Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

It is obvious that you have a problem to deal with my position and therefore you attack some imaginary position trying to present it as mine.

My position was clear: Before the 1960 we were under occupation by the British and we had the right to fight against them. Also, since we were the majority, we had the right to decide what direction we wanted Cyprus to take (e.g. union with Greece). I never said if the tactics used were right or wrong - thats another story. Thats my position. Nothing more, nothing less.
So stop pertaining me as a Grivas supporter or extremist. For Grivas supporters look at Michalis (and Bananiot?) that support DYSI the party that all those Grivas supporters are.

Gibraltar is just one example. What about Falkland islands that UK did a whole war with Argentina to keep them? The fact is that Cyprus is small and weak, and in a very strategic place and the Brits would never let go.

[mehmet]

What about the Falkland Islands? They were unoccupied until British people settled there. There were no Argentine people there. They have never asked for the British to abandon them. You can't compare Cyprus with Falkland Islands. Try and see if you can find another example of a colony where the people are fighting British rule. Northern Ireland? Actually the majority of the people there think they are British and don't want the British soldiers to leave either.

When you say 'we' had the right, am I and the other Turkish Cypriots part of that 'we'? Do you mean we as in Greek or as in Cypriot? Firstly EOKA were not fighting for independence but to make Cyprus a part of Greece. So it wasn't a Cypriot struggle but a Greek struggle. Or did you expect the Turkish Cypriots to join EOKA also?

Secondly, the fight against the British involved tactics which ultimately brought Turkey and Turkish Cypriots into the conflict. EOKA did this, I would be surprised to find a single Turkish Cypriot who disagrees with that. As well, many Greek Cypriots are also aware of the damage EOKA caused. In another conflict a politician made a remark about lions being led by donkeys. Well, you have to judge for yourself whether EOKA's legacy has helped the people who consider themselves for whom being Greek is more important than being Cypriot.

[michalis5354]

It is good to see where mistakes had been done in the past but is much better to learn from these mistakes and move forward. Thats how both communities will be better Off.

And how can both communities move forward? Of course not by isolation as it is now , not by silence not with suspicion and misinformation and discriination . But through channels of communication , cooperation , joined investment projects.
Listening each other and understanding their fears and concerns. Thats how trust can be gained back.

Nobody is faultless and of course we are not faultless! Accepting critisism and admiting mistakes is one step to move forward and change.

So stop pertaining me as a Grivas supporter or extremist. For Grivas supporters look at Michalis (and Bananiot?) that support DYSI the party that all those Grivas supporters are

It does not mean that because I support DYSI I support Grivas as well. DYSI in my opinion is one of the most progressive Parties who give answers to problems and of proposing radical reforms in public , private life and it is this party who had consistetly strongly supported the Cyprus direction to Europe together with the former leader of GC community George Vasiliou and president of EDI party. Having said that I do not think I could have ever voted other party at the moment apart of these two who in my opinion are the most relliable overall. And I do not say that they are Perfect as a lot of things needed to had been done . And I am not happy to see all these old politicians not willing to let new and young people to come to politics. Under such an environemnt none young person will be willing to get involved with politics where their views will be ignored and discriminated from the OLD nationalist.

I judge anyone on his abilities on introducing change and especially on his reliablity NOW and not 30 years ago.

If anyone tried to forcast my views it would be in exactly opposite direction of the views of the T.Papadopoulos as I always disagree on many areas in general.

[Piratis]

What about the Falkland Islands? They were unoccupied until British people settled there.

Maybe thats what they teach you in the UK. What I know is that some natives where living there long time before the Brits. Also, French and Spanish were there before the British.

When you say 'we' had the right, am I and the other Turkish Cypriots part of that 'we'? Do you mean we as in Greek or as in Cypriot? Firstly EOKA were not fighting for independence but to make Cyprus a part of Greece. So it wasn't a Cypriot struggle but a Greek struggle. Or did you expect the Turkish Cypriots to join EOKA also?

"we" means Cypriots, and the majority of Cypriots wanted union with Greece at that time. I didn't expect TC to join EOKA. What I say is that if the majority had that wish it was their right.

Secondly, the fight against the British involved tactics which ultimately brought Turkey and Turkish Cypriots into the conflict. EOKA did this, I would be surprised to find a single Turkish Cypriot who disagrees with that. As well, many Greek Cypriots are also aware of the damage EOKA caused. In another conflict a politician made a remark about lions being led by donkeys. Well, you have to judge for yourself whether EOKA's legacy has helped the people who consider themselves for whom being Greek is more important than being Cypriot.

Wrong and criminal actions were done from all parties. I am not here to defend EOKA and present all of its members as angels!! The only thing I defend here is that we had the right to ask a union with Greece. If British simply accepted this, no EOKA would have existed in the first place. Of course the Brits did not accept, and they arranged it in such a way that GC and TC would fight between them.
What they achieved is to have permanent bases in Cyprus, and as you can see from the Annan plan (their creation) they do not intent to leave, even if the majority of Cypriots wants them to leave. (maybe Bananiot can tell us how comes the "British with their well known democratic institutions" do not respect this wish of the majority of Cypriots)

[mehmet]

Come on admit it, 'we' means Greek Cypriots as you clearly didn't expect Turkish Cypriots to join you.

You have to realise that with a ratio of 4:1 in Greek Cypriot favour, the majority of the criminal actions were by EOKA. You make it sound like for every action by EOKA there was similar response from within Turkish Cypriot community.

I don't dispute your right to ask for union with Greece, but when EOKA start to kill its opponents then those parties had the right to resist militarily also. It took until 1974 for EOKA to realise it couldn't achieve its aims with guns. We know what happened to make EOKA finally realise. History has examples of nations that achieve objectives without violence. For EOKA, our wishes didn't matter, therefore for the majority we also didn't matter.

[Piratis]

Come on admit it, 'we' means Greek Cypriots as you clearly didn't expect Turkish Cypriots to join you.

Greek Cypriots are the 78%. So if 90% of that 78% wanted something, even if 0% of the 18% wanted it, that 90% of the 78% is the majority of all Cypriots.
If only say 60% of Greek Cypriots wanted union with Greece (60% of 78% is 47% - which is bellow 50%) and no TC wanted it then such claim would not be rightful. Clear??

You have to realise that with a ratio of 4:1 in Greek Cypriot favour, the majority of the criminal actions were by EOKA. You make it sound like for every action by EOKA there was similar response from within Turkish Cypriot community.

I wasn't there to count, what is interesting is that you remembered the ratio all of a sudden. (Actually TCs are less than 1/5th). The reality remains that crimes where committed from both sides.

I don't dispute your right to ask for union with Greece

Ok, then we agreed already. The other point is that I believe that when you are under occupation, you have the right to fight against the occupation.
If it would be smarter to start an armed straggle or not is another story. Is also another story how you are going to do this armed straggle.
But do you agree that you have the right to fight against the occupation?

when EOKA start to kill its opponents then those parties had the right to resist militarily also.

I am not here to support EOKA. But when you say "opponents" whom do you mean? I mean it was an armed straggle against occupation, I think they were supposed to kill the colonialists and the people that supported their occupation, right? So if you talking about those as the 'opponents' then those are the casualties of the liberation war, and both sides had victims.
If you are talking about some others that got killed just because they were TCs or just because they were communists, then of course such actions are not part of the liberation war and are just criminal actions.

It took until 1974 for EOKA to realise it couldn't achieve its aims with guns.

After 1959 there was no EOKA. If you are talking about EOKA-B that was an illegal, terrorist orginization of a small minority that fought against the legal goverment of Cyprus.

History has examples of nations that achieve objectives without violence.

Correct. And it has examples of the opposite. Probably we would be better off without an armed straggle (or at lest a better armed straggle where its leaders had more brains and not just nationalism) , but we will never know.

[mehmet]

Come on admit it, 'we' means Greek Cypriots as you clearly didn't expect Turkish Cypriots to join you.

Greek Cypriots are the 78%. So if 90% of that 78% wanted something, even if 0% of the 18% wanted it, that 90% of the 78% is the majority of all Cypriots.
If only say 60% of Greek Cypriots wanted union with Greece (60% of 78% is 47% - which is bellow 50%) and no TC wanted it then such claim would not be rightful. Clear??

You keep talking about numbers, my question is about whether for you, 'we' includes me and my family or just Greek speaking people. The numbers you are not so interested in you talk about later.

Anyone has the right to pursue political objectives, whether that objective is independence, union with another country, whatever. My point is that EOKA's tactics led to people having to choose between their point of view or Cypriot independence (were they traitors to EOKA?) or partition (definitely making them enemies). Since you can see that TC's couldn't join EOKA that left TC's with few choices but to resist EOKA and their struggle.

You might think EOKA is the only reason Cyprus isn't a British colony, (actually isn't it still part of the Commonwealth?), Britain was giving up it's colonies all over the world before during and after that time anyway. All EOKA achieved is to bring Greece and Turkey into Cypriot politics.

By 'opponents' I mean everyone who was agaisnt EOKA, because for EOKA there was no discrimination. So everyone who was an enemy to them had to right to resist them. If you decide to wage armned struiggle agianst RoC you will seee for yourself that the RoC is going to fight back.

EOKA was finished in 1959? or did they just become part of RoC security forces following independence and then get used against Turkish Cypriot's from 1963 until we decided to 'leave' RoC to somewhere we don't get treated like an enemy?

[Bananiot]

Here are some facts about EOKA 1955-1959:

British soldiers killed: 104
British soldiers injured: 601
Policemen killed: 51 (15 Gcpts, 22 Tcpts)
Policemen injured: 206
Civilians killed (executed, not caught in cross fire): 238 (26 Brits, 207 Gcpts, 7 Tcpts)
Civilians injured: 288 (49 Brits, 154 Gcpts, 64Tcpts

I believe the figures speak for themselves and if some people want to carry on kidding themselves that the struggle was a liberation struggle, they may do so at their own peril.

Let me also quote part of a speech (from "Politis" newspaper) of Makarios made on 4/9/1962 at his village Panayia in Paphos.

"Until the small turkish community, he said, that is part of the turkish race, the worse enemy of hellenism is annihilated, the duty of EOKA's heroes is not over". Makarios was joint leader of EOKA, along with Grivas.

It is quite obvious that the "struggle" was not only against colonisation but more against the Tcpts and the greek left which could not be drugged into the nationalist thinking at the time (what is happening today with AKEL is another story).

P.S. Piratis is in a haste to label people, how else can I take his insistance to proclaim me a DISI supporter? Why is this? May be its because of the notion that everybody belongs somewhere and hence more susceptible to polemics. If he would care to ask me I would be glad to furnish him with info as to which party or politicians I agree more at this historical instance.

[mehmet]

[Let me also quote part of a speech (from "Politis" newspaper) of Makarios made on 4/9/1962 at his village Panayia in Paphos.

"Until the small turkish community, he said, that is part of the turkish race, the worse enemy of hellenism is annihilated, the duty of EOKA's heroes is not over". Makarios was joint leader of EOKA, along with Grivas.

Also worth pointing out is that Makarios was the President of all Cypriots, even the ones he regarded as the enemy. In another speech he made during this time he mentioned that independence was not the end but the means to the end (union with Greece). At the time he made the first speech Turkish Cypriots were still represented in the RoC.

[michalis5354]

Werent more Healthy for EOKA to fight for Cyprus Independence and protect the Cypriot Identity on the island ? rather than fighting against Cyprus Interest and union with another country!

From the above figures I can understand that they fight anyone that was against their mission. This is a dictatorship approach because who told them that they were rightfull and Legal to proceed with such actions in the first place.

I consider these actions unaceptable. Having the mission of EOKA being achieved now Cyprus would have been a greek island like Crete or RHodes or like who else knows !

And If I can comment also about the above speech from Makarios because this is the first time I hear this . This is another SHAME And disgracefull comment IF he had said that!