INTERVIEW
First of all, what's it like being the first communist president of a member country in a club known to be the temple of capitalism?
I must say that my priority is not to change the system. My first priority, my priority as president of the Republic of Cyprus and as a negotiator on behalf of the Greek Cypriot community is to find a common, acceptable solution to the Cyprus problem and the reunification of our common homeland with the Turkish Cypriots. My position is to defend the rights of ordinary people; I fight for them and I find respect.
You weren't very happy with the EU Progress Report on Turkey announced last month. The reason, allegedly, was that the report did not call for sanctions on Turkey. Is this correct?
Not really. What I want to say is that the report is not bad. The report is in fact objective because it recognizes that Turkey has not fulfilled its obligations. But it does not speak about perspectives. What we want is not for Turkey to be punished. I want to make this clear because, at the end of the day, Turkey has to assist in finding a solution to the Cyprus problem. It has to recognize the Republic of Cyprus as well [and it has to open] its ports and airports.
But the protocol was about the ports, not recognition, was it not?
The situation we face is not normal, of course. Turkey occupied a part of the island, and the presence of 40,000 troops is not a normal situation.
When you talk about occupation, the Turkish side will, of course, talk about what happened between 1963-1974 and many Turks being butchered by Greek Cypriots.
I do not play the blame game. But what we see is that the Turkish leadership has decided to play this game. I hear Mr. Davutoğlu, Mr. Bağış and other leaders of the Republic of Turkey speaking about the intransigence of Christofias, and how Christofias is the reason for no solution. We need to find a solution by December or April. I do not feel comfortable because this is a blame game. What I want and [what I] ask of Turkey is to sit around the same table -- they do not accept me sitting at the table because they do not recognize the Republic of Cyprus -- for the purpose of a shared vision of Cyprus, Turkey and Greece. We need peace in Cyprus, but on a basis which will respect the independence, territorial integrity and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus, or a United Republic of Cyprus after the solution, and of course [which will also] respect human rights.
When you gave a speech at the UN on this point, there was a big uproar on the Turkish side of the island arguing that you were attempting to change the parameters of a possible UN-mediated solution.
No.
You were talking about the restoration of a Republic of Cyprus, not a United Republic of Cyprus.
No. Absolutely not. What I said was, we are going to have a united federal Republic of Cyprus based on a bi-zonal, bi-communal solution based on UN resolutions and high-level agreements between the leaders of the two communities and that it will consist of two constituent units with very wide-ranging autonomy. In all federations, the units or states, all constituent states, have a large degree of autonomy. I did mean Turkish Cypriots will get just such autonomy.
That was the perception.
If that is so, that is what the Greek Cypriots will get as well. But we will have a common central government in which both communities will take part in a substantial way.
Including political equality?
Yes, which was described by UN Security Council resolutions.
Have you ever likened Turks to Nazis because of problems in negotiations?
Absolutely not. I never compared Turkey with Nazi Germany, and I made that clear right there and then in responding to a journalist's remark. I was talking about Turkey's non-compliance with EU norms and standards, which, I want to point out, in effect, defeats the very purpose of Turkey's EU accession. What I referred to was that the European Union cannot continue to tolerate or to have a soft approach towards Turkey's continual refusal to meet its obligations towards the EU.
Coming back to sanctions, if I understood you correctly, you will not be asking for more sanctions vis-à-vis Turkey.
Turkey must help itself. As I said, our target is not to punish Turkey, but we expect Turkey to show understanding. It is my opinion that Turkey up until now has not shown the appropriate understanding toward the implementation of its obligations. I am not going to say anything now about December. Many things will depend on Turkey. We will carefully follow developments.
So we cannot conclude that you will not be seeking more sanctions in December. You may ask for more sanctions in December if ports are still not opened.
Everything is open. Everything is possible.
Do you not think Turkey has already been punished for not opening its ports? And Turkey had a valid reason for not opening its ports -- the EU side has not implemented a direct trade agreement, after all.
No, it does not have a point, and I will explain why. Turkish Cypriots, compatriots, can use ports and airports under the control of the Republic of Cyprus very freely to import and export. The Republic of Cyprus made a proposal a few years ago to open the port of Famagusta under the auspices of the UN. It asked for Turkey to give [Famagusta's ghost city] to the UN. Unfortunately, Turkey rejected this proposal. So Turkish Cypriots can trade, but not through the sin of the so-called KKTC because there are no two states in Cyprus; there is only the Republic of Cyprus and an entity created by Turkey, one dubbed as secessionist by UN Security Council resolutions.
But Turks in the KKTC said “yes” to the Annan plan and were punished because they said yes. And you were rewarded because you said “no.”
No. This is an illogical argument. Allow me to explain. The Annan plan stated that if one of the two communities could not agree and does not vote “yes,” this plan would be null and void. They engaged in arbitration. No UN provision calls for arbitration. The arbitration was not fair. They accepted 10 out of 11 of Turkey's demands. I was there. I said that that would be a disaster because the Greek Cypriots would not accept it. I told them this. I told Mr. Talat this. He was there; he represented the Turkish Cypriot community. I told him, my good friend, my comrade, that we will face deadlock. Let's sit and exchange views on how to avoid a deadlock. After the arbitration and the fact that the Annan plan was in front of the two communities, I asked Mr. Talat to visit the headquarters of the Progressive Party of Working People (AKEL). He visited it. I proposed to him a proposal that was also a proposal for Turkey and the UN to postpone the referenda so that some amendments could be made to the Annan plan to convince the Greek Cypriot community to vote “yes” on it.
OK, but…
He rejected, excuse me, he rejected this proposal. So I warned him that he would find himself under difficult conditions because Cyprus would become a member anyway and Turkish Cypriots would not be able to enjoy the fruits of membership.
But you put all the blame on Mr. Talat.
No, I'm not blaming him. I answered your question, which was saying that they have been punished. I wanted to avoid anyone getting punished. I think the Turkish leadership set two targets: They thought if both parts of the island said “yes,” this would be absolutely beneficial to Turkey. And if the Greek Cypriots said “no” to the plan, they would put them in a corner. And they actually did. They put the Greek Cypriots in a corner.
But Greek Cypriots instantly became members and were rewarded. They were not cornered at all.
Turkey always knew the Greek Cypriots, the Republic of Cyprus, would become a member, anyway.
EU officials say only five chapters are left and ready to be opened because many chapters have been frozen. If you push for more sanctions, are you not concerned that you will be remembered as the leader who torpedoed the Turkey-EU process?
Why do you keep focusing on sanctions?
Because it is what is being debated in Turkey and in Europe.
No, I want to avoid sanctions. I want Turkey to help itself. I understand that any obstacles in Turkey's accession process are not in the interest of the Turkish people. In no way do I want Turks to be punished. However, people are guided by their leaders. And the leadership of course has the right to strengthen its country, but it should understand that this should be done through the laws of the international community and that it has to respect the rules of the European Union.
Do you not think this government at least deserves some credit for having changed Turkey's Cyprus policy and pushed for a solution on the island?
Of course, I have to say I respect Mr. Erdoğan. He is a modern politician, he is a very sociable political fellow, and I respect all this. But how can I give him credit when he speaks about two republics and when he says there will be a new partnership between two republics. This is the decision of the Turkey's National Security Council (MGK), which they consistently follow. If this is the basis, we cannot find a solution to the issue.
EU Enlargement Commissioner Olli Rehn said time and again that 2009 is not a deadline for the ports, which you apparently do not agree with. He said it again several weeks ago in the European Parliament.
But he also said Turkey should fulfill its obligations. We are expecting a response from Turkey, and then we shall speak about the future. On the other hand, another statement has come as a threat to me and the Republic of Cyprus -- namely, that April is a deadline. I do not agree that April is a deadline. I hope and I wish and I will try my utmost to solve the problem before December. But I want to be objective and realistic, having in mind convergences and divergences, and difficulties and differences we face; I say publicly that I do not see a solution being possible by or before December. Even if we move forward as we are moving now, having in mind differences which we must bridge, of course, but following some principles at the same time, it will be difficult to find a solution even before April.
Does that mean you will give some time to talks and that you will not push for any sanctions in December?
I think the connection between talks and Turkey's obligations is not correct and not fair. Negotiations for a solution to the Cyprus problem and Turkey's obligation to assist in finding a solution are one thing while obligations toward the union are another.
We are fast approaching the December summit, and I understand that you do not want to prejudge.
No, I do not.
But people are trying to understand your position, especially your statement that everything is on the table.
Turkey tries to understand the position of Greek Cypriots through interviews. They could be in contact with us, to speak about everything that is of interest to both sides. This would help it understand, but it refuses to, unfortunately.
Is speaking to Mr. Talat not enough?
Of course it is not enough because, you know, there are aspects of the problem that are not internal problems. We talk with Mr. Talat about the structure of the future state of Cyprus and the participation of two communities. But the withdrawal of troops and settlers and other aspects of problems do not depend on us. They depend on guarantors and foreign powers.
Rehn, when he spoke in the European Parliament about mediation he carried on between Croatia and Slovenia, said it was very difficult when it was between a candidate and a member country and added that a member country should not use its membership or instrumentalize it in bilateral relations. Have you been instrumentalizing your membership against Turkey?
No. He meant one country a member and one country a non-member. The Cyprus negotiations do not follow this pattern. Talat and I are talking about the same country, [our] country, which is a member of the union. [We] are discussing how to implement the acquis in the northern part of the island once [we] sort out the problem. This is one thing. You know, Turkey's accession problems do not involve Cyprus. Cyprus supports Turkish accession, its full membership in the European Union. But the union is putting some obligations on Turkey. Turkey itself took on some obligations and responsibilities by signing the Ankara Protocol and signing protocols for its negotiations for membership in the European Union.
Turkey is saying the same thing that you just said -- namely that the EU has not kept its promise of establishing direct trade with the KKTC. In fact, you vetoed that regulation.
Direct trade.
Yes, direct trade, which was prepared by the commission and vetoed by your government.
But it is not on the agenda of the EU.
It was in 2004, 2005 and 2006. The argument is that there was a promise by the EU which has not been fulfilled.
We have differing opinions. It was not a promise to have direct trade with the KKTC but with the Turkish Cypriot community. We have to find a mechanism for this. And I say that, for the time being, the mechanism is not upgrading the second state in Cyprus but to use ports and airports which will help Turkish Cypriots have direct trade without upgrading [the status of] the second state.
You have been excellent friends with Mr. Talat.
And we still are. I do not say we no longer are. We are negotiators. We sometimes contradict [each other] and have long discussions. But we are still friends. Otherwise, how are we going to find a common language?
Exactly, you call each other comrades. Now people think that if Mr. Talat and Mr. Christofias cannot agree, then who can? You were one of the very few Greek Cypriot politicians who went to the north and visited Turkish Cypriot politicians.
I was the first.
You were the first, OK. If you cannot agree, what will happen next?
I agree with these people. It is what we tell each other face-to-face when we meet. We say, if we are not going to find a solution, who will? So we have to concentrate our attention instead of engaging in a blame game. I made some offers -- maybe you know of them, maybe you don't. I made an offer of a rotating presidency. I made an offer of accepting 50,000 settlers to become citizens of the United Republic of Cyprus. I haven't received a response yet.
When you say a rotating presidency, do you mean a Turkish Cypriot becoming president?
Of course. According to the 1960 Constitution, we are to have a Greek Cypriot president and a vice president from the Turkish Cypriot community. I suggested that we change this position to four years for a Greek Cypriot and two years for a Turkish Cypriot, and the same term for vice presidents.
I was actually trying to argue that experts say it is the best time for a possible compromise. We already have Talat and Christofias and now Mr. George Papandreou has been elected the new Greek prime minister while Turkey has Erdoğan. So it is a perfect match. Do you think the recent election of Mr. Papandreou is an added asset?
I do not want to say that Mr. Kostas Karamanlis was an obstacle to a solution and that the election of Mr. Papandreou will contribute more. I won't say this. Karamanlis and Erdoğan were very good friends. Papandreou has good relations with Erdoğan as well; he was the first Greek politician to take the initiative with the late İsmail Cem when he was minister of foreign affairs. This is good for us, but at the same time, no one must expect new concessions from Greece and the Cypriot government to solve the problem. We made concessions, we are ready for a compromise, but everyone should take into account the worries, interests and expectations of both communities, not only of one community. For example, Greek Cypriots [who are] owners of property are in the majority. We cannot force them to give their property to Turkish Cypriots, so we must find a solution which will give the ability to property owners to make a choice.
But this creates a big problem, and Mr. Talat already called this an attempt to change the parameters of a UN sponsored solution.
Mr. Talat is not right. No parameters of the UN force or create a precondition for a bi-communal, bi-zonal solution federation to give up the majority of the property. This is not a parameter of having a federation.
Mr. Talat is facing a tough time and elections in April. The vast majority of experts say Mr. Talat will lose the elections. Will you be more constructive in the coming months?
The election of the Turkish Cypriot leader is exclusively a matter for the Turkish Cypriot community. I respect the will of the Turkish Cypriot community. And of course, I do not think Mr. Talat will be defeated easily. I will stop here because I do not think it is good for Mr. Talat or for anyone to express their wish for who must be the leaders of the Turkish Cypriot community and, vice versa, who should be the leader of Greek Cypriot community. This is not helpful. So I respect the will of the Turkish Cypriot community. I told Mr. Talat many times that it will depend on both of us to have the appropriate progress to help each other. So negotiations will continue, and I hope, first of all, that Turkey will assist real progress. It will certainly help the Cypriots, both Turkish and Greek.
I read your victory speech -- which was impressive -- in which you strongly spoke about your intentions and plans to reunify the island and sort out the problem. You almost based your entire career on the reunification of the island. But if Mr. Talat is not elected, you will probably have Mr. Derviş Eroğlu as your interlocutor. Do you think it will be more helpful to have him as an interlocutor for a solution?
You focus on things which have not materialized, and I do not want to comment on things which have not yet happened. I do not want to say this will be good or bad. I have to negotiate with the leader which will be elected by the Turkish community.
But is it not easy to negotiate with a comrade?
It is, as a matter of fact. This is well known, anyway. But as I said earlier, I cannot take part in the election campaign.
But you can help by being constructive in a possible compromise.
He must help himself. I told him several times. I already helped him. When I offered a rotating presidency, this was help. When I said I would accept 50,000 settlers, this is help. I have to say, I am strongly criticized on the Greek side for all these initiatives. They are all help if you want to connect these things with the elections in the north. But these things are not connected. I mean, we must try to find a fair, commonly acceptable solution with just conditions which will serve the legitimate rights of both communities on the island. Otherwise, if I tell Mr. Talat “yes” and if I say “yes” to what Turkey wants, this will not be helpful even to Mr. Talat as this will damage us both because Greek Cypriots will never accept these positions.
Mr. Talat was in Brussels last month and he underlined that you usually seem to be pessimistic. In fact, I asked him about how you quite often declare talks are not going well.
I do not say that.
But you say a solution is not that close and that it is difficult.
I say I am a reserved optimist; this is a matter of character. I am a very sincere human being. I always speak with people earnestly and face-to-face, and I talk to Mr. Talat face-to-face. I am cautiously optimistic. Otherwise, I would not have continued talks. If Mr. Talat is asking me celebrate before finding a solution, this is not fair. I will try with good will to not help only Mr. Talat but to help us both and to help the people of Cyprus find a solution to put an end to their torture, all the people of Cyprus, because I do not like to portray Turkish Cypriots as the only victims of torture and tragedy. There are missing persons, many have been tortured from both communities and we need to end this torture for both peoples.
Mr. Talat said a very interesting thing. He said you genuinely believe in peace and a solution but the establishment of the Greek Cypriot side does not want it. And if you look at what the archbishop said several days ago, Mr. Talat seems to be right. The archbishop was asking you to immediately halt talks with the Turkish side.
The archbishop is not the leader of the community. We are a secular country; the archbishop has the right to express his views, but I am the leader of the community, and I am the president of the Republic of Cyprus. I follow a very different way from that of the archbishop, so it is clear that I do not agree with Archbishop Chrysostomos. Maybe the archbishop is against a bi-zonal and bi-communal federal solution. Let him be against it; he has the right to be against it. I am going to reiterate my commitment for such a solution, and I will always try to find a solution together with my good friend, Mehmet Ali Talat. I hope we will find a commonly acceptable solution as soon as possible.
The International Crisis Group (ICG) issued a report at the end of September, saying this is the best time for a compromise and arguing that it may be the last chance. If there is no solution, the island will be partitioned.
I am against any blackmail, direct or indirect, from any group in the world.
Do you think this is blackmail?
I think it is a threat, and I do not like such positions. They should have said that they are encouraging and urging both leaders to accept a commonly acceptable compromise. I agree with this; it is my line as well, but if you say that if you can't find a solution by April, the island may be partitioned, I absolutely reject this. I do not agree with such positions.
But if you miss this opportunity, do you not think the partition will come to the fore as a reasonable option?
Why do you focus on the possibility of losing the opportunity? We must use this opportunity for a solution. This is my target, and it has always been a consistent target. I do not want to focus on bad possibilities. I want to assure you that the solution for the problem is a target of my life. Otherwise, a communist would not run for the presidency to run the affairs of a capitalist country. I want to assure you that I have sacrificed many things -- ideological and otherwise -- without denying my ideology as a communist, but I am handling capitalism for the sake of a solution to reunify the island.
While talking about sacrifices, can you make a gesture to Turkish Cypriots by leaving two seats in the European Parliament which have actually been reserved for them?
You are asking me for something without taking into account the fact that Turkish Cypriot leaders have rejected any position in the Republic of Cyprus. For example, if I ask Mr. Talat to return to the Republic of Cyprus and become the vice president until a solution is found and offer the seats in parliament and the seats in the council of ministers, will they come? They will reject this. So why are they asking for two seats in the European Parliament? This is not fair. Turkish Cypriots are not paying any taxes; they have the right to work with Greek Cypriots. Turkish Cypriots have the right to visit Greek Cypriot public health institutions at any time without even paying a cent. I am one of the creators of this opportunity, and I still think it is a good offer. But they do not take any part in the political institutions.
So no gesture?
No, of course not!
We always read about how Greek Cypriots are complaining about the desecration of their monuments in the north. There was a report in the Turkish press recently about the Hala Sultan Mosque, which is a very sacred mosque for Muslims. The report said a pub was being built in the mosque's garden. Will you do anything about this?
The pub or tavern that is there has existed for 30 years.
But the report was talking about the construction of a new one.
No, this is a misunderstanding. I assure you. Mehmet Ali Talat asked me about this, and I told him that I will look into it, I will examine it.
You invited him to do it together.
No, I did not. I promised him that I will ask to see if there is new construction going on. I promised him that if there is in fact a new building, I would stop its construction. But the situation is not so. The building there has existed for the last 30 years. There is no new building.
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