Cyprus-Forum.com

[Tony-4497]

Partition is a better choice than anarchy. After all, forcing a bitterly divorced couple to live under one roof is doomed to failure...

There are two types of people (from both sides) that want partition. The confirmed nationalists and the self proclaimed guardians of human rights who in the past, however, failed miserably in this field and have thus waived away any sort of credibility they claim to process. In fact, the second group derives from the first one.

Soon a "war" will break out, between the Cypriots (from both sides) that seek solution so that our two communities can live together in peace and those that dread solution, for various reasons. On both sides, the bigots are doing everything right now to convince us that the talks are doomed because they hate to wake up one morning and hear that the talks are nearing to a happy end. The messages sent by Eroglu and the rejectionists in the GC community are amazingly similar. They have a common enemy: SOLUTION.

I believe the forces that do want solution are gathering strength. The environment today has nothing to do with 2004. Today, there is no Papadopoulos and in Greece, George Papandreou is a strong supporter of solution. The signals from Turkey are also positive and our rejectionists have already started to condition people that what we are witnessing is nothing more that a communication ploy. Old tricks, in a different environment, however. This time people will not be fooled that easily.

Expatkiwi, decent Cypriots do not want a divorce. We have been forced apart for too long. This time, we should be calling the shots and tell the bigots in a clear voice, GC's and TC's together: You have done all the damage you could have done. Now, leave us along to start the new age for Cyprus where the two communities will at long last begin to live a proper life in a secure, peaceful, cooperative and above all humane environment where GC's and TC's can forge solid bonds of friendship.

Bananiot

You seem to imply that 76% of GCs were somehow tricked into voting No by various bigots etc. Is your opinion of GCs really that low?

What are you doing to ensure that the legitimate, fundamental rights of GCs will be respected in the new plan, so that it will make sense for GCs to vote Yes?

If your various interactions with TCs had a tangible result towards a positive direction (e.g. a common statement requesting the withdrawal of Turkish troops and settlers and respect of each Cypriot's INDIVIDUAL and private human right of property), then I would join such initiatives.

[Tim Drayton]

The TRNC's government is a government of representatives elected by the people living in the TRNC, yet its organs of power and control answer to a foreign country: Turkey. Is this what the people of the TRNC wanted?
Somaliland has more ligitimacy owing to it not having any other country protecting it, thus making it truly independent. The government in Ankara - through its embassy in Nicosia - is calling the shots in the north, and as a result, is making a mockery of the 1983 Unilateral Declaration of Independence. Rauf Denktas told me in a letter that the TRNC needed to be declared to ensure the survival of the Turkish Cypriot people as a nation. Judging from what I have read about Cypriot history since 1960, I'm in agreement, but if the price paid for the UDI is the eventual annexation of the TRNC to Turkey, then Mr. Denktas' 1983 proclaimation has actually sealed his people's fate. So much for the sovereignty of the government of the TRNC.

I think little doubt remains that the motive for proclaiming the TRNC in 1983, when there already existed an entity known as the 'Turkish Cypriot Federated State', was simply that the TCFS constitution would not permit Denktash to run for a third term in office and Turkey simply did not want anybody else apart from Denktash. I am afraid that it was about protecting Turkey's, and not the Turkish Cypriot people's, interests.

Retired Turkish diplomat İlter Türkmen admitted as such in a newspaper interview he gave on 7 July 2009.

I made a translation of this interview here:

http://www.timdrayton.com/a36.html

[Tim Drayton]

Yfred meeting up for meals and social activities does not constitute anything after 5 years of "socialising" nothing has changed the mentality is still the same as it was in 1963...but worse because allowing for the fact that people we more ignorant back then.

Just a few years ago people were afraid of talking out, for fear of being accused of being traitors.
5000 people would gather in TRNC for peace and they would be labelled as traitors. Then it grew to 50000 Dengtash and Turkey gave way. It certainly is a hell of a lot better now than it was anytime between 63 and before the crossings opened.

I agree. I visited the Işık Kitabevi bookshop in Nicosia last week. It is back in business again at its old location just as it was before. They tried and failed to firebomb it out of existence. It will not be easy to get the genie back into the bottle.

[insan]

The TRNC's government is a government of representatives elected by the people living in the TRNC, yet its organs of power and control answer to a foreign country: Turkey. Is this what the people of the TRNC wanted?
Somaliland has more ligitimacy owing to it not having any other country protecting it, thus making it truly independent. The government in Ankara - through its embassy in Nicosia - is calling the shots in the north, and as a result, is making a mockery of the 1983 Unilateral Declaration of Independence. Rauf Denktas told me in a letter that the TRNC needed to be declared to ensure the survival of the Turkish Cypriot people as a nation. Judging from what I have read about Cypriot history since 1960, I'm in agreement, but if the price paid for the UDI is the eventual annexation of the TRNC to Turkey, then Mr. Denktas' 1983 proclaimation has actually sealed his people's fate. So much for the sovereignty of the government of the TRNC.

I think little doubt remains that the motive for proclaiming the TRNC in 1983, when there already existed an entity known as the 'Turkish Cypriot Federated State', was simply that the TCFS constitution would not permit Denktash to run for a third term in office and Turkey simply did not want anybody else apart from Denktash. I am afraid that it was about protecting Turkey's, and not the Turkish Cypriot people's, interests.

Retired Turkish diplomat İlter Türkmen admitted as such in a newspaper interview he gave on 7 July 2009.

I made a translation of this interview here:

http://www.timdrayton.com/a36.html

What u say is partly true, Tim but there r local sources cite that there weren't any other candidates for TC presidency. CTP was very weak in those years just had abt 13% vote potential and right wingers were in agreement that as an experienced negotiator it would be the best to reelect Denktash as president.

For the sake of democracy and creating impressions in favour of 9 years old TFSC, another formula could be found but then the right wingers were neither capable(though still they r not) nor cared abt democracy in young state which survived from Greek-GC domination attempts just 9 years ago.

Though what's happened when leftists became stronger and Talat elected to presidency? Still the right wing leaderships don't trust left wingers regarding the solution of Cyprus problem even though Talat faced with the difficulties in front of reunification and acted accordingly then faced accusations from GC side that he Denktashized and became a puppet of Turkey...

[Expatkiwi]

The fact remains that by the bare fact of Turkey directly controlling institutions that by right should be controlled by the TRNC, Turkey is acting more of an occupation power than a protective power. As a lot of the TRNC citizens regard Turkey's presence as benign and required to assure security, Turkey's controlling of the institutions of power in what is supposed to be a sovereign state may be seen purely as a "necessary evil" given the state of siege that the TRNC finds itself in. Still, those citizens of the TRNC who believe in their nation's independence need to carefully ask themselves if the cost of the level of Turkish control is doing more harm than good, because at the current time, Turkey's rather heavy-handed military presence and their selective sidelining of the TRNC government is simply giving credence to the Greek Cypriot claim that the TRNC is nothing more than a puppet state, which could well be absorbed into Turkey at any time.

[insan]

The fact remains that by the bare fact of Turkey directly controlling institutions that by right should be controlled by the TRNC, Turkey is acting more of an occupation power than a protective power. As a lot of the TRNC citizens regard Turkey's presence as benign and required to assure security, Turkey's controlling of the institutions of power in what is supposed to be a sovereign state may be seen purely as a "necessary evil" given the state of siege that the TRNC finds itself in. Still, those citizens of the TRNC who believe in their nation's independence need to carefully ask themselves if the cost of the level of Turkish control is doing more harm than good, because at the current time, Turkey's rather heavy-handed military presence and their selective sidelining of the TRNC government is simply giving credence to the Greek Cypriot claim that the TRNC is nothing more than a puppet state, which could well be absorbed into Turkey at any time.

Expatkiwi, do u think right wing TCs who r in vast majority in TRNC need any control by Turkey? In the last 35 years overwhelmingly right wing TC political parties were in power which support strong cooperation and collaboration with turkey.

In this context, why should Turkey attempt to control them and not respond their cooperation and colaboration requests? It's illogical!

However if u claim that various political parties in Turkey try to influence the goings-on and elections in TRNC(even everywhere they have interests)then I ask u which of the concerned parties don't try to influence the goings-on and elections when they think it is necessary because of their interests?

[Oracle]

The fact remains that by the bare fact of Turkey directly controlling institutions that by right should be controlled by the TRNC, Turkey is acting more of an occupation power than a protective power..

How did you establish such a "right"?

At least Turkey, by behaving like an occupation force, is not sending any mixed messages!

Wake up and realise the "TRNC" is, and always will be, an unrecognised entity without any sovereign rights and that Turkey is here PURELY as an occupying force!

[Expatkiwi]

Expatkiwi, do u think right wing TCs who r in vast majority in TRNC need any control by Turkey? In the last 35 years overwhelmingly right wing TC political parties were in power which support strong cooperation and collaboration with turkey.

In this context, why should Turkey attempt to control them and not respond their cooperation and colaboration requests? It's illogical!

However if u claim that various political parties in Turkey try to influence the goings-on and elections in TRNC(even everywhere they have interests)then I ask u which of the concerned parties don't try to influence the goings-on and elections when they think it is necessary because of their interests?

It just makes the declaration of the TRNC so unnecessary. The reason why I support TRNC's clain to independence is on the basis of self-determination, yet we have basically in the TRNC a government which controls squat.

[YFred]

Expatkiwi, do u think right wing TCs who r in vast majority in TRNC need any control by Turkey? In the last 35 years overwhelmingly right wing TC political parties were in power which support strong cooperation and collaboration with turkey.

In this context, why should Turkey attempt to control them and not respond their cooperation and colaboration requests? It's illogical!

However if u claim that various political parties in Turkey try to influence the goings-on and elections in TRNC(even everywhere they have interests)then I ask u which of the concerned parties don't try to influence the goings-on and elections when they think it is necessary because of their interests?

It just makes the declaration of the TRNC so unnecessary. The reason why I support TRNC's clain to independence is on the basis of self-determination, yet we have basically in the TRNC a government which controls squat.

Expat we must be thankful for small mercies, TCs could have been introduced to the inner workings of the mincing machine if Turkey did not arrive and Sampson remained in power. Let’s keep it in prospective shall we? We are alive are we not? Lets not get too greedy now?
Denize dushen yilana sarilir. Kindly ask your better half to explain it.

[insan]

Expatkiwi, do u think right wing TCs who r in vast majority in TRNC need any control by Turkey? In the last 35 years overwhelmingly right wing TC political parties were in power which support strong cooperation and collaboration with turkey.

In this context, why should Turkey attempt to control them and not respond their cooperation and colaboration requests? It's illogical!

However if u claim that various political parties in Turkey try to influence the goings-on and elections in TRNC(even everywhere they have interests)then I ask u which of the concerned parties don't try to influence the goings-on and elections when they think it is necessary because of their interests?

It just makes the declaration of the TRNC so unnecessary. The reason why I support TRNC's clain to independence is on the basis of self-determination, yet we have basically in the TRNC a government which controls squat.

Expatkiwi, In 1975; Turkish Federated state of Cyprus was established in a hope that soon they would reach an agreement with GC leadership and reunite Cyprus under a federation structured united Cyprus state.

However, from 1975 to 1983 they couldn't reach a comprehensive solution to reunite Cyprus under a federative state structure. So, what could be the reason bearing the name Turkish Federated State of Cyprus under then the circumstances of 1983?

What led then the TC leadership and Turkish government to proclamation of TRNC was not only the frustration of that 8 years but pre-74 frustrations too. Furthermore, Greek finger behind some plots against Turkey, i.e Armenian terror and PKK support by then the Greek governments.

The proclamation of TRNC was necessary especially because of the above mentioned reasons.

In those years even up until early 2000s it was believed that Denktash was the best defender of TC cause and most suitable man for TC leadership in right wing circles... they didn't have any other candidates who they believed was better than Denktash. On the other hand, TC left wing was weak and had no chance to win presidency against any right wing candidate. That's why Denktash stood for presidency one more time. Proclamation of TRNC was not directly related with the aim of reelecting Denktash for the 3rd time.