Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Union with Greece was out of the question by the majority of Greek Cypriots for long long time already.

It is a well known fact that Greek Cypriot administartion always has politicaly been in relation with Greece. They always made the plans and took the decisions together regarding Hellenization of Cyprus; e.g RoCs EU accession... Because Greece is the first country who will help GCs in any case they have difficulties.


It is a well known fact that Hellenization of Cyprus is the second step of Enosis. What does Hellenization of Cyprus means? A Greek dominated Cyprus. Oppressing TCs with some "democratic" methods e-g Akritas Plan to make them leave Cyprus. And Chrisy Avgi(A fascist organisation) already have been opressing some foreigners and leftist GCs in south to make them leave Cyprus.




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[insan]

The same way that we are Europeans and we wanted to join EU, we are Greeks and some years ago we wanted to join with Greece instead of being under occupation by others.

You are so wise... Acccording to your Hellenistic view point... Demanding union with Greece and EU is absolutely the same things... Great!

Why does that makes us fascists???

When you decided to annex Cyprus to Greece did you show some respect to the numerical minority of Cyprus(TCS) which were one of the constituent party of RoC and ask them what they think? No!


So where's the respect to minorities? Where's their human rights? Just in the treaties and agreements?

TCs emphasized many times in 30s, 40s, 50s and even 60s that they were against Enosis; why didn't you pay attention to their thoughts? Because majority rules and do whatever they want?


So in what cases you respect minority rights? When it suits your needs?

If it is so? It's not democrasy and acceptable...


It is of coarse fascism!


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[Piratis]

Insan, are you trying hard to pretent you do not understand or you actually don't?

When you decided to annex Cyprus to Greece did you show some respect to the numerical minority of Cyprus(TCS) which were one of the constituent party of RoC and ask them what they think? No!

What RoC?? I am talking before 1960 and there was no RoC at that time. After 1960 the GCs that tried to dissolve RC were yet another fascist minority like you, that could not accept what the majority wanted and decided to use force to achieve their aims. I never sided with them!

So where's the respect to minorities? Where's their human rights? Just in the treaties and agreements?

So according to you its a human right of a minority to veto any decision taken by the majority? Do we have to accept whatever the minority tells us? So if before 1960 the great majority wanted union with Greece and a small minority didn't want we had to do what the minority wanted and not what the majority wanted? Thats how you see democracy?

TCs emphasized many times in 30s, 40s, 50s and even 60s that they were against Enosis; why didn't you pay attention to their thoughts? Because majority rules and do whatever they want?

They do whatever they want as long as they respect all human rights of the minorities and their actions are legal.
If in some cases they didn't respect the human rights of the minorities, or they did something illegal(and we know there are such cases from both sides), then complain about that and I am with you 100%. But you can not complain that the majority has to necessarily follow what the minority wants!

It is a well known fact that Greek Cypriot administartion always has politicaly been in relation with Greece. They always made the plans and took the decisions together regarding Hellenization of Cyprus; e.g RoCs EU accession... Because Greece is the first country who will help GCs in any case they have difficulties.

This "Hellenization" of Cyprus that you keep talking about is only in your dreams and in the propaganda of your side.
We are Greeks and we are proud about it (we are even more proud that we are also Cypriots of course) and yes Greece is our friend and can help us. But we don't want to make Cyprus a place only made of Greeks and force others to leave!!! In the EU now every EU citizen can come and live and work etc in Cyprus. Globalization is a reality today, and is even more reality for us now we are in the EU. Why you keep recycling old Turkish propaganda that is outdated several decades already? This is 2004, not 1955!! you are stuck in the past.

We neither want or need to oppress anybody. What we want is democracy and full human rights for everybody. This is what we want and this is our aim.
If you aim is something other than democracy and human rights then thats your problem.

[insan]

insan, are you trying hard to pretent you do not understand or you actually don't?

I think you are the one who try hard to conceal the truths and and tell us that Enosis was a rightful demand of the GCs..

What RoC?? I am talking before 1960 and there was no RoC at that time. After 1960 the GCs that tried to dissolve RC were yet another fascist minority like you, that could not accept what the majority wanted and decided to use force to achieve their aims. I never sided with them!

There were a representatives assembly(kavanin assembly) of two communities which they were participating democraticaly under the British rule. TCs presence on Cyprus was a fact even before 1960. Why didn't those majority ask TCs if they accept Enosis?

So according to you its a human right of a minority to veto any decision taken by the majority?

Any decision? Enosis was an ordinary decision or it would determine the TCs future which would end up annexation with Greece and deportation of TCs?

Do we have to accept whatever the minority tells us?

TCs never demanded a whatever kind of thing from majority... Why do you exaggerate it?

So if before 1960 the great majority wanted union with Greece and a small minority didn't want we had to do what the minority wanted and not what the majority wanted? Thats how you see democracy?

Enosis wasn't a feasible demand... All of the GC authorities other than ultra nationalists admitted it... So you demanded the achievement of a impossible dream... and those who fought for this impossible dream destroyed so many important things. They destroyed brotherhood of two communities. They wasted the golden days of 60s youth... They caused thousands of Cypriots death... and many more...If they had a little respect to TCs, they would get TCs by their side and give a honourable independence struggle.... Winster proposals of self-government was the first step of liberation of all Cypriots but rejected by GCs because of their huge Enosis aspiration which encouraged by some Greek fascists... In a few years time Cyprus would gain its independence politicaly like all other colonies...

They do whatever they want as long as they respect all human rights of the minorities and their actions are legal.
If in some cases they didn't respect the human rights of the minorities, or they did something illegal(and we know there are such cases from both sides), then complain about that and I am with you 100%. But you can not complain that the majority has to necessarily follow what the minority wants!

Both majority and minority should always take each others demands into consideration. Neither side have a right to harm, oppress or destroy each other... We are two communities in Cyprus.. We(Cypriots) have been living in Cyprus for more than 400 years together, except last 30 years. Being majority of Cyprus doen't give you the right to do almost anything you wish, e.g Enosis...

We neither want or need to oppress anybody. What we want is democracy and full human rights for everybody. This is what we want and this is our aim.
If you aim is something other than democracy and human rights then thats your problem.

OK then... show us your political understanding ... It seems there a thousand different meanings of democrasy and human rights...


What GC administration dreams of is that to make TCs a minority like Turks in Greece or any other minorities in Cyprus which perhaps are only 1/20 in compare with TCs population. Is it right?


Regarding the percentage of communal rights:

Yes.. it has to be proportional... To take more representation than our population percentage is not fair. It's a discrimination. Klerides and Denktash had agreed on proportional representation and participatioon on every organization of RoC in 1971.


Regarding with the presence of foreign troops(Turkish, Greek, UN) in Cyprus:


A mutualy agreeed numbers of foreign forces should be maintained in Cyprus till two communities get along fairly good with each other. Then a referandum can be held and two communities decide foreign forces presence in Cyprus.



Regarding the settlers:

All unregistered settlers must be sent back to their countries. All others who had been brung 30-20 years ago must be granted the UCR citizenship. They are just 45 thousand settlers who are already registered as TRNC citizens. The other 75 thousands of settlers are their children or grandchildren who were born in Cyprus.



The presence of 120.000 settlers in Cyprus don't create any political risks for both communities because it has been clearly seen that just %3-5 of the settlers voted for the parties that have been founded by settlers. Overwhelming majority of settlers voted for the TC parties and there are 4-5 settler MPs in Norths parliament.


Regarding the properties have been being occupied by settlers:


They must be helped, provided debt to either buy the house they illegaly occupy or build a new house. The full entitlement of the properties which illegaly occupied by settlers must be given back to the real owners. They either sell, rent or settle down it.

A mutualy agreed limitation must be put on refugees who will return back to settle down their properties due to bi-zonality.


Regarding the political rights of Turkish constituent state citizens:

The full political rights of GCs who would live under the laws of Turkish constituent state must be given in a mutualy agreed time period when they have learned each others language and get along fairly good with each other. Otherwise they will face with lot of big difficulties to communicate each other and it won't be viable.



Tell us and reveal your democrasy understanding Piratis..... We came to present time...

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[Piratis]

Why Enosis was not a rightful demand before 1960? We are the 78%, and we could take the decision. It would be fortunate if always everybody agreed, but that doesn't happen. Its exactly the same with joining the EU: It affects everybody a lot but the decision is taken by the majority. If you don't like how democracy works then maybe you want to suggest a different system?

Enosis wasn't a feasible demand...

Thats another story. If it wasn't feasible thats because of the interests of some foreign powers. I am not talking if it was feasible or not. I am not even talking if trying for enosis was something we should have done or not. What I am talking about is that we had the right to ask for it and if our desire caused hostile reactions toword us thats not our fault, but the fault of those others that for their own interests didn't want to accept the desire of the great majority of Cypriots.

What GC administration dreams of is that to make TCs a minority like Turks in Greece or any other minorities in Cyprus which perhaps are only 1/20 in compare with TCs population. Is it right?

First of all there is no such thing as GC administration. There is government of the Republic of Cyprus. This government and all previous ones said clearly that the aim is a federal solution. This of course means real federation, and not just any so called federation that they bring to us.
by the way, why you keep referring to minorities in Greece? Minorities in Greece are treated like every other minority in the world is treated. Maybe you would prefer the treatment that Kurds and other minorities have in Turkey?

I will reply to your "Regarding" points later. I have to go now

[mehmet]

regarding ENOSIS and whether it was or wasn't a rightful demand.

This would depend on certain things,

1) there was one fifth of the population who didn't believe their future would be better in Greece. Why was this? I could quote from history books but I wont. Let's just say that Turkish speaking community felt they had reason to fear ENOSIS. Why was this? You might say it's propoganda and that Turkish people had done hundreds more worse things but we in Cyprus weren't seeking to oppress Greek speaking people. We have historical examples of the intolerance shown to Turkish speaking people through history of development of Greek state. Why would we want to be additional part of that history? If we don't believe history books we could see for ourselves what was happening to members of our community who resisted what might or might not be a rightful demand.

So ENOSIS and EOKA weren't a bunch of democrats seeking to win arguements. Their struggle wasn't a democratic one but a military one. I'm quite aware the British weren't going to give up Cyprus without a struggle but it was EOKA who chose to attack Turkish Cypriots. We didn't need to be professors to see where our interests lay.

So when rightful demands are unlawfully pursued the outcome was division of Cyprus into ethnic groups. EOKA and the idea of union with Greece is responsible for that, not the British.

Yes there is a RoC, there is also currently a government in Iraq. That doesn't give it legitimacy in my eyes. When RoC is replaced by something that is respected by both communities then we can consider that there is one country. At the moment there are two separate territitories, one mostly Greek one mostly Turkish.

[metecyp]

Why Enosis was not a rightful demand before 1960? We are the 78%, and we could take the decision. It would be fortunate if always everybody agreed, but that doesn't happen

This is exactly the mentality that brought the mess we're in today and we'll have problems as long as this mentality of "majority rules who cares about the minority" exists.

Since you believe that Enosis was a rightful claim, let's image for a moment that tomorrow the majority of the GCs change their minds and ask for Enosis. Do you think it'll be a rightful claim? If majority rules, shouldn't it be a rightful claim still since we haven't had a significant change in the population ratio since 1950s?

What did you expect TCs to do when GCs demanded Enosis? You wanted them to just sit and watch Cyprus slip away just because they're minority and majority rules? When 100% of a minority group opposed an idea, don't you think that there was something wrong? Isn't part of democracy to listen the fears and opinion of the minority?

Maybe TCs would not be harmed in a Cyprus united with Cyprus. Maybe TC human rights would be preserved. But is this everything? Don't I also have the right to demand for independence of my country?

When are you going to stop using democracy and human rights as a shield to hide your true mentality of "majority rules who cares about the minority"?

Yes there is a RoC, there is also currently a government in Iraq. That doesn't give it legitimacy in my eyes. When RoC is replaced by something that is respected by both communities then we can consider that there is one country. At the moment there are two separate territitories, one mostly Greek one mostly Turkish.

I completely agree. For 40 years, we've been closing our eyes to realities. GCs have been claiming that RoC exists and it's the only government of the island. And the whole world believed them for all these years. Similarly, some TCs still believe in a seperate state and try to convince the world for recognition. But the point is: where did this situation get us? Nowhere! We've been counting in the same spot for years.

[Piratis]

Maybe TCs would not be harmed in a Cyprus united with Cyprus. Maybe TC human rights would be preserved. But is this everything? Don't I also have the right to demand for independence of my country?

You are all repeating the same things, so lets just agree that we disagree.
In the UK now metecyp, there are many people that would like UK out of the EU. They can demand it, they can go in the streets and demonstrate their desire etc. But as long as the 50%+1vote of UK people want UK to remain in the EU it will remain. The same goes with joining the EU: 50%+1 vote is needed, and then the rest 50%-1vote has to accept the will of the majority.

The same is what would happen at our referenda. What would you say if 78% of Greek Cypriots voted "yes" and 18% of GC voted "no" but that 18% said that was REALLY REALLY against the plan? This 18% could come and say that they are from Kerinia area and that they do not accept that the majority of GC should be able to decide that they have to give up their own human rights (actually in this case they might even have a point, since as I said Democracy should respect the human rights of minorities).
So in this case 78% would vote "yes" and then Papadopoulos comes and says that the plan is rejected because an 18% does not accept it. I can't even imagine what you would say about Papadopoulos in this case.

The way I see it is clear: You can have a different opinion, you can feel very strongly against something, but as long as the majority respects your human rights, the majority doesn't have to follow what the minority wants.

let's image for a moment that tomorrow the majority of the GCs change their minds and ask for Enosis. Do you think it'll be a rightful claim? If majority rules, shouldn't it be a rightful claim still since we haven't had a significant change in the population ratio since 1950s?

Again, you are forcing me to repeat myself. Why?
I answered to you already:

As long as what the majority does respects the human rights of the minorities and is legal, then yes, thats the way it is, and its called democracy.

Did you miss the "legal" part of the sentence? We have laws we have constitution. Doing such thing would be against them.

It is clear to me that you want to distort the meaning of democracy to make it so that a minority has equal power as a majority. But such thing is against the fundamental meaning of what democracy is, so its a totally lame attempt.

[Piratis]

Insan,

Regarding the settlers:

All settlers are illegal. Turkey is responsible to compensate them and take them away. We might accept a small number of them to remain, but that does not mean we are obligated to do so.

Regarding the political rights of Turkish constituent state citizens:

The full political rights of GCs who would live under the laws of Turkish constituent state must be given in a mutualy agreed time period when they have learned each others language and get along fairly good with each other. Otherwise they will face with lot of big difficulties to communicate each other and it won't be viable.

Language etc have nothing to do. Is like telling me that now that we are in the EU we have to require everybody that wants to come and live here to learn Greek first. All Cypriots should have all their political rights all over Cyprus. There can be only some exceptions to secure that TCs are a majority in north, but nothing beyond that.

Tell us and reveal your democrasy understanding Piratis..... We came to present time...

I don't have my own version of democracy (like you). What makes democracy different from other systems is that the decisions are taken by the majority and not by 1 person (monarchy) or a group of minority people (oligarchy).
As I said many times, while "majority rules" everything that this majority does should be legal and should not limit any of the human rights of minorities. E.g. The majority has to take into consideration a small minority of disabled people and make sure that those people spacial needs are taken care of so they will not be left out of the society.

[insan]

Insan,


As I said many times, while "majority rules" everything that this majority does should be legal and should not limit any of the human rights of minorities. E.g. The majority has to take into consideration a small minority of disabled people and make sure that those people spacial needs are taken care of so they will not be left out of the society.

Under normal circumstances you are right Piratis... It is valid for all democratic states in the world. Cyprus has its own special conditions and some special rules must be applied in order to reach normal circumstances... what important is to be aware of that special circumstances and move the issue a mutualy agreed position... but you ignore all those special cases and consider Cyprus as Germany which was a divided country for a while ago...

The situation in Cyprus is totally different... As I said some special rules must be applied till both communities get along fairly good with each other...

First two communities of Cyprus must be united heartfuly, soulfuly and thoughtfuly; on a common ground. The everything will come by itself... Otherwise never will be able to reached a just, viable and stable solution...

In the short term TCs economical isolation will be lifted then in the long terms, if no solution have been able to reached for a long time; then the recognition will come...As long as the Cyprus Turkish state is recognized by the world; we'll get foreign investments, free trade, direct flights, tourists etc... These would be enough for us to get wealthy...


Not being in EU won't be a problem for TCs.... What important for us to have a good life standard and relations with the entire world.


Even the Turkeys unofficial control and presence of Turkish army won't be a problem for us because this is one of the worlds realities... Little, weak countries needs big strong countries help and protection... They know this and they are always ready for the reciprocal give and take stuff...


In a few years time TCs can give the %7-8 land back to GCs and exchange/buy the properties they have already occupy...


it would be the most feasible solution I think... It's been more than 40 years that both sides keep defending the same policies... That's why there has been no common ground and agreement between them...


So ain't it waste of time to keep struggling just for nothing?