Cyprus-Forum.com

[Paphitis]

I think you do not have a clue paphitis, sorry. You make, it seems, a quick internet search and you come up with the best that fits your stereotypical view of the world.

Aviation is my life Bananiot. This is all I ever new from the age of 17, and was fortunate enough to receive the best training available.

Naturally, military and aviation history interest me deeply. There is no other job I am capable of doing, apart from fly. I have been blessed to have the best occupation in the world as far as I'm concerned.

The PZL P.24, the main Greek fighter in the Greco-Italian War (1940, WWII).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... _Air_Force

Here is a picture of the PZL P.24:



The PZL P24 was a Polish fighter that first flew in 1933. It was absolutely no match for the Italian Air Force or the Luftwaffe and was considered obsolete by 1940 when up against the German War Machine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_P.24

In this case you came up with the spitfires but you gave up quickly. I am sure you can find the official site of the Greek Air Force that will shed ample light on the planes purchased just prior to the Italian attack. You may also encounter another fact. The size of the Greek army that faced the Italians was bigger, especially after mobilisation.

Why don't you post some evidence of the aircraft purchased by Greece?

Be my guest Bananiot, and then I will explain why these PZL P24 aircraft were inferior to anything the Italians had.

The size of the military force itself does not guarantee any military success Bananiot. Throughout history, much larger armies have been defeated in battle by 'inferior' forces. Even the US has been defeated many times and that is with all the sophistication it possess within its arsenal.

An army will fight valiantly as long as it has a very good reason to fight, and is led by good officers that inspire and motivate their men. In Vietnam, the average American soldier did not have as much reason to fight as the Vietnamese did, and this is why the US was made to heel over time. It was a war of attrition.

Of course, you would rather believe that the Greeks won that contest, besides being fewer and ill equipped, fighting against all odds etc, etc, relying solely on courage and Greek "leventia" but these are football terms used by morons and I have no time for them.

I don't believe in leventia Bananiot. All soldiers, no matter what their origins begin as normal innocent people before they become soldiers. They are initially young boys who could not hurt a fly, let alone kill another man. It is the training that turns these young boys into fighting men. And it is the training that turns them into a 'superior' fighting force, along with their units leadership and discipline. Their equipment also plays an important role, because their equipment can determine their effectiveness as a fighting force, but this is by no means is the determining factor. If they have a reason to fight, then they will be determined to do so, no matter what.

Throughout history, there are numerous examples of amazing military victories from many nations. The Greeks defeating the Italians in 1940 is just one example of many, and this amazing victory is well documented and acknowledged by many nations and their former leaders. It is only you who plays this down, whereas, even the Russians, Americans, Australians, Germans and Italians acknowledge Greece's victory as quite a remarkable and surprising accomplishment.

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Bananiot, you ignored the above post from the following thread after I caught you out lying about the level of sophistication with the PZL P24 aircraft Greece had bought in the 1930s.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... 2&start=70

Can you please address this at your earliest convenience?

I really am intrigued as to why you find it necessary to lie and spread misinformation about HAF capability in 1940.

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.p ... c&start=40

[Oracle]

Interesting ...

[purdey]

Where you trained by the Royal Air force in the UK Paphitis ?

[Get Real!]

Aviation is my life Bananiot. This is all I ever new from the age of 17,

In about 6 months you’ll be able to get your driver’s license and quit playing with your model Cessna so be a little more patient…

[purdey]

Just to re-cap on your above statement about young men been trained to fight. While I agree with the point about training producing a fighting soldier I have to say some of the more aggressive units rely on a tempered aggression from day 1.
Special Forces units demand the best trained soldiers with that measured aggression which cannot be taught or trained for. In essence moulding would be a more appropriate term but tempered with a training that allows the soldier to slot into regular units when the need arises.

[Paphitis]

Where you trained by the Royal Air force in the UK Paphitis ?

I feel insulted...

Trained by the RAAF at Point Cook and Pearce, with a stint at a Canadian Aurora (Orion) Squadron as well, in Greenwood.

[Bananiot]

Paphitis, you get your info from wikipaedia. Perhaps you should widen your horizons a bit.

Here is something you will not find in wikepaedia, by Nasos Theodorides, of Synaspismos:

Υπάρχουν πολλοί μύθοι για τον ελληνοϊταλικό πόλεμο. Ο πρώτος είναι ότι οι φαντάροι μας με εφ’ όπλου λόγχη στείλανε τους δειλούς εχθρούς στα βάθη της Αλβανίας. Η πραγματικότητα είναι πολύ διαφορετική. Ο ελληνικός στρατός ήταν προετοιμασμένος γι’ αυτή τη σύγκρουση. Ήδη από την άνοιξη1939 το Γενικό Επιτελείο Στρατού είχε καταστρώσει ανάλογα σχέδια. Και από τον Ιούνη 1940 ο ελληνικός στρατός βρισκόταν ουσιαστικά σε κατάσταση «μυστικής επιστράτευσης». Στα σχολικά βιβλία και στα πατριωτικά αφιερώματα η «θέληση» και το «φρόνημα» ήταν ο αποφασιστικός παράγοντας για το «έπος της Αλβανίας». Η αλήθεια είναι ότι ήταν η μορφολογία του εδάφους, το βεβιασμένο της ιταλικής επίθεσης -με όλες τις δυσκολίες ανεφοδιασμού από τα ακατάλληλα λιμάνια της Αλβανίας- και μια πολύ ισχυρή ελληνική
στρατιωτική μηχανή.

Also, by the same author:

Ο φασίστας Μεταξάς αδημονούσε γι' αυτή τη στιγμή, και κάθε άλλο παρά ένιωσε αιφνιδιασμένος. Μάλιστα, ακολουθούσε επί χρόνια μια τεράστια κούρσα εξοπλισμών που στοίχιζε πανάκριβα στη ζωή του κάθε φτωχού Έλληνα εργάτη. Αγόραζε αφειδώς αεροπλάνα (115 τον αριθμό!), πυροβόλα, δεκάδες χιλιάδες τουφέκια, εκατοντάδες χιλιάδες βλήματα και ξόδευε εκατοντάδες εκατομμύρια δραχμές για την αγορά ασύρματου υλικού. Τα ποσά αυτά για τα δεδομένα της εποχής ήταν εξωφρενικά.

And another one, from an article by Katerina Thoidou:

Το 1939, για παράδειγμα, ο ελληνικός στρατός υπέγραψε κολοσσιαία συμβόλαια με την ΠΥΡΚΑΛ του Μποδοσάκη γα παραγωγή πυρομαχικών αξίας 600 εκατομμυρίων δραχμών Τα στοιχεία του Γ.Ε.Σ., σε αντίθεση με την επίσημη προπαγάνδα μας που ακόμη και σήμερα μιλάει για τον δήθεν ελάχιστο αριθμό Ελλήνων που βρέθηκαν αντιμέτωποι με τους αναρίθμητους Ιταλούς, αποκαλύπτουν ότι λίγες μέρες μετά το ξέσπασμα του πολέμου ο ελληνικός στρατός ήταν ισοδύναμος με τον ιταλικό: διέθεταν περίπου από 240.000 άντρες ο καθένας.

[YFred]

Where you trained by the Royal Air force in the UK Paphitis ?

I feel insulted...

Trained by the RAAF at Point Cook and Pearce, with a stint at a Canadian Aurora (Orion) Squadron as well, in Greenwood.

You want inslulting, I'll give you insulting.
Assikdir Lan ausi-pushdui.
You come on this forum , shortly after you play with your wee joystick and claim to be a pilot and an expert on aviation.

Hosht Len.

[Paphitis]

Paphitis, you get your info from wikipaedia. Perhaps you should widen your horizons a bit.

Here is something you will not find in wikepaedia, by Nasos Theodorides, of Synaspismos

Synaspismos, is The Coalition of The New Left Movement of Greece. In 2007 it attracted 5% of the vote during Parliamentary elections.

It seems that Nasos Theodorakis is not taken too seriously by the mainstream in Greece, and it appears that since you have made it a habit to support non mainstream political forces in both Greece and Cyprus, you think and believe that you have 'widened your horizons', whereas those that support mainstream or more popular movements, must all be narrow minded.

I think this is a very good indication that you yourself have become intolerant to the desires of the majority, which means that perhaps it is you that needs to 'widen your horizons', because the fact of the matter is, I won't mock Synaspismos, because I don't know what their policies are, but I may use their popularity as a means of ascertaining this parties conformity to mainstream ideals within Greece.

Bananiot quotes:

Υπάρχουν πολλοί μύθοι για τον ελληνοϊταλικό πόλεμο. Ο πρώτος είναι ότι οι φαντάροι μας με εφ’ όπλου λόγχη στείλανε τους δειλούς εχθρούς στα βάθη της Αλβανίας. Η πραγματικότητα είναι πολύ διαφορετική. Ο ελληνικός στρατός ήταν προετοιμασμένος γι’ αυτή τη σύγκρουση. Ήδη από την άνοιξη1939 το Γενικό Επιτελείο Στρατού είχε καταστρώσει ανάλογα σχέδια. Και από τον Ιούνη 1940 ο ελληνικός στρατός βρισκόταν ουσιαστικά σε κατάσταση «μυστικής επιστράτευσης». Στα σχολικά βιβλία και στα πατριωτικά αφιερώματα η «θέληση» και το «φρόνημα» ήταν ο αποφασιστικός παράγοντας για το «έπος της Αλβανίας». Η αλήθεια είναι ότι ήταν η μορφολογία του εδάφους, το βεβιασμένο της ιταλικής επίθεσης -με όλες τις δυσκολίες ανεφοδιασμού από τα ακατάλληλα λιμάνια της Αλβανίας- και μια πολύ ισχυρή ελληνική
στρατιωτική μηχανή.

There are no myths about the Greek victory over the Italian Army, apart from the fact that the author seems to think that we had a "remarkable victory over the Italian cowards". This is not the case, because no reputable historian would in all seriousness classify the Italians as 'cowards'.

Furthermore, the Greek Army could not possibly have been as well prepared for this conflict as the author seems to claim, because they simply did not have enough time to adequately prepare or mobilise the whole army, unless Metaxas was planning an invasion of Albania from 1939 regardless of anything else.

The author also seems to denote the difficulties the Italians faced with maintaining adequate supply lines. This is not at all unique, and you will find that most 'invading' armies experience similar challenges. Terrain and topography is another factor. However, the latter would have effected both armies, and not just the Italians.

But labelling the Greek Army as a 'strong war machine' is just way over the top I'm afraid. The Nazis were a war machine, and so were the Japanese, Americans and the British. The Italian Army was also well armed, and even boasted and elaborate weapons industry which was almost as advanced as anything the Germans, British or Americans could achieve at the time.

Greece on the other hand, could not compete with any of them. The country had negligible industrial output, had no arms industry, still had rifles of WW1 vintage, and had a primary fighter aircraft which was of second rate Polish design and outdated by 1940.

Ο φασίστας Μεταξάς αδημονούσε γι' αυτή τη στιγμή, και κάθε άλλο παρά ένιωσε αιφνιδιασμένος. Μάλιστα, ακολουθούσε επί χρόνια μια τεράστια κούρσα εξοπλισμών που στοίχιζε πανάκριβα στη ζωή του κάθε φτωχού Έλληνα εργάτη. Αγόραζε αφειδώς αεροπλάνα (115 τον αριθμό!), πυροβόλα, δεκάδες χιλιάδες τουφέκια, εκατοντάδες χιλιάδες βλήματα και ξόδευε εκατοντάδες εκατομμύρια δραχμές για την αγορά ασύρματου υλικού. Τα ποσά αυτά για τα δεδομένα της εποχής ήταν εξωφρενικά.

Nasos Theodorakis really does undo himself here, since the leftist politician seems willing to highlight Metaxas' 'fascist' tendencies. So his unsubstantiated claims, seem to underline a clearly politically motivated agenda to discredit Greece's accomplishments just because the nation had a 'fascist' dictator that led the war effort against the Italians.

You say that Greece ordered some 115 Fighter Aircraft from Poland. Now this by no means would have tipped the balance in Greece's favour, especially since the PZL P24 was considered obsolete against Italian aircraft at the time. To put things into perspective for you, the Italians, Germans, British, Americans, and Japanese had literally thousands of aircraft within their inventories, and also boasted substantial weapons industries, and so all of a sudden these 115 aircraft become a drop in the ocean compared to the might of the Italian Air Force.

Το 1939, για παράδειγμα, ο ελληνικός στρατός υπέγραψε κολοσσιαία συμβόλαια με την ΠΥΡΚΑΛ του Μποδοσάκη γα παραγωγή πυρομαχικών αξίας 600 εκατομμυρίων δραχμών Τα στοιχεία του Γ.Ε.Σ., σε αντίθεση με την επίσημη προπαγάνδα μας που ακόμη και σήμερα μιλάει για τον δήθεν ελάχιστο αριθμό Ελλήνων που βρέθηκαν αντιμέτωποι με τους αναρίθμητους Ιταλούς, αποκαλύπτουν ότι λίγες μέρες μετά το ξέσπασμα του πολέμου ο ελληνικός στρατός ήταν ισοδύναμος με τον ιταλικό: διέθεταν περίπου από 240.000 άντρες ο καθένας.

The Greek Army totalled some 240,000 soldiers in its entirety, but not all of them were mobilised towards the front along the Albanian border.

But as I stated in an earlier post, this has very little to do with the likelihood of military success. Adequate supply lines are more likely to be a determining factor.

Most military strategists would still have assumed that the Italians would have easily 'accounted' for the Greek Army even if it were twice the size of the invading Italians. Even Hitler himself took it for granted that the Greeks would be easily defeated by the Italians which is why he did not think it was necessary to divert German resources to the area, and he would have had excellent knowledge of Greece's lacklustre military capabilities.

Purchasing 115 fighters, artillery, rifles and ammunition really was not an arms deal of any significant note, when compared to what the Italians were purchasing and building on their very own production lines.

[Jimski999]

Unfortunately I cannot read Greek though the reference made relating to the Italians being cowards is not strictly true. The Italian Army in Ethiopia was the only army in the Second World War to be given conditional surrender due to their bravery and tenacity in resisting the Allies and some of the bravest acts during the war were carried out by Italian Naval personnel.