Cyprus-Forum.com

[Acikgoz]

Copperline, in the world of we are all one people at the end of the day and such issues are not a zero sum game but a win-win where we all work towards fairness and equality in its purest for I would agree. But it is not.

That avenue is biased and therefore not a viable basis for assisting in building a long term comprehensive solution. If there was equal opportunity for restitution then cool let's do it. That's not the case so it must be opposed.

The avenues that Turkish Cypriots can take are much more difficult and are riddled with the deplorable antics by the Greek Cypriot side when seeking restitution. I am just sickened by the scorn poured on Turkish Cypriots - GCs are not worth building a future with given this is the way they choose to act.

[Jerry]

Acikoz this is what I wrote in my first response to you:-

Acikgoz, if the TCs can't get justice in the Courts of the ROC there is nothing to stop them going directly to the European Courts.
Can you explain what is wrong with using this procedure?

Are you not aware that the Orams are not TCs? Have any Turkish Cypriots been sued like Orams? I don't have a problem with either side using the other's land/property pending a settlement the problem is the "sale" of GC owned land to the likes of the Orams. There is at least one documented case where a TC has recovered his property in the ROC and the refugee living their was re-housed. Turkish Cypriots are slowly moving back south, I know of one who has opened a tourist office/money exchange just off Phinikoudes, Larnaca. Could a GC move north and do the same? Hypocrisy indeed!

As I explained earlier, I don't think much of the Property Commission but even if they did make an offer of compensation would it be fair, would more be awarded by the European Courts? A cynic would suggest that the awards so far have been generous simply to impress the ECHR and establish the commission as a recognised body.

If a TC is awarded restitution there is nothing to stop taking possession in the ROC. I'm sure the EU would take a very dim view if ROC authorities tried to stop him. If, say, Apostolides is awarded restitution what do think the chances are of him going home?

[B25]

I will learn nothing from you so please don't respond to me. What you have posted completely sidelines the issue I have raised regarding hypocracy - what you have done is known as deflection - a key tool used in politics to avoid facing up to answering the real question posed by giving filler.

The Orams case provides a 1 sided settlement method dictated by the Greek Cypriot Courts which is aimed to be enforceable in the EU and beyond. It is partial and is politically expedient for Greek Cypriot claims that cannot be equally achieved by Turkish Cypriots with similar grievances. Justice for some but not for Turkish Cypriots.

Also I noted all the debate re the ECJ and Greek influence and how it couldn't be, remember he was the HEAD judge and as such dictates agendas and direction. Forgive me for being sceptical, but there is always going to be at the very least a shadow of a doubt given the lengths to which the ECJ ruling sought to tie the hands of the UK courts that he was not perhaps as pure as the driven snow in his input and influence in the judgement.

Total case of sour grapes, cry baby cry.

this route is open to the TCs as well, but they have no case so end of.

You have a cheek to accuse the Judge of bias when your whole country is a criminal state. God whatever next.

[Get Real!]

It is partial and is politically expedient for Greek Cypriot claims that cannot be equally achieved by Turkish Cypriots with similar grievances. Justice for some but not for Turkish Cypriots.

That's because Turkish Cypriots don't have a problem with their properties but you're seemingly too lazy or too stupid to read and understand it...

The Turkish Cypriots have NOT lost any land/property on Cyprus because the RoC did the right thing decades ago when they established the “Turkish Cypriot properties Management Service” thereby securing TC property ownership on Cyprus…

http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/citizenschart ... enDocument

With only a very small number of cases whereby the government took over some TC land/properties (as in the case of one out of two plots of TC land on the edge of the Larnaca airport) under “Obligatory Expropriation Law”...

Obligatory Expropriation Law #15/62
(In Greek: Περί Αναγκαστικής Απαλλοτρίωσης Νόμου Αρ. 15/62)

http://www.moi.gov.cy/moi/citizenschart ... enDocument

In which case, reimbursement/compensation is based on (1) the current value of the land/property being expropriated, (2) plus 9% interest from the date of notice of the intent, (3) plus any damages incurred as a result of the expropriation.

Also I noted all the debate re the ECJ and Greek influence and how it couldn't be, remember he was the HEAD judge and as such dictates agendas and direction. Forgive me for being sceptical, but there is always going to be at the very least a shadow of a doubt given the lengths to which the ECJ ruling sought to tie the hands of the UK courts that he was not perhaps as pure as the driven snow in his input and influence in the judgement.

Tough titties that he is Greek and you now suspect bias which you’re welcome to prove if you can, but you know what?

DON’T COME TO CYPRUS ILLEGALLY AND YOU WON’T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS...

Carpetbagger!

[bill cobbett]

Absolutely agree with the sentiments expressed in the last couple of paras above.

It further seems very peculiar to me that some here and elsewhere, including Unofficial Muhktari Talat on several occasions recently, call for International Arbitration.

Well, haven't we had several cases of International Arbitration?

Arbitration, on several occasions, by the Senior Jurists of the ECJ and the ECHR? ... and these same people who call for this International Arbitration aren't they the first to throw tantrums and shout claims of "unfair" and "bias" when decisions of the world's leading jurists go against them?

There are several examples in the recent history of CyProb (you'll all be aware of them, covered many, many times here). Here is one of them... the matter of Varnava v Turkey.

Here's a brief summary ...

" Judgment of European Court of Human Rights dated 10 January 2008 in the case of Varnava and Others v Turkey - Greek-Cypriot Missing Persons

On 10 January 2007, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) delivered its judgment in the case of Varnava and Others v Turkey (Applications nos. 16064/90, 16065/90, 16066/90, 16068/90, 16069/90, 16070/90, 16071/90, 16072/90 and 16073/90) by which Turkey was found guilty of violating the rights of nine Greek-Cypriot missing persons and their relatives. The nine were combatants, except for Savvas Hadjipanteli whose remains have been identified. They were all seen alive after their capture by the Turkish army in Cyprus and in Turkey where they had been transported as prisoners of war.

?he seven-judge panel of the ECHR’s Third Section, with only the judge from Turkey dissenting, held Turkey responsible for the violation of the following articles of the European Convention on Human Rights: ...(etc etc) "
-----

A matter resolved by International Jurists of the highest calibre (with the exception of the judge from Turkey of course). The interesting thing about it and some other similarly damning judgments against Turkey (again all will be aware of them) was that the sole dissenting voice amongst these learned jurists was...... THE JUDGE FROM TURKEY !!!!!!

There is the bias, a very real bias, no ifs or buts, no may be's, no "possible" bias, no "apparent" bias but BIAS- PURE AND SIMPLE! ...

....and which of our tantrum throwing usual suspects have picked up on and condemned this bias from the Judges Under Orders From Turkey, these judges from Turkey who break their oaths of office and know what is expected from them by the Motherland? These judges of little or no integrity who have been nobbled by Turkey ...

Not a single bleeding one of them!!

A small point bill cobbett, arbitrarion is a quite different concept and practice to litigation. So your examples of referring to ECHR cases are not actually examples of arbitration. I understand why Talat, in his unenviable position, would seek as a possible means of resolving complex problems. Arbitration, most frequently used in complex private disputes, is essentially a mechanism in which parties at dispute agree, first, to appoint a mutually agreeable arbitrator and, second, agree before arbitration to abide by the terms of the resolution or settlement set out by the arbitrator. In private disputes - commercial disputes or shipping disputes, for example - it is very expensive to go to law, it is extremely time consuming and of long duration, and effectively impractical to cross the t and dot the i of each and every point of law. Especially where the allegations are six of one party and half a dozen of the other party, the formal turn to law may not be appropriate or effective.

If each and every person, TC and GC who had property claims had to go to law then the process would be interminable, and not necessarily fair. Generalised arbitration between groups of claimants might be a possible route.

Although there are some obvious problems with Talat's occasional suggestions to go to arbitration, it is not so misguided and certainly not as evasive as it might first appear to some.

Copper elah messah reh(rah),

Thanks for raising the small point above.

Without posting loads of dictionary refs. Arbitration has several related but distinct meanings in the language. Think it ok to use arbitration in one of its perfectly acceptable meanings ... as a binding judgment by a third party ... as happens during the investigation and as the end result of the litigation process. Does depend on the terms of reference set out by the two parties in a dispute to the arbitrator, as you say, to define which meaning of arbitration we refer to.

Some of the ECHR judgments, haven't been concerned with property, like those of our poor brothers Isaak and Solomon, the case of the fate of some of the missing and others, have nothing to do with property.

Anyway, to move on, when Talat and someothers speak of International Arbitration, what comes to my suspicious mind is a replay of the back-end of the Anan Scam where external diplomats and politicians filled in the pretty big areas of disagreement, which, as we all, I think, concede, opens the process to even more (secretive?) political meddling by the Usual Powers.

Am increasingly looking at a process of International Arbitration, not by blooming diplomats looking to ensure that third party outside interests are looked after, but an Arbitration by International Jurists. Experts in UN/International Law, Constitutional Law, EU Law, Human Rights Law, even Sharia law if anyone felt the need, and areas outside the Law such as Conflict Resolution, Minority Rights etc.

[Jerry]

Bill, your last paragraph is on the right track in my opinion. Arbitration with an international panel applyingthe UN Charter of Human Rights.

[Acikgoz]

Jerry,

There are finally a few TC cases arriving at the European Courts, but the process has been significantly longer given cases must 1st be tried in RoC and all documented commentary has shown that this has been very difficult and time consuming for those that have been through the process - this is where bias allows for fast track of GC cases and sit on top of the train and watch out for low bridges class for TCs.
They will be heard and in due time, but as with GC cases that now have been referred to TRNC property commission it will be interesting to see how they are remedied by EU courts.

London is full of ethnic Turkish Cypriots that have assets in the UK. There is no stretch of imagination to see the fear of TCs in the UK with assets there that by legal definition would fall into the same camp as the Orams.

I understand you have an issue with sales of property to foreigners that was original Greek title - no issue with you on that - BUT what of the land that has been taken of Turkish Cypriots - used, expropriated, not been compensated for etc. by the Greek Cypriot side. A greek, a turk, a brit, a christian, a buddist, a muslim, who care's the race the fact is someone else is using your property.

The fact is that there is no remedy in the South at present. We all know about the Turkish Property under trust in the south, it was legally expedient but practically equivalet to the North given many people are starting to believe they will never get their land back, particularly if the Orams lose the case.

Herein lies the crux of non-equality: GC remedy enforceable; equivalent not enforceable by TC as requires SC court. It is quick, simple, no need to go to EU courts for each case going forward.

In addition, any GC legal ruling can be upheld in the EU.

Regarding the TRNC Property Commission, what I do know is that if unhappy with outcome then EU courts are still open. But again, at least there is viable remedy that can be sought, again nothing so simple for TCs. It then comes back to the point that it is not equal justice for all you just have to work for it, that is a hypocracy.

I look at comments like B25s and Get Real and think, hey this is a crock. The GC govt and courts actually act in the same racist manner in which they, B25 and Get Real, talk, there is only disrespect and tradgedy for us going forward if we tear down the walls.

[B25]

I look at comments like B25s and Get Real and think, hey this is a crock. The GC govt and courts actually act in the same racist manner in which they, B25 and Get Real, talk, there is only disrespect and tradgedy for us going forward if we tear down the walls.

My answer to you is bollocks, Hypocisy comes only from your side. You show no respect when your lots jumps for joy and the cold blooded murders of Issac and Solomou and you want resepect.

Well you know what you can do.

As for TC land, there isn't any, it doesn't exist, it belongs to the GC as Cyprus is GC not Turkish. Entaxi malaka?

[Sotos]

You stole our properties and now you blame us for it? Isn't it you who wanted partition stole our land and then said you "exchanged" properties? So if you "exchanged" properties then how can you have any land in the free areas? Didn't you "exchange" them? If you want to be taken seriously then you have to come out and admit that all this crap about "exchange land" and "trnc" are bollocks, and that you now changed your mind about all that partition crimes, and you accept legality and justice.

[B25]

You stole our properties and now you blame us for it? Isn't it you who wanted partition stole our land and then said you "exchanged" properties? So if you "exchanged" properties then how can you have any land in the free areas? Didn't you "exchange" them? If you want to be taken seriously then you have to come out and admit that all this crap about "exchange land" and "trnc" are bollocks, and that you now changed your mind about all that partition crimes, and you accept legality and justice.

Well said Soto, oti tous siferi.