Cyprus-Forum.com

[Expatkiwi]

* Did the Turks walk out from government or were they thrown out?

* Was there a plot - the Akritas Plan - to ethnically-cleanse Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots?

* Did the Turks run from 100 plus villages for fear of Greek attack or were they ordered to pack their bags to leave by the TMT?

* Could UNFICYP have done more to prevent outbreaks by this or that side between 1964-1970?

* Was EOKA-B created to block possible settlements, which looked promising around 1968-1972, between the two sides?

* Was the 15 July Coup of 1974 supported by the CIA?

The above questions were raised in the British Memorial thread, but I think that a new thread (this one) should be established to answer these questions as the correct answers to these really determine the area of responsibility/blame for the Cyprus Problem.

To the Greek Cypriot members of the forum, you have dumped on me pretty heavilly for supporting the Turkish Cypriot side. Perhaps by answering the above questions - with reliable references - you can point out to me the possible 'error of my ways'.

To the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum, can you also provide me with reliable references to show that I have indeed made the right decision on the wronged party in this ongoing dispute?

[YFred]

* Did the Turks walk out from government or were they thrown out?

* Was there a plot - the Akritas Plan - to ethnically-cleanse Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots?

* Did the Turks run from 100 plus villages for fear of Greek attack or were they ordered to pack their bags to leave by the TMT?

* Could UNFICYP have done more to prevent outbreaks by this or that side between 1964-1970?

* Was EOKA-B created to block possible settlements, which looked promising around 1968-1972, between the two sides?

* Was the 15 July Coup of 1974 supported by the CIA?

The above questions were raised in the British Memorial thread, but I think that a new thread (this one) should be established to answer these questions as the correct answers to these really determine the area of responsibility/blame for the Cyprus Problem.

To the Greek Cypriot members of the forum, you have dumped on me pretty heavilly for supporting the Turkish Cypriot side. Perhaps by answering the above questions - with reliable references - you can point out to me the possible 'error of my ways'.

To the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum, can you also provide me with reliable references to show that I have indeed made the right decision on the wronged party in this ongoing dispute?

You may also ask why the two communities had to use two different entrances?

[RichardB]

* Did the Turks walk out from government or were they thrown out?

* Was there a plot - the Akritas Plan - to ethnically-cleanse Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots?

* Did the Turks run from 100 plus villages for fear of Greek attack or were they ordered to pack their bags to leave by the TMT?

* Could UNFICYP have done more to prevent outbreaks by this or that side between 1964-1970?

* Was EOKA-B created to block possible settlements, which looked promising around 1968-1972, between the two sides?

* Was the 15 July Coup of 1974 supported by the CIA?

The above questions were raised in the British Memorial thread, but I think that a new thread (this one) should be established to answer these questions as the correct answers to these really determine the area of responsibility/blame for the Cyprus Problem.

To the Greek Cypriot members of the forum, you have dumped on me pretty heavilly for supporting the Turkish Cypriot side. Perhaps by answering the above questions - with reliable references - you can point out to me the possible 'error of my ways'.

To the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum, can you also provide me with reliable references to show that I have indeed made the right decision on the wronged party in this ongoing dispute?

You may also ask why the two communities had to use two different entrances?

You could ask a million questions Fred but surely the initial 6 is enough for one thread eh...BTW Was it because they'd ate all the pies and were unable to use the other

[YFred]

* Did the Turks walk out from government or were they thrown out?

* Was there a plot - the Akritas Plan - to ethnically-cleanse Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots?

* Did the Turks run from 100 plus villages for fear of Greek attack or were they ordered to pack their bags to leave by the TMT?

* Could UNFICYP have done more to prevent outbreaks by this or that side between 1964-1970?

* Was EOKA-B created to block possible settlements, which looked promising around 1968-1972, between the two sides?

* Was the 15 July Coup of 1974 supported by the CIA?

The above questions were raised in the British Memorial thread, but I think that a new thread (this one) should be established to answer these questions as the correct answers to these really determine the area of responsibility/blame for the Cyprus Problem.

To the Greek Cypriot members of the forum, you have dumped on me pretty heavilly for supporting the Turkish Cypriot side. Perhaps by answering the above questions - with reliable references - you can point out to me the possible 'error of my ways'.

To the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum, can you also provide me with reliable references to show that I have indeed made the right decision on the wronged party in this ongoing dispute?

You may also ask why the two communities had to use two different entrances?

You could ask a million questions Fred but surely the initial 6 is enough for one thread eh...BTW Was it because they'd ate all the pies and were unable to use the other

I thought 7 would be better - one per each day of the week. Unless we've gone metric and are using base 10.

[insan]

* Did the Turks walk out from government or were they thrown out?

* Was there a plot - the Akritas Plan - to ethnically-cleanse Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots?

* Did the Turks run from 100 plus villages for fear of Greek attack or were they ordered to pack their bags to leave by the TMT?

* Could UNFICYP have done more to prevent outbreaks by this or that side between 1964-1970?

* Was EOKA-B created to block possible settlements, which looked promising around 1968-1972, between the two sides?

* Was the 15 July Coup of 1974 supported by the CIA?

The above questions were raised in the British Memorial thread, but I think that a new thread (this one) should be established to answer these questions as the correct answers to these really determine the area of responsibility/blame for the Cyprus Problem.

To the Greek Cypriot members of the forum, you have dumped on me pretty heavilly for supporting the Turkish Cypriot side. Perhaps by answering the above questions - with reliable references - you can point out to me the possible 'error of my ways'.

To the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum, can you also provide me with reliable references to show that I have indeed made the right decision on the wronged party in this ongoing dispute?

Greek-GC rule(minority status for TCs) insistence of one political group of GCs and Enosis and only Enosis insistence of another political group of GCs and Greeks explains the answers of all questiones raised above.

[Sotos]

* Did the Turks walk out from government or were they thrown out?

* Was there a plot - the Akritas Plan - to ethnically-cleanse Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots?

* Did the Turks run from 100 plus villages for fear of Greek attack or were they ordered to pack their bags to leave by the TMT?

* Could UNFICYP have done more to prevent outbreaks by this or that side between 1964-1970?

* Was EOKA-B created to block possible settlements, which looked promising around 1968-1972, between the two sides?

* Was the 15 July Coup of 1974 supported by the CIA?

The above questions were raised in the British Memorial thread, but I think that a new thread (this one) should be established to answer these questions as the correct answers to these really determine the area of responsibility/blame for the Cyprus Problem.

To the Greek Cypriot members of the forum, you have dumped on me pretty heavilly for supporting the Turkish Cypriot side. Perhaps by answering the above questions - with reliable references - you can point out to me the possible 'error of my ways'.

To the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum, can you also provide me with reliable references to show that I have indeed made the right decision on the wronged party in this ongoing dispute?

Greek-GC rule(minority status for TCs) insistence of one political group of GCs and Enosis and only Enosis insistence of another political group of GCs and Greeks explains the answers of all questiones raised above.

So we insisted only for our rights! And we didn't even ask for your minority to leave from our island. Just to stop oppressing us as you have done for the previous 4 centuries and allow democracy and freedom to Cyprus!

[insan]

* Did the Turks walk out from government or were they thrown out?

* Was there a plot - the Akritas Plan - to ethnically-cleanse Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots?

* Did the Turks run from 100 plus villages for fear of Greek attack or were they ordered to pack their bags to leave by the TMT?

* Could UNFICYP have done more to prevent outbreaks by this or that side between 1964-1970?

* Was EOKA-B created to block possible settlements, which looked promising around 1968-1972, between the two sides?

* Was the 15 July Coup of 1974 supported by the CIA?

The above questions were raised in the British Memorial thread, but I think that a new thread (this one) should be established to answer these questions as the correct answers to these really determine the area of responsibility/blame for the Cyprus Problem.

To the Greek Cypriot members of the forum, you have dumped on me pretty heavilly for supporting the Turkish Cypriot side. Perhaps by answering the above questions - with reliable references - you can point out to me the possible 'error of my ways'.

To the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum, can you also provide me with reliable references to show that I have indeed made the right decision on the wronged party in this ongoing dispute?

Greek-GC rule(minority status for TCs) insistence of one political group of GCs and Enosis and only Enosis insistence of another political group of GCs and Greeks explains the answers of all questiones raised above.

So we insisted only for our rights! And we didn't even ask for your minority to leave from our island. Just to stop oppressing us as you have done for the previous 4 centuries and allow democracy and freedom to Cyprus!

When 2 communities had politically equal rights they had equal power to politically oppress each other, if it ever had been required during the 3 years lasted bi-communal RoC... The issue was not the oppression intentions of TCs, infact there wasn't such a movement from TCs against GCs during those 3 years.

Put aside all other aspects of the Cyprus problem, political equality(then the veto right) of TCs was a protective power both in front of potential and highly probable GC tyranny attempts and Enosis desires. This is the essential of the problem. The president of Cyprus also had a veto right to use against any ill-intentioned attempt by TC side.

They both were neither educationally nor mentally capable to govern a bi-communal state in those times(Though still) but that's totally another issue which is related with their pre-60 living conditions, literacy and historical backgrounds; also Turco-Greco relations and cold-war circumstances.

[insan]

When the constitution was drawn up, Makarios hailed it as a victory. "We have won!" he cried to the delirious crowd massed outside his palace. "Cyprus is free. Celebrate, my brethren, and raise your heads high with pride." He promised that Cyprus would now become a strong link between Greece and Turkey and a factor of stability in the Middle East.

Actually he was not sincere on his words regarding Turkey.

It might well have if Makarios had not decided that the constitution was unworkable because it conflicted "with internationally accepted democratic principles and creates sources of friction between Greek and Turkish Cypriots." Most observers agree that the constitution is an unwieldy and difficult document.

Actually they were not well educated and mentally suitable to adequately govern bi-communal RoC .

In an effort to safeguard the interests of the Turkish community, who make up 20% of the population, the constitution requires that 40% of the army, 30% of the civil service, and 30% of the police be drawn from Turkish Cypriots. Both the President and the Vice President have the right of veto over certain laws created by the House of Representatives and certain decisions of the Council of Ministers. The result is a series of deadlocks. For example, no Cypriot army has emerged because Makarios wants the units to be completely integrated while Turkish Cypriot Vice President Dr. Fazil Kuchuk holds out for separate Greek and Turkish Cypriot detachments.

In whose demands there was an ill-intentioned hidden agenda? I'm highly tended to believe that the ones who desired making TC community an ineffective minority had an ill-intentioned hidden agenda.

Kuchuk complains that Makarios "never intended or even tried to implement the constitution. I told him it was like rejecting a new car before even trying it out. I urged him every day to press the starter and try it. He never tried. He killed the constitution as he'd always planned to do. He only signed it to get rid of the British."

Even Kuchuk was aware of ill-intentions of Makarios.

Makarios smilingly denies Kuchuk's indictment, but does concede that he always had a number of "objections and strong misgivings" about the constitution he signed in 1959. Last November he sent to all interested parties 13 proposals for amending the constitution. Since the amendments would obviously diminish the influence of Turkish Cypriots, the government of Turkey at once rejected them, and both factions on the island took out their guns, oiled and cleaned them, and began the shooting that the U.N. is now trying to stop.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... -2,00.html

13 points of ammendments proposal was the complete revelation of his and his backing crew's intentions. Though as I've always emphasized, the immediate rejection of discussing those 13 points was a very big mistake made by TC leadership and Turkey...

Had they accepted the discussion of 13 points, they would have only accepted the disproportional distribution of the government posts to be based on population ratio of two communities.

Anyway, another issue I've always emphisized is that the leaderships of both sides neither then, nor now are capable, mentally suitable or noble personalities to govern a bi-communal state be it unitary or a federation.

[Piratis]

* Did the Turks walk out from government or were they thrown out?

* Was there a plot - the Akritas Plan - to ethnically-cleanse Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots?

* Did the Turks run from 100 plus villages for fear of Greek attack or were they ordered to pack their bags to leave by the TMT?

* Could UNFICYP have done more to prevent outbreaks by this or that side between 1964-1970?

* Was EOKA-B created to block possible settlements, which looked promising around 1968-1972, between the two sides?

* Was the 15 July Coup of 1974 supported by the CIA?

The above questions were raised in the British Memorial thread, but I think that a new thread (this one) should be established to answer these questions as the correct answers to these really determine the area of responsibility/blame for the Cyprus Problem.

First of all if you wanted to be objective (and we all know you don't) you would have asked all the relevant questions. Some questions which you could ask and you didn't:

* Who collaborated with foreign colonialists in order to prevent Cypriots from peacefully and democratically deciding the destiny of their own island?

* Who are the ones who initiated all the conflicts in Cyprus, from 1571 all the way to the current illegal occupation?

* How much suffering in terms of amount casualties and amount of time, has each side caused to another?

* Which side was the side that was asking only for what they had right for (like human rights, democracy and equality of all citizens regardless of their race), and which was the side demanding things like racist discriminations and Ottoman style privileges that would benefit one ethnic group on the expense of another?

You didn't ask any of those questions which are the most critical ones to determine the area of responsibility/blame for the Cyprus Problem.

For example you asked a question about the Akritas plan but you ask no question about the Turkish partition plan. Why?

Lets compare the two:

- Which came first, the Akritas plan or the Partition plan?
Answer: The partition plan. It was an official demand of the Turkish side in the 1950s. The Akritas plan was just an anonymous document that was written in the 60s and it was not an official policy of the GCs.

- Which plan required ethnic cleansing, the Akrtias plan or the Partition plan?
Answer: The partition plan. The whole Cyprus had a majority of Greek Cypriots. The Turks in order to achieve some "Turkish State" they needed to ethnically cleanse the majority of people and replace them with TCs and Settlers brought from Turkey. The invasion of 1974 and the actual ethnic cleansing that took place prove beyond any doubt this fact. On the other hand the "Akritas plan" just talks about how democracy would be brought to Cyprus, and has absolutely nothing in it that can be linked with ethnic cleansing.

The fact is that ethnic cleansing took place in Cyprus and it was committed from the Turks/TCs against the GCs, exactly as it was their plan since the 1950s. This is an ethnic cleanisng that actually happened, not baseless theories about imaginary ethnic cleansings that never happened.

To the Greek Cypriot members of the forum, you have dumped on me pretty heavilly for supporting the Turkish Cypriot side. Perhaps by answering the above questions - with reliable references - you can point out to me the possible 'error of my ways'.

semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit. "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

If for example you believe that Akritas plan was a plot to "cleanse Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots" then you are the one who has to provide evidence to support such a baseless claim.

As far as your 3rd question goes, here is the answer from Denktash:

Denktash said precisely the following in an interview broadcast on the evening of 22 March 1964 on a programme entitled “Window on the World”:

“We wish to establish a federal administration in Cyprus. In order to achieve this, it is necessary to move a portion of the Turks from one place to another place and to concentrate our people in certain parts of the island.”

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=26365

[Piratis]

* Did the Turks walk out from government or were they thrown out?

* Was there a plot - the Akritas Plan - to ethnically-cleanse Cyprus of the Turkish Cypriots?

* Did the Turks run from 100 plus villages for fear of Greek attack or were they ordered to pack their bags to leave by the TMT?

* Could UNFICYP have done more to prevent outbreaks by this or that side between 1964-1970?

* Was EOKA-B created to block possible settlements, which looked promising around 1968-1972, between the two sides?

* Was the 15 July Coup of 1974 supported by the CIA?

The above questions were raised in the British Memorial thread, but I think that a new thread (this one) should be established to answer these questions as the correct answers to these really determine the area of responsibility/blame for the Cyprus Problem.

To the Greek Cypriot members of the forum, you have dumped on me pretty heavilly for supporting the Turkish Cypriot side. Perhaps by answering the above questions - with reliable references - you can point out to me the possible 'error of my ways'.

To the Turkish Cypriot members of this forum, can you also provide me with reliable references to show that I have indeed made the right decision on the wronged party in this ongoing dispute?

Greek-GC rule(minority status for TCs) insistence of one political group of GCs and Enosis and only Enosis insistence of another political group of GCs and Greeks explains the answers of all questiones raised above.

So we insisted only for our rights! And we didn't even ask for your minority to leave from our island. Just to stop oppressing us as you have done for the previous 4 centuries and allow democracy and freedom to Cyprus!

When 2 communities had politically equal rights they had equal power to politically oppress each other, if it ever had been required during the 3 years lasted bi-communal RoC... The issue was not the oppression intentions of TCs, infact there wasn't such a movement from TCs against GCs during those 3 years.

Put aside all other aspects of the Cyprus problem, political equality(then the veto right) of TCs was a protective power both in front of potential and highly probable GC tyranny attempts and Enosis desires. This is the essential of the problem. The president of Cyprus also had a veto right to use against any ill-intentioned attempt by TC side.

They both were neither educationally nor mentally capable to govern a bi-communal state in those times(Though still) but that's totally another issue which is related with their pre-60 living conditions, literacy and historical backgrounds; also Turco-Greco relations and cold-war circumstances.

Insan, when it is the Turks who tyrannized and oppressed the Cypriot people for several centuries there is no base for you to make claims about "potential and highly probable GC tyranny attempts".

If some people needed protection based on the track record of each side, those were the GCs, not the TCs.

The 1960s agreement were created by foreigners and imposed on the Cypriot people, not to protect your minority, but to refuse the freedom and self-determination rights of the Cypriot people and allow certain Imperialists (British/Turks) to maintain troops and control over our island.

If the Turks cared about protection of minorities, and not about their strategic interests, then they would have given the same rights to their own minorities in Turkey (Greeks, Kurds, Armenians) who suffered the tyranny of the Turks (including several genocides), and who truly needed protection.