in the negotiations.


Sounds extreme and paranoid. Aren't we supposed to be solving the Cyprus Problem in order to enjoy the benefits of EU membership?

Economic assistance (financial aid?) and guarantees for its implementation. Lifting of the so-called “isolation.”


OK to economic assistance, and guarantees that it will actually be given, but is the point about lifting isolation meant to be implemented before negotiations even begin? Sounds difficult, unless the GCs get something equally important in return.

Exercising of arbitration by the Secretary general, no too loose deadlines. The negotiations to remain within the parameters of the existing plan.


I agree with deadlines, but not with arbitration. Not while the US is there to guide the pen of the UN Secretary-General.

The minimum possible changes and if there is no agreement, a guarantee for the lifting of the TC community’s “isolation.”


No. This is a recipe for disaster. It's like saying "let's pretend that we negotiate for a while, before you actually recognise our separate state"

Compensations for the degradation of TC properties since 1963.


This is a very positive and helpful TC-centred improvement. I agree absolutely. If a TC gave up a functioning house, why should he return to ruins and get nothing else in return?

Compensation to the TC community for the loss of benefits since the 1st of May 2004, when the RoC joined the EU.


OK, if TCs feel that this is important. So the RoC decision to join the EU made the TCs members of the EU as well, and now they should be compensated for not enjoying its benefits? I have no problem with that, but wouldn't that imply an undermining of the "virgin birth approach" that the TCs are so eagerly seeking? :roll:


Out of all these concerns, the only head-on clash with GC demands are the points about security. Neither side can simply "have its way" on this issue, and there is no possible middle ground if we just stick with the old formulas. A new and creative solution to the security issue needs to be found.

As for bizonality, bicommunality, political equality - all of these concepts are acceptable, so long as we discover a definition of these principles consistent with GC concerns as well.

For instance, if bizonality-bicommunality means "ethnic purity of the two constituent states" then this will not work for GCs. If it simply means "majority control of each constituent state", that will be much less unacceptable.

If political equality means "voting on strictly ethnic lines for the Federal Government, and then, on top of that, right to block every decision on every level" then again this will not work for GCs. Something will have to give for the sake of functionality, I propose that cross-voting would be an adequate improvement.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:03 pm

Kifeas wrote: Of course Bananiot said that they were even more, some 40 areas in total number.


By the time he returns from his vocations at Anti-Papadopoulistan, I am sure the changes will increase to 140!

wrote: For example, items 15, 16, 17 and 19 can all go the same chapter, which is that of unified economy. Look at item 16 (Only one central bank) and item 17 (Single monetary policy.) Aren’t they almost the same thing? Yet, "Politis" had chosen to list them as 4 separate and different issues. (?)


Exactly! I noticed that from the very begining my friend, but then I thought the post came from a serious member like you, I should let you point that out.

Still my complain exists though.We heard nothing from the majority of TC members...
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:16 pm

MicAtCyp wrote:
Kifeas wrote: Of course Bananiot said that they were even more, some 40 areas in total number.


By the time he returns from his vacations at Anti-Papadopoulistan, I am sure the changes will increase to 140!


:lol: :lol: :lol:


MicAtCyp wrote:
wrote: For example, items 15, 16, 17 and 19 can all go the same chapter, which is that of unified economy. Look at item 16 (Only one central bank) and item 17 (Single monetary policy.) Aren’t they almost the same thing? Yet, "Politis" had chosen to list them as 4 separate and different issues. (?)


Exactly! I noticed that from the very begining my friend, but then I thought the post came from a serious member like you, I should let you point that out.


For me, 25 is not that great a number anyway. 40 is not a big number either. It all depends on what the content of the particular change is. Given the sloppy and rushed way in which the Annan Plan was put together (meaning all 20,000 pages of it), I wouldn't be surprised if it needs well over 100 or 200 changes on a technical level.

The key issues are always limited in number, these are security, property, residence rights, power sharing, settlers, guarantees. Everything else is just details. The great challenge is to agree on the big ones, and you can't do that just by "giving a list" of 3, 5 , 50, or 500 changes. For that, you need to negotiate with sincerity and mutual respect.

MicAtCyp wrote:Still my complain exists though.We heard nothing from the majority of TC members...


I think our TC friends are not as concerned as we are about the actual details of a Plan. Their struggle is whether they trust us enough to want to live with us, or not.
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